Introduction of Lipo???

[racingdwarf]

Originally Posted by jcb

I know the following may seem like I am completely against LIPO or making use of the latest technology, but I am NOT!!! However I do feel that it needs to be looked at with more than just a theoretical performance advantage in mind.

The big reasons for me at present being against LIPO is that:

1) They don’t fit in my 4wd and others without some serious modification, thus increasing the cost to either get a new car or chassis made, defeating the object that I would save money because I only have to buy a couple of packs.

2) May put new comers off, as the initial price seems slightly higher ok so in the long run you save money, but is a beginner going to be looking long term straight away?

3) LIPO’s all seem different sizes for what ever reason, and despite when they first came out it was said they were all the same performance you can now get 20c, 30c or what ever bringing in the same performance differences and increased prices comparable to sport and competition NIMH’

4) Could cause issues for shops with stock of equipment that is no longer popular with racers.

5) I (along with quite a few others) rely on selling my season old batteries at the end of the year to a club / regional racer to help finance my next years purchases. This is either going to end up in me selling them at a seriously low price or not even be able to shift them as the club / regional racer will prefer the ease of use and apparent performance from LIPO. Also as Racingdwarf has said makes equipment such as dischargers almost worthless.

6) Although there may be no significant performance advantage on tracks such as Worksop, Kidderminster or Stotfold that are either low grip or relatively small and technical an advantage would surely be seen at places with tracks of similar size to Oswestry and Talywain. I know in our region we have two tracks where an advantage is had by running brushless, let alone having a slightly lighter car with a smidge more voltage.

7) This is a bit more general and could include the large capacity cells and brushless motors but I feel it takes away some of the driving skills that were required to last a 5 minute race, everyone can now have a really quick car for 5 minutes. Which isn’t always a good thing. Do you really want to be trying to avoid potential unguided missiles as a newcomer gets sucked into thinking that they need LIPO and 4.5 brushless to be competitive.

8) Scrutineering could take longer and be made more difficult.

9) Increase in the number of rules.

10) Certain clubs may chose to get more racing in as LIPO don’t require the maintenance and apparent cooling down period after they have been used. I know it’s already been mentioned in our region that because we only have 3 heats on a good day that we could race every 20 minutes eeek, which is just impractical for anyone not having a LIPO.

So to summarise for me to be able to run LIPO for next year I would have to
1) Change my 4wd chassis
2) Get a LIPO charger and balancer thingy
3) Buy a LIPO (obvious I know)
4) Buy a LIPO charging pouch
5) I can’t sell my old cells, which wouldn’t be competitive against new cells or LIPO as the voltage and run time have dropped off.
6) My discharger and charger are worth almost nothing, as anyone buying something would get one that’s LIPO compatible.
7) It would probably be a good idea to get a voltage thingy for the ESC too as from what people say LIPO don’t like going to flat.

Therefore I reckon it will cost me more than all my NIMH’s cost me this year. I know eventually I will change over like I did with brushless, but I don’t think it’s as cheap as everyone makes out!!

Man....Slow day at work? some good point tho

[jcb]

yep, been quiet all week though tomorrow is going to be hell

I think more points than just the apparent performance advantage and the fact that they don't fit in all the cars need to be covered.

All I can say is that I feel sorry for who ever has to write the rules, scrutinise the cars and the shops for what to stock as the clubs could end up racing to one thing and the BRCA to another, reminds me of stockcar racing with Spedeworth and trackstar, same classes just different rules and all that does is spread your racers out even further. Also makes it difficult for us racers that run on a tight budget to know what the best option is for our hard earned cash

[racingdwarf]

I may not be 100% pro lipo, BUT the BRCA are going to have to bring them in a some time as they are the future of the rc battery industry.How and when is the question.

Oh yer....JCB you know I will give you a 10quid a set for your cells

[JohnM]

Why not allow the use of LiPos in Regionals next year, with a view to bringing them in for National in 2010? due to the cell list this year allowing 2007 cells at Regionals for 2008 only, alot of us who don't do the Nationals, would have to be buying new cells anyway, why not let us buy something worth having, ie LiPo.

Didn't the same sort of thing happen with brushless a few years back, Regionals one year, Nationals the next?

To quote a friend of mine, "not allowing LiPos in Regionals next year, would be like lighting your house with candles"

[Lee]

Originally Posted by jcb

clubs could end up racing to one thing and the BRCA to another, reminds me of stockcar racing with Spedeworth and trackstar, same classes just different rules

This happened a few years ago in on road when one series and class allowed stock metal hydride cells and others didnt, if you raced 2 series then you needed 2 different types of cells to be competitive

[mobile chicane]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

I'm sure I've seen B44's with them too!?

