Brushless motor/interference?
 

Just got an Orion Vortex ESC and 4.5t brushless motor. fitted them to the car using the standard receiver and a set of brand new orion 5100 nihm batteries. At first the car cut out all the time, which I figured was down to the tamiya battery connections, I've order some better connections which are more suitable, but in the meantime I've connected the battery to the car using 240v connections, so they shouldn't cause any bottleneck. I'm finding the car runs lovely now, until it gets a short distance away from me, and then it either starts twitching itself or wont respond to controls. I have to walk closer until it responds.

I've tried moving the receiver a little which did improve the distance, but I'm really restricted as to where I put it as there's no room left on the chassis.

I'm running a 27mhz AM setup.

Can anyone shed any light on this problem? could it be interference?

Hi m8

Firstly What connecters are you using its down to the amps not the Voltage also what spedo is it because apart from the TOP end orion one i think the lowest motor you can run is a 6.5Turn so witch version is that??

What car is it in , and do you have anouther radio you can test it with??

Hope this helps
John

The ESC I have is
http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFun...n&ItemID=32103
Can cope with 3.5t or over according to the spec

At the minute I have the battery connected to the car using 240v screw connectors, what you'd use to connect a cooker to the mains. I've got some of these on order
http://www.apexmodels.com/gbu0-catsh...onnectors.html
will these be suitable?

The car is a lazer zx-5. I do have an FM radio set which I was about to return because I didn't need it.

When I push forward on the controller, the steering twitches slightly and you can feel the motor stopping and starting very briefly.

The ESC you have is a sensorless one (despite the slightly misleading way they name it). Compared to the sensored controllers most use for racing, sensorless controllers are not as smooth at initial throttle. This may be part of the problem - although I think the main problem is interference or voltage drop under load.

Diagnosing radio faults can be a bit of a nightmare though...

Try removing the equipment from the car, spreading it far apart, and testing again. If there is no glitching then you can be pretty sure it is something to do with your installation. To be honest those mains terminals you are using are not going to be very well shielded, equally you need to make sure the wires and joints are all in good condition and are not rubbing against anything that may conduct electricity (and that includes carbon fibre and carbon composite parts)

If the equipment still glitches, it is something to do with the equipment itself. Check the ESC has all the capacitors fitted as recommended. Try and substitute each part of the system for known-good alternatives and see what is at fault. I would be a little wary of the basic 27MHz AM radio, these are not always as good at resisting interference as more expensive equipment (although if it is the Kyosho radio then these are Futaba-made and are generally good quality for the price).

You also need to make sure the battery is fully charged and that you are not testing it when flat. Not only does that increase the chance of problems caused by voltage dropping under load, it is also likely to damage the cells.

Hope this helps.

That's good advice above. Those connectors should be fine, assuming they're 4mm as it doesn't say on the website. One more Q: how have you mounted the Rx aerial, including the 'spare' wire? If you run the wire out of the top of the aerial tube and double it back down, this effectively 'cancels' the signal and will reduce the range.

The Orion Vortex is a sensored esc although it will run sensorless too.

I use one which works fine using Lipos, but for some reason sometimes drops from sensored mode to sensoress when using my reasonaly old nimh's.

Thanks for all the advice so far,

I've switched from using the 27mhz am set to a 40mhz techniplus set, this included replacing the servo as well. For most part this has resolved 'most' of the issues, it certainly doesn't cut out as much as there isn't half as much servo twitching.

However a couple of problem that exist;

1) From a standstill, under full throttle, the steering veers left, every time.
2) From a distance away it still seems a little spluttery, especially under accelleration.

I've checked the settings on the ESC, and it's set not to cut out, and I've altered the power profile to be extra smooth.

I'm at a point now where I think I may either have to switch to lipo batteries(expensive) or buy a new brushed motor and ESC (maybe 10t), as I think I stand more chance of those working. I dont really want to go lipo, it's just too expensive at the minute, and the batteries I am using seemed to be the best I could get hold of.

this is just down to poor radio equipment, and like of power from the bec unit inside,

What's the easiest way to solve this problem and get the car running? Am I best of reverting to a brushed motor rather than brushless?

It seems the radio equipment that came with the car doesn't work, a seperate radio kit I've bought doesn't work. They're obviously not getting enough power, and I can't see different connectors really making a different when I have the cables screwed together with high voltage connectors at the minute.

It seems my only alternative is to go brushed, where hopefully it doesn't demand as much power. It's a shame because this motor and ESC are quick as shit off a stick, but I can't justify buying more new radio gear and upgrading to lipo batteries and a charger.

the cheaper recievers are well known for low bec voltage,

The high-end KO-based one is sensored. The cheap one linked to is not.

