rumours rumours

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Lee

Mark,

Do you think this one is a better proposal then?

Would you still be happy to second it?

Originally Posted by Cockerill

Do we need as many rules as what is already set by the BRCA for touring cars. Is there really a need for size and capacity limitations in off-road? We can easily make 5 mins on a 3200 Lipo and we can already easily over power our cars. If people want to try and shoe horn a 10000mah battery into there car then go for it, it wouldn't bother me as I see no advantage.

Could we not just use simple rules such as:

Max 7.4v
Must be Hard Cased
+ The Safety Rules as mentioned by BRCA/ROAR Rules

i like toms rules, why have to police cells more then 7.4 and hard case, both easy to check for lipo, nimh use brca eb list, or if the lipo need apoving on rb list then specify no size/capacity limits just hard cased and 7.4v and on brca eb list

[SHY]

Note! You can write several different proposals, and send'em all in!

EFRA AGMs are very long and tiring, and the more "complete" the proposals are the better!

1) seconding
2) voting

Rewriting proposals at the AGM is pain... and in principle should not be done!

We could at least have one simple proposal and one "full ROAR adoption"?

Originally Posted by Lee

Yes they did shy, that was where the 25mm dimension came from


I think the proposal in post #135 is about right

I agree then, f*** that, just state 7,4 volt max, hardcasing & EFRA approved battery list...

Btw. in the UK, you use the EFRA battery list right? You don't use a "BRCA list"?

[Cockerill]

I think we still need an 'EB List' as such with Lipo. Just the same way the NiMH one works with new cells added once a year. This makes it very easy for the racers as once they have seen the list and got the cells they know they will do all season, without a new cell coming out that is better. Possibly with some re-wording to allow 'new batteries' to be allowed at the Indoor Finals as happened this year, as the Indoor finals is closer to the next years nationals than the previous years, if you get me?

We also need some control on this 'EB List' in the way of safety of the packs. The ROAR rules have a lot of safety tests to ensure that the packs are not dangerous. These are rules that we need to look at/adopt, but they are probably best set by the people who know what they are talking about, not on internet forums!

Regarding a proposal for EFRA I've no idea how it works, but I would like to see Lipo passed for off-road for next year. Preferably to the same rules as whatever the BRCA would be so that we have some consistency.

[SHY]

There's nothing wrong with doing it here and now. All proposals come from racers. And there has always been too much lack of influence and interest when it comes to this. This is a very fruitful discussion! Don't say "others know best" - there is no "others"! It's just you & me! There's no "men in dark suits" doing the thinking for us! It may very well be a guy who could have been a Beetle that makes that brilliant new proposal! (nice cut!)

In the past batteries, mufflers, bodies etc were constantly added. So I myself actually proposed to "freeze" the list for one whole year at the time some years ago... and it was passed!

I guess we can leave the testing of batteries to EFRA, they already do this for NiMH. But we should spec what types of LiPo is legal.

Then again, just saying we impose a 7,4 V limit and use the EFRA battery list would work just fine.

Actually, for 1:10 OR, we could just leave it totally open and just have a battery list... If someone wants to run with 20 volts who cares?

[Cockerill]

Originally Posted by SHY

Actually, for 1:10 OR, we could just leave it totally open and just have a battery list... If someone wants to run with 20 volts who cares?

Now that would open a can of Worms . Unfortunately I can't see it been passed.

What is the EFRA Battery List tho? At the moment they have no rules for Lipo so we need to make them. What I'm saying is that we should define the rules for what we are allowed to run eg. Max 7.4volts, Hard case, but we need the safety rules to be set by people who know what they are talking about.

If you read the ROAR rules they have a long list of what tests the packs must pass before they can be added to the List. We need tests like this to ensure the cells are up to a certain quality. These are the things that need to be decided by the people in the know.

[glypo]

Well yes, at the moment the BRCA and EFRA approved list are two of the same thing. So really we need EFRA to get moving on LiPo. However having a BRCA only list until EFRA do one is a good idea.

Has anyone tried contacting the Paul Worsley, who makes the BRCA and EFRA lists, about how it would be best to test LiPo etc? He is the one who has written the preliminary LiPo rules on the BRCA website.... so I suggest people start there in their quest to get LiPo race legal.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SHY

Note! You can write several different proposals, and send'em all in!

EFRA AGMs are very long and tiring, and the more "complete" the proposals are the better!

