lipo saddle packs, a poll to show feelings

[The Hoff]

Originally Posted by racingdwarf

I run a club in the EOE and our club supports the EOE regional series. My club has permitted the use of lipos for the last two years, as have many of the other clubs in the region, we have done this as this is what members wanted......and WE NEED MEMBERS. Most have bought trackpower 3200's as the are a good price,fit in most 4wd,s easly and so far compaired to cells have been very safe.

What worries me is if the BRCA decide these batterys are not legal all who have them will just say "Oh well sod the regionals then" I will just race at club, we only need about 6-8 people to think this and 4wd regionals wont be worth running round here, And if those same people want to use the same batterys in there 2wd that will be the end of that two. Are there any other region's with this problem?

We already have someone running a championship series next year in the region that lipos are legal in, so were do you think all would go?

It looks like Chris Longs proposal was trying to cover what you are saying

Copy of text taken from lipo proposal -

(Rationale – To allow the use of Lithium Polymer (Lipo) batteries at 1/10 Off Road Regional and National events in 2009. Many club racers are already using Lipo batteries at club meetings; if Lipo batteries are not allowed to be used at Regional and National meetings a growing number of members will be excluded from racing at these meetings.

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by TheRacePlace

It seems to me trakpower build a cell to fit the car there were no regulations at the time on dimensions so they made it to fit the cars,by default that size would be similar to nimh pack dimension, currently it is the only hard cased saddle available, we then say we want to use them and some bright spark says ok but they must be this size which makes the only cell out there unusable!!. you cannot argue that the manufacturers should have made them to the correct specification as there wasn't one!, they made them to the only spec required ie they fit the cars.

i did try to point this out prior to the AGM and thought common sense would prevail.

its not difficult thing surely. we simply propose to relax the size rule on saddle configuration packs until 2010, problem solved or does something that simple cause a problem!!
john

like you said some bright spark

[jim76]

Originally Posted by jcb

yep!! I looked into buying a new car and LIPO's and couldn't warrant the change over costs.

2 packs of 3200,s and a trakpower charger for little over £110. with a balancer for under £150.

3 packs of orion SHO - £180, with no charger!

even if you need a novak smart stop it's still cheaper than 3 packs of cells, and most national racers would have 5-6 packs.

that argument holds no water any more as the prices have come down since the early days.

[Doomanic]

Your maths is a little off, two packs of Trakpower 3200's and a charger is £130, decent NiMH's were available for as little as £30 per pack so the cost to change is potentially more. Add a balancer and you are up to £160ish.
However, the ease of use and lifespan far outweigh the difference in price.

Bring on the list so I can make the change to LiPo!

[jim76]

Originally Posted by Doomanic

Your maths is a little off, two packs of Trakpower 3200's and a charger is £130,

depends where you buy, lol!

[bert digler]

i thought they where 45quid a pack and 40 for the charger hence 130

[Doomanic]

Originally Posted by jim76

depends where you buy, lol!

It certainly does, but comparing discounted LiPo's to top price NiMH's is a little biased. In fact, if you are comparing like with like, the 30C Trakpowers are £54 per pack, making the total £148 narrowing the gap even more.

[Darren Boyle]

Agreed, if things are to be compared lets at least use comparable equipment and equally discounted figures............

[_sleigh_]

Originally Posted by TheRacePlace

It seems to me trakpower build a cell to fit the car there were no regulations at the time on dimensions so they made it to fit the cars,by default that size would be similar to nimh pack dimension, currently it is the only hard cased saddle available, we then say we want to use them and some bright spark says ok but they must be this size which makes the only cell out there unusable!!. you cannot argue that the manufacturers should have made them to the correct specification as there wasn't one!, they made them to the only spec required ie they fit the cars.

i did try to point this out prior to the AGM and thought common sense would prevail.

its not difficult thing surely. we simply propose to relax the size rule on saddle configuration packs until 2010, problem solved or does something that simple cause a problem!!
john

I'm not sure I entirely agree John.