Brushed will be more likely to suffer from interference. The problem is more likely down to low-cost/faulty equipment than the type of equipment.

You say the radio that came with the car was faulty? Was it faulty with the kit motor and speed controller? If so, you should be talking to the shop you bought it from to get it sorted, rather than buying new gear yourself.

Acoms gear is not good unfortunately... probably a step back from the Kyosho branded gear.

The kyosho gear wasn't faulty, there was just alot more interfance than what I'm getting with the techniplus kit.

When I had the kyosho radio gear, motor and ESC, everything was fine.

It's strange that they provide a sensor cable for a non sensored ESC, why would they do that? is there any benefit to having it connected as it works with and without the cable.

I'm sorry, I'm mistaken. I'm getting confused with the other cheap one they do. It is sensored then.

Fix my problem and you're forgiven :D

But seriously, am I best of buying new radio gear? something like this?
http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFun...on&ItemID=1971

I'm wary of buying more radio gear for the problem to still exist and I end up buying more stuff to fix it. Especially when so far I've paid for the car, and just spent 200 quid on new weeks, tyres, esc motor, connectors etc. At the minute it stands me at over 400 quid and the bugger doesn't run right.

That's basically the same equipment as in the Lazer RTR anyway - not worth buying.

If you are thinking of upgrading (with sticks) I wouldn't look at anything below the Futaba 3GR, or perhaps the Sanwa Gemini 2. The Futaba in particular should be a radio for life, the Sanwa is not modular so will always be on 40MHz while everyone else is moving to 2.4gHz.

Although you should be able to get the car running on the kit gear, no reason why it shouldn't.

If you are ever in Bristol drop me a line and I will fix the car for you!

Thanks for the offer, but I'm all the way up in the north east.

A question about the batteries. The batteries are 6 cell and have cable on them. Once the new battery connectors come, am I ok just putting them on the end of the existing battery cable, or will I best best of using something thicker? The cable on the batteries at the minute is thinner than the cable being used on the ESC

Hello Littlened

I had a lazer rtr with the standard radio gear which i upgraded to a 4.5 brushless setup. I had EXACTLY the same problems as you have described.

To make things better with the 27mhz am system i put the recielved up on the bar that goes front to back in the middle. I positioned it near the back on its side so the shell could still fit.

I also fitted a Spectrum power cap, one of these.

http://www.dms-racing.com/fruzat/qax...SQL/search.asp

(Hope DMS don't mind the link)

You need a spare slot in your reciever to plug it in

Make sure you have good quality new batteries in the Handset

This all made a big enough difference for me to get it round the local track without issue.

Long term i purchased an acoms 2.4ghz wheel set and have never had a problem since.

Hope this helps

Thanks Dibble,

Was this something along the lines of the 2.4ghz you got?

http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFun...n&ItemID=28015

Did you fit the power cap to the kyosho receiver? as there's no spare slots on mine.

The acoms one I'm using now has a battery slot empty, what that do?

A further update.

I charged my batteries and tried again. Within about 3-4 metres away the car operated fine, apart from reverse which for some reason didn't work very well at all. Any further than this distance and it started to cut out.

When I took the shell off the car, the plastic had melted on the block connectors I was using, and the motor was far too hot to touch, ontop of that it seems that the solder on the motor has softened because of the heat and the wires have started to work loose, maybe I've used crap solder?

Why would the motor get hot like that, I know you can over work it by using the wrong pinion, but at the minute I'm using a 24t until my 16t arrives, which I thought wouldn't have been so bad. Could it be that it's overheating because it's struggling to get power.

The radio equipment I have comes with a battery block, if I plug this into the receiver to test, would this help me narrow down the problem. I sure it's a power issue.

The receiver at the minute is on the top desk towards the rear, but it's right next to the motor, surely that would increase any chances of interference?

[quote=littlened;253193]A further update.


Why would the motor get hot like that, I know you can over work it by using the wrong pinion, but at the minute I'm using a 24t until my 16t arrives, which I thought wouldn't have been so bad. Could it be that it's overheating because it's struggling to get power.

quote]

Mate, that is very bad and probably part of your problem. I would imagine the draw of power it is using to get going with a 24t pinion would be very high and could cause your raido gear to lose power and glitch. (anyone feel free to correct me if i am wrong)

I would not use again until you get a 16t pinion and hope you have not done any permanent damage.

With regard to reciever positioning, yes it can cause problems by the motor, but for me it kept it away from power wires and the esc. Also putting it on it's side helped.

I've disconnected everything for the time being anyway. I'll wait for the new battery connectors and the pinions to come.