1) seconding
2) voting

Rewriting proposals at the AGM is pain... and in principle should not be done!

We could at least have one simple proposal and one "full ROAR adoption"?



I agree then, f*** that, just state 7,4 volt max, hardcasing & EFRA approved battery list...

Btw. in the UK, you use the EFRA battery list right? You don't use a "BRCA list"?

in the uk we use the brca EB list
the rule needs to be simple precise and to the point other wise it may get amended on the floor.
as far as im concerned im only interested in getting the brca to accept lipo so any proposal i back is for the BRCA agm unless there is a rule in the brca to aadpot efraa rules

sorry but im in the brca, thats where my vote goes

tom the lipo list for tc is updated as and when cells are submitted, its not anual at the min

[Cockerill]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

tom the lipo list for tc is updated as and when cells are submitted, its not anual at the min

Yeah, I was under the impression as it is a trail class as such they decided to use a list that can be updated throughout the year as the packs develop. However, for off-road I would like to see the usual format return of one list a year.

[MattW]

Tom, I suspect (and it's no more than that) that the "floating" nature, is only likely to be in place for this year - with it being the first. I really think that the easiest thing is just go with the EB spec, rules and list. No need to duplicate.

Bearing in mind who the off rd chairman is, and who is heavily involved with the EB................makes sense to combine.

[SHY]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

in the uk we use the brca EB list
the rule needs to be simple precise and to the point other wise it may get amended on the floor.
as far as im concerned im only interested in getting the brca to accept lipo so any proposal i back is for the BRCA agm unless there is a rule in the brca to aadpot efraa rules

sorry but im in the brca, thats where my vote goes

tom the lipo list for tc is updated as and when cells are submitted, its not anual at the min

OK, so UK is an island... but come on!

This is something drivers in all countries in Europe will benefit from. And you have a lot of UK drivers going to the EC, which will be run by EFRA rules. And as already stated the BRCA list will in essence be the EFRA list. One should always propose a new rule BOTH to your national association AND EFRA. In order to keep things simple. Most countries adapt all new EFRA rules/changes as well.

If someone could have a chat with Paul that would be great!

[Chrislong]

I think there is some concern from the BRCA/EB of Lipos not fitting all cars, but its the racers (i.e. the BRCA members, specifically the ones who own the cars) who make the proposals... the question is, will the racers (see brackets above) who can't get Lipo in be against the Lipo proposal?

Cars such as the S4, Aero, especially, where the prop gets in the way of any Lipo pack will be hard to modify to make the packs fit. But with a Lipo rule, the development of cars will be such that they'll all fit Lipo packs eventually.

Id like a ruling of hard cased with details, inclusion of saddle Lipo packs, therefore two sets of dimensions for stick/saddle. With Lipo list update inline with cell list - 1st April every year.

Maximum voltage for powering the car by whichever type, 7.4v.

From whatever proposal is put forward, the BRCA will fill in the blanks.

Chris

[Chris Doughty]

I think there is a need for dimensions, like Chris said, mainly for car fitments. - fitting under battery straps in 2WD for example.

with regard to cars with non standard mountings, my Atomic AE B44 would not fit LiPo without some adjustments. but as long as you don't ban nmhi thats fine.

[SHY]

I don't see why we need size restrictions. There will be the NiMH cells and plenty of LiPos that will fit. If someone wants to use a high capacity LiPo pack, why not let him? Perfect for the average budget racer!

It will also be in the manufacturers interest to make packs that fit most cars to sell as much as they can.

Runtime will never ever become a problem in 1:10 OR, and it won't be faster with a big pack...

[Cockerill]

I don't see why we need a specific maximum size. The main reason I don't think we need one is if we have saddle packs that means we need yet another set of dimensions. If a pack does not fit the most common cars, no one is going to buy it, therefore it is kind of a non existent problem.

By having set dimensions the manufacturer's will push the limits of cell size within these limits. By having size free they can use whatever size they want, but if they want to sell it, it has to fit in the cars.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

I think there is some concern from the BRCA/EB of Lipos not fitting all cars, but its the racers who make the proposals... the question is, will the racers who can;t get Lipo in be against the Lipo proposal?

Cars such as the S4, Aero, especially, where the prop gets in the way of any Lipo pack will be hard to modify to make the packs fit. But with a Lipo rule, the development of cars will be such that they'll all fit Lipo packs eventually.