If you take the dimensional requirements for NiMh cells, each cell needs to be 23 x 43mm. So for a LiPo saddle pack being built 'per rules', I would think the logical sizes would have been 23 x 43 x 69mm. (69 = 23 x 3). That gives a total length for two end-to-end of 138mm. With the addition of battery bars on NiMh cells then yeah you could claim an extra couple of 'mm' on the width, but still this would be within the LiPo width of 47mm.

So, how can any manufacturer now complain, had they worked to those logical guidelines then any cell would now be legal under the new LiPo rules.

[SHY]

OK, what if we put the length issue aside for a while...

What about height? If I want to put a 5500 mAh pack into my car, making it too tall - what's the problem with that?

It's not any competitive advantage - why does this need to be regulated?

As long as the manufacturers state measurements and maybe also state a list of what cars a given battery will fit directly, I really can't see the problem. It's merely a matter of information.

Why I want a big pack? I want the extra runtime for practise! More enjoyment!

This is Off-road! Runtime and power is a non issue since many years now! In Norway we are doing 7 minutes heat from 1. april 2009...

So the question is: WHO ARE THESE RULES MADE FOR? WHAT GOOD ARE THEY? In my book rules have some clear intentions:
-level the competition
-provide safety

Technology is not going to stop progressing... further down the road the battery industry will make new & better batteries - does it really matter if they have a different shape?

My guess is that nobody's going to run NiMH in 2 years... and we're still going to regulate all future batteries from their original shape? This is mixing apples with oranges!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by _sleigh_

I'm not sure I entirely agree John.

If you take the dimensional requirements for NiMh cells, each cell needs to be 23 x 43mm. So for a LiPo saddle pack being built 'per rules', I would think the logical sizes would have been 23 x 43 x 69mm. (69 = 23 x 3). That gives a total length for two end-to-end of 138mm. With the addition of battery bars on NiMh cells then yeah you could claim an extra couple of 'mm' on the width, but still this would be within the LiPo width of 47mm.

So, how can any manufacturer now complain, had they worked to those logical guidelines then any cell would now be legal under the new LiPo rules.

phil

cost, and using the cells that are available, if the cells were out there then they would have been used, the internal cells in the saddles have to be smaller than the sticks, we are talking 2mm and thats for an extra two ends of cases
if it was that easy why are so many producing saddles that dont fit the dimensions, only one i know of and they had to lift the capacity limit so it would fir in the "rules"
i had some pre made 4200 and with the battery bars on they were a very tight fit in my b4.

all we the racers are asking for is some leaniance or common sence, you as a brca officer are in your role to promote the sport of model car racing (same as i am), in my opinion this fiasco is NOT doing that.
its not like there were rules to follow and build packs too, or for manufactures to follow, there are not many cars that these packs do not fit in, were talking no capacity or performance benifits.

somtimes sections need to make a decision on thier own in the best interest of thier racers, just look at the poll results and names voting..........

mark

[jcb]

W

Originally Posted by jim76

2 packs of 3200,s and a trakpower charger for little over £110. with a balancer for under £150.

3 packs of orion SHO - £180, with no charger!

even if you need a novak smart stop it's still cheaper than 3 packs of cells, and most national racers would have 5-6 packs.

that argument holds no water any more as the prices have come down since the early days.

You need to read the whole sentence, and the majority of my original post for it to make sense and not just take part of it and put up an argument.

LIPO cells DO NOT fit in my current 4wd, which means buying a new car and at my last reckoning that would set me back at least £300 with some spares. You have also not took into account that because the LIPO won't fit in my car there is no chance of selling it at a reasonable price to help finance my new purchases.

Oh and on the price argument you need to keep things consistent, as has been previously stated!!! But by shopping around I bought factory team spec Ener-G cells last year (in the UK) for a massive £45 a pack which is £135 for three packs making them cheaper than your LIPO calculation.

So with your calculation of LIPO at £150, plus my new car at £300 makes a total of £450. By staying NIMH, even if we take the price at full wack of £60 and four sets of cells (£240) I still save myself £210, by not going LIPO. So if anyone says LIPO is cheaper, it isn’t from my point of view At the present time unless you already have the electrics and car I can't see that going LIPO is cheap at all, or has any advantage over someone racing NIMH's!!!