Dave

I've got the trakpower 4800's in my b44 no problem, extend battery posts by 1 cm and in they pop just add a bit of weight to balance the car and off you go

[Benh]

Originally Posted by jcb

1) They don’t fit in my 4wd and others without some serious modification, thus increasing the cost to either get a new car or chassis made, defeating the object that I would save money because I only have to buy a couple of packs.

What happens when someone else has new team car with layout and geometry is a leap forward and is far superior than the rest. You say, "no you can't race that car mine is inferior" - OR - do you go to you manufacturer and say - I need a competitive car. Make a new chassis to incorporate xyz. Then the manufacturer has an upgrade part to sell to all those buying a car based on your results (Why sponsor you if this is any different). Upgrades hold the sales up whilst a new car is being developed. Everyone is a winner except those not wanting to change.

As far as having to alter battery posts. I see bulk heads, wishbones, drive shafts dremel'd and altered, changing shocks to different manufacturers, drilling pistons. If these same people can't drill a hole and move a battery post I would be very surprised.

Originally Posted by jcb

2) May put new comers off, as the initial price seems slightly higher ok so in the long run you save money, but is a beginner going to be looking long term straight away?

Newcomers will either buy second hand, as they do now. And in this case is less likely to get a set of duds - which is exactly what you get when buying NiMh second hand.

Originally Posted by jcb

4) Could cause issues for shops with stock of equipment that is no longer popular with racers.

LiPo's haven't crept up on the world and appeared out of a worm hole. If I ran my business without an eye on the future I too would get a pinch by not being on the ball. But it will only be a problem on those stores that have overstocked. How would you feel about a local shop who had a massive stock of 56k modems - You would say, "Didn't you see the broadband revolution?"

Originally Posted by jcb

5) I (along with quite a few others) rely on selling my season old batteries at the end of the year to a club / regional racer to help finance my next years purchases. This is either going to end up in me selling them at a seriously low price or not even be able to shift them as the club / regional racer will prefer the ease of use and apparent performance from LIPO. Also as Racingdwarf has said makes equipment such as dischargers almost worthless.

We all do. But the prospect of LiPo's is killing the market - They haven't been approved yet. So it's the market force - NOT - the approval lists that is driving the price down. By them not allowing LiPo's next year only delays the inevitable, it will not bring the second hand value up.

Besides, you want the price to go up, so you can sell your soon to be worthless gear to a noob at a higher rate - that they will then lose on very soon after. How disenfranchised will they be?

Originally Posted by jcb

6) Although there may be no significant performance advantage on tracks such as Worksop, Kidderminster or Stotfold that are either low grip or relatively small and technical an advantage would surely be seen at places with tracks of similar size to Oswestry and Talywain. I know in our region we have two tracks where an advantage is had by running brushless, let alone having a slightly lighter car with a smidge more voltage.

More voltage? Your cars are rated at 7.2v - What do your matched cells, that are overcharged kick out. Not 7.2 I am sure.

Originally Posted by jcb

7) This is a bit more general and could include the large capacity cells and brushless motors but I feel it takes away some of the driving skills that were required to last a 5 minute race, everyone can now have a really quick car for 5 minutes. Which isn’t always a good thing. Do you really want to be trying to avoid potential unguided missiles as a newcomer gets sucked into thinking that they need LIPO and 4.5 brushless to be competitive.

This I disagree. Run time should never be a determining factor of driving skill. Driving skill is by definition the ability to drive skillfully - Not driving to see how much longer you can extend battery run times.

Originally Posted by jcb

8) Scrutineering could take longer and be made more difficult.

How - Why?. There will be an approved list. This doesn't make sense. Manufacturer labels, clearly packaged, products being widely accessible etc etc?

Originally Posted by jcb

9) Increase in the number of rules.

This is the job of the BRCA - They write the rules based on the long term benefits of the sport/ hobby. And really, what needs to be typed. Most of it's already written. Don't charge above 1C - Use a balancer and make sure they are on the approved list.

Originally Posted by jcb

10) Certain clubs may chose to get more racing in as LIPO don’t require the maintenance and apparent cooling down period after they have been used. I know it’s already been mentioned in our region that because we only have 3 heats on a good day that we could race every 20 minutes eeek, which is just impractical for anyone not having a LIPO.

You can run 3 races in 20 minutes. But before we get into that one as I agree, it's not practical at the competitive regional/ national level. Having one run per hour is too long. This will address the balance. Peaking cells is to negate the resistance in cells - LiPo has next to Zero. Brilliant!

Originally Posted by jcb

So to summarise for me to be able to run LIPO for next year I would have to....
.......
7) It would probably be a good idea to get a voltage thingy for the ESC too as from what people say LIPO don’t like going to flat.

Once again - I bought a GTB Novak ESC (Spread Spektrum) - it has one pre-installed because the market was leaning toward LiPo, I bought one that was (I hope) future proof.

It's not just price - It will be cheaper in the long run. Once you have the equipment, your consumables costs will drop.