Id like a ruling of hard cased with details, inclusion of saddle Lipo packs, therefore two sets of dimensions for stick/saddle. With Lipo list update inline with cell list - 1st April every year.

Maximum voltage for powering the car by whichever type, 7.4v.

From whatever proposal is put forward, the BRCA will fill in the blanks.

Chris

chris i dont think suc c cell is less than 22mm? trackpower 3200 saddle will be 20mm same as stick those needing small packs can buy em, those who can use larger should be allowed to

Originally Posted by DoughtyUK.net

I think there is a need for dimensions, like Chris said, mainly for car fitments. - fitting under battery straps in 2WD for example.

with regard to cars with non standard mountings, my Atomic AE B44 would not fit LiPo without some adjustments. but as long as you don't ban nmhi thats fine.

chris see my post re b4 fittment, two longer grub screws and 30mm saddles fit in a b4

Originally Posted by Cockerill

I don't see why we need a specific maximum size. The main reason I don't think we need one is if we have saddle packs that means we need yet another set of dimensions. If a pack does not fit the most common cars, no one is going to buy it, therefore it is kind of a non existent problem.

By having set dimensions the manufacturer's will push the limits of cell size within these limits. By having size free they can use whatever size they want, but if they want to sell it, it has to fit in the cars.

fully agree tom, if lipo becomes the norm manufactures will design cars to suit the best packs too

[Chris Doughty]

Mark, I completely agree about fitting in the B4, I have some of the massive 8000's in my B4.

not sure they fit in am RB5 or XXX though.

I think the OD of a subC cell is 23mm so it makes sense for the size rules to be of similar size to an assembled 6 cell side-by-side pack like most 2WD's run.

I think the LiPo rules should be that any 'complete' battery should comply with those dimensioned, for example, the saddle if placed end to end as you would in a 'stick' 2WD car, should be the same as a single brick LiPo

this would also allow slightly more crazy configs such as 2+2+2 style cells that run in the S4 or 4+2 that run in the X5 to be made up from LiPo cells.

as long as when put 'together' it does not exceed the HxWxL measurements

[SHY]

But for the time being it's only 3,7 volts pr. cell... = 2 cells

For the X-5 it's better to have it all on the right side, gives perfect balance.

The S4 is more difficult, but since weight is less you can just compensate with lead weights or a weight plate. I'm sure J will figure this out though!

The 2 saddles = 1 stick is a good thought!

All of them should emulate knobs as well!

But I'm sure the manufacturers will see the need for all this. And you can just choose the pack you prefer

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DoughtyUK.net

Mark, I completely agree about fitting in the B4, I have some of the massive 8000's in my B4.

not sure they fit in am RB5 or XXX though.

I think the OD of a subC cell is 23mm so it makes sense for the size rules to be of similar size to an assembled 6 cell side-by-side pack like most 2WD's run.

I think the LiPo rules should be that any 'complete' battery should comply with those dimensioned, for example, the saddle if placed end to end as you would in a 'stick' 2WD car, should be the same as a single brick LiPo

this would also allow slightly more crazy configs such as 2+2+2 style cells that run in the S4 or 4+2 that run in the X5 to be made up from LiPo cells.

as long as when put 'together' it does not exceed the HxWxL measurements

saddle is a strugle to get small as the cell configuration is the problem, could make ur 2 = 2 = 2 but would prob be just 1300mah

saddle in my experience needs a different look at for dimensions

[Chrislong]

Sometimes I look at the topic and think to myself "This is only toy car racing". Perhaps some people (not neccessarily you guys) take it more seriously than I do, and they definately should not do that, as to do that removes the reason why we started this hobby in the first place and why we're still doing it now, and thats for escapism from our student/work/family life doing something very enjoyable with equal minded people.

Random I know. if anyone takes the above to heart then I mean no offense. So lets not loose our minds on this.

if we want Lipo, lets propose Lipo, then attend the AGM

[SHY]

So my girlfriend keeps saying... Spot on Chris!

Personally I just wanna race and have fun! AND with as little maintenance, costs & hassle as possible.

B/L was a blessing!
LiPo would be #2 blessing!
Maintenance free diffs and I would die a happy man...

Rules should be kept to an absolute minimum! Even race organizers and judges are confused these days...

Still, we missed the LiPo train this year... let's make sure we get on the next one!