I think the point in some ways has been missed in that next year you can still run NIMH's. We haven't got to run LIPO so being LEGAL to race next year should be even easier as there is going to be even more choice of cells to chose from.

[SHY]

What 4WD do you run jcb?

I defo think 4WD is better to drive with LiPo (lighter). But for 2WD you need some ballast to get rear grip, unless on astro turf with high grip.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by jcb

W


You need to read the whole sentence, and the majority of my original post for it to make sense and not just take part of it and put up an argument.

LIPO cells DO NOT fit in my current 4wd, which means buying a new car and at my last reckoning that would set me back at least £300 with some spares. You have also not took into account that because the LIPO won't fit in my car there is no chance of selling it at a reasonable price to help finance my new purchases.

Oh and on the price argument you need to keep things consistent, as has been previously stated!!! But by shopping around I bought factory team spec Ener-G cells last year (in the UK) for a massive £45 a pack which is £135 for three packs making them cheaper than your LIPO calculation.

So with your calculation of LIPO at £150, plus my new car at £300 makes a total of £450. By staying NIMH, even if we take the price at full wack of £60 and four sets of cells (£240) I still save myself £210, by not going LIPO. So if anyone says LIPO is cheaper, it isn’t from my point of view At the present time unless you already have the electrics and car I can't see that going LIPO is cheap at all, or has any advantage over someone racing NIMH's!!!


I think the point in some ways has been missed in that next year you can still run NIMH's IF YOU HAVE GOT THEM. We haven't got to run LIPO so being LEGAL to race next year should be even easier as there is going to be even more choice of cells to chose from.taken that you already have a charger/balancer to go backwards

added some bits you have missed out!

[DCM]

I just don't see why, the EB can't just amend the rule to contain a MAX size for a stick pack and a MAX size for one half of a saddle pack, that would be easy, wouldn't it.....

[jcb]

Originally Posted by SHY

What 4WD do you run jcb?

An Atomic Carbon B44, I think you can just about the Tekin brushless ESC in but thats it and I ain't going to be going out and buying one of those.



Mark I can see where you are coming from if you only have LIPO, however I would think that 98% of electric racers out there already have equipment capable of charging and maintaining NIMH rather than the other way round.


Just to put the cat amoung the pigeons:- Maybe people should have looked at the Trakpower advert's in the magazines such as Racer and Race Car that amazingly already state that their stick LIPO's are BRCA Approved but the saddles are not!!!

[SHY]

Atomized B44 with a 2+2+2 layout is a challenge, yes! I've got it myself and went for a LiPo special version which takes 3200 TrakPower saddles.

Anyway, those who want can still run NiMH - and will.

As to keeping a set of size restrictions for OR the only thing that can be gained from that is a 100% direct fit in most mainstream chassises.

But if someone want to carry excess amps - why stop them doing that? I love my Dremel and find mods a big part of the fun...

How about simply splitting the list in half? One part with approved cells that are within the size limits. And one half with bigger ones that still are tested as to crash, shorting and overcharging. Then it will be crystal clear as to whether a pack fit your car or not...

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by jcb

An Atomic Carbon B44, I think you can just about the Tekin brushless ESC in but thats it and I ain't going to be going out and buying one of those.



Mark I can see where you are coming from if you only have LIPO, however I would think that 98% of electric racers out there already have equipment capable of charging and maintaining NIMH rather than the other way round.


Just to put the cat amoung the pigeons:- Maybe people should have looked at the Trakpower advert's in the magazines such as Racer and Race Car that amazingly already state that their stick LIPO's are BRCA Approved but the saddles are not!!!

no body is xlaiming they were legal, and they could not have been as the brca is only stick packs and there were no rules for saddle only stick statinga max length for the pack, saddles as you know have two packs

[Lee]

Has anyone said "officially" what the lipo saddle sizes are and that those sizes are final?




Personally im getting really bored of this topic, a lot of people are acting like touring car drivers

[_sleigh_]

@Lee