Really Interesting...
I have the exact same problem on *2 cars* and ....
I have in common:
# 27MHz AM
# quite powerful BL motors (4.5t on ZX5, 5.5t on B4)
# Distance from TX is critical to these glitching issues

I don't overgear (I think...17t in ZX5, 21t in B4). Also, I have tried a data logger on the car: the voltage is not always low when glitching occurs. .

Until now, I've been blaming the TX because... I re-cycle some Kyosho perfex mini-Z TX that I thought could be low in TX power(designed for indoor).
I am about to compare my min-Z TX 27MHz AM with my proper(?) 40MHz AM sanwa radio. It will be monday when I get to the lab at work.

I will keep you posted on my findings and the possible solutions I find

Thanks, it'll be interesting to find out what your solution was.

To be honest i suspect the main problem is 27mhz AM, although not sure why...

I've ruled that one out because I'm using 40mhz AM now. I suspect the problems I'm having now will be the battery connectors and the pinion. I'll sort them out and re-solder the wiring on the motor, and with a bit of luck it'll fix the issues.

I'll let everyone know how I get on.

I have an update. The 16t pinion arrived this morning, although it looks like I got the wrong pitch because it sounds kind of rough, so I've ordered another one which should be fine. In the meantime I've used this pinion to do some testing.

Here's a link to a video showing some testing.
http://www.sr8.co.uk/rc-car.wmv

What I've found is that if I put the receiver next to the motor at the rear of the car, where it's the only place it will fit, the car cuts out when I'm about 5-6 meters away. If I move the receiver to the front of the car, away from the motor, I can walk downstairs to the other side of the house with very minimal cut out.

During the testing I checked how hot the connectors and battery were. The connectors were fine, no heat at all. The motor was hot, but I could touch it for 3 seconds. The motor temperature is probably normal, if not, it could be down to the extra stress it's having to cope with while the wrong pitch pinion is on.

Because I wasn't at full throttle when any of the cut outs occured, then I'm assuming it's not a power issue, it's interference.

Will buying 2.4ghz radio gear definitely resolve this issue? I don't want to be wasting more money.

I forgot to mention, I've also put the capacitor on the receiver as suggested yesterday, they delivered pretty quick.

You are overgeared too.

The same Orion esc in my B4 caused me problems last weekend at the Southport GP. I though it was interference because the radio seemed to keep cutting out, but knew it wasn't cos I was on 2.4gHz. Turned out I was massively overgeared and the power drain was knocking out the radio.
Massively over geared in this case was a 26t pinion, 81 (stock) spur and a 7.5. I've now dropped to 22t and the problem has gone. If I'm running 22 with a 7.5t 21 with a 5.5t must be too high. Go down to 18 or 19 and see what happens.
And a 5.5t is pretty mental in a B4 anyway.......

Hi all

From Reading this it looks like every 1 thats having a problem is massively overgeared and the power drain is knocking out the radio i have seen it hapen loads if your running a 4.5 turn motor you need about a 14-15 or pushing it a 16 (in a 4WD) and your running a what in your lazer ive forgot now was it a 23 :O im supprised it hasent cought fire or the internal solder inside the motor melted and destroyed the motor , u have been lucky wait till you get the correct pinnion before you go anywhere near that if you cant wait while your orderd one just go to a local model shop and buy one there only about 3quid also i seem to remember the lazers using a taymia pitch pinnion however i could be mistaken.

Hope This Helps

John

I'm pretty certain my issue isn't to do with drawing too much power from the motor due to incorrect gearing. I've tested the kit without the motor being attached to the car, and I still get cut outs.

It might help others on here though.

the first thing i can see in the video is that your Ariel isn't standing up in a tube, bad mistake.and any am radio will perform badly indoors no matter if its 27 or 40,

I did that on purpose because the arial mounting is near the motor. If AM performs badly indoors then that's more reason to get a new radio set because I'll be racing indoors.

Here is an update on the TX comparison:
(1)My 1988 Sanwa Dash 40MHz AM
(2)My 2002 Kyosho Perfex KT-5 (mini-Z) 27MHz AM

(1) is far more powerful TX (+10dB more on the antenna!) than (2)
(1) has much better performance at 30feet (-25dBm vs -55dBm !) than (2)

seems like modern radio regulation/legislation has forced radios to become anaemic:eh?:

This may explain some of my issues. I need more testing...

Let us know if a 2.4GHz solves your issues, I am very interested

My new 2.4ghz radio gear should arrive tomorrow, so I'll let you know.

2.4ghz radio gear fixed the problem.

Thanks for your feedback !

Sounds like I am going to get one.

Which one is it ? & how do you find it

This is what I've bought

http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFun...n&ItemID=28015

and the best thing, you don't need crystals, it automatically finds an available channel