As a representative you must be aware that 1 - this hobby/sport needs new blood. Brushless, LiPo's are all a step in the right direction. It's going to cost you personally a little more, but it's not just about you.

Secondly, you browse these forums and must have seen the steady ramping up of Trakpowers marketing, their sponsorships, prize giveaways etc. It's a clear signal when a company of a new technology does any of this, change is on the horizon. Watching Oople sales section over the past couple of months - the amount of people shipping out NiMh cells, chargers etc has all increased. They all saw it coming and made the sales getting the highest market value.

And finally. Those who appear to oppose LiPos are old hands. As a similie, it's the same as listening to Cantankerous Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be young. Or in this case, Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be a Noob. This hobby is a Sub-Culture, it's very difficult to get into. It's about fun, driving skills, sociability and getting some newcomers to make up for dwindling numbers. Make it easier, make it level on technology and the driving standards will go up. Or maybe this is your advantage and the fear is, you'll lose it?

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by Benh

And finally. Those who appear to oppose LiPos are old hands. As a similie, it's the same as listening to Cantankerous Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be young. Or in this case, Old Timers that have forgotten what it's like to be a Noob. This hobby is a Sub-Culture, it's very difficult to get into. It's about fun, driving skills, sociability and getting some newcomers to make up for dwindling numbers. Make it easier, make it level on technology and the driving standards will go up. Or maybe this is your advantage and the fear is, you'll lose it?

And finally...

There is nothing quite so sure of their own invincibility as the young. You need to remember that if you haven't personally experienced something, you can't possibly understand it. As you are not old, you don't know...

That the old never forget what it's like to be young. The reason they get cantankerous, as you put it, is because the young have no idea what it's like to be older, and they have no experience to draw on when they say what they say. The old know that youth is wasted on the young. We do remember what it is like to be young, and a noob, and your almost unbelievable arrogance in assuming we don't is beyond decent standards of behaviour. The world doesn't revolve around you...

"Make it easier, make it level on technology..." fantastic idea - can you show me any sport, hobby or business where it is? No. The Soviet Union spent 70 years making millions miserable (and killing millions, too) to prove that you cannot level the playing field. I've been in this hobby over 30 years - it's never been level on anything, and better people than you and me have tried. LiPo is not a leveller, it is a divider - it divides those who can afford to convert from those who can't.

My fear is this - LiPo is a transient technology waiting for A123, Lithium and other battery technologies to mature. As far as car manufacturers and portable electronics are concerned, it is a dead technology - their money is going into these other technologies for development. You are making people invest in something that in three years time will be obsolete. If I had to throw a couple of hundred pounds at my hobby again, I'd be pissed off, not having any fun.

While you put me down as a Cantankerous Old Timer, I'll put you down as an Arrogant Young Ignoramus. My deep joy in this situation is that you cannot learn what I know - you will just have to wait until you are older - no matter how hard you try; age and treachery will always outwit youth and exuberance! When you get off your high horse and make this hobby inclusive of everyone, I'll get off mine.

[LBC]

Deja vu or what!!
Go back a few years and we heard the same old negative drivel regarding Nimhs....."I'll have to bin my nicad charger" etc, etc. Total tosh!
It has always been this way....that's what technology is all about....going forwards.
The manufacturers will adapt to fit the new technology as they have always done in the past; and we will not bin our old components, we will sell them on to someone else -because there is always someone else who'll want them!
A certain contributor to this thread was dishing-out the same old negative crap about brushless motors a year ago - he's got one now!
Slowone, it's time you put aside The Beatles and start listening to QOTSA!
Yours,
Cantankerous Jim.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by LBC

Deja vu or what!!
Go back a few years and we heard the same old negative drivel regarding Nimhs....."I'll have to bin my nicad charger" etc, etc. Total tosh!
It has always been this way....that's what technology is all about....going forwards.
The manufacturers will adapt to fit the new technology as they have always done in the past; and we will not bin our old components, we will sell them on to someone else -because there is always someone else who'll want them!
A certain contributor to this thread was dishing-out the same old negative crap about brushless motors a year ago - he's got one now!
Slowone, it's time you put aside The Beatles and start listening to QOTSA!
Yours,
Cantankerous Jim.

spot on jim

[Lee]

WOW, look what Cockerill has started again, first it was tyres and now lipo`s

I think a lot of people on here have very valid points for and against lipo?

Personally i will be using them in anger for the first time over the winter and i like the idea of them because it will allow me to use 2 cars on the same day, Easy

BUT............

I will have to keep my Nimh cells and use them for regionals which is a bit of a ball ache but thats life.

I never actually thought about it up until a few days ago but i have just replaced my gear over the last month, ie new charger/equaliser etc but didnt really think that lipos wont need to be equalised. but i also think that some tracks will suit nimh better next year and some will benefit from lipo cells.

Will this become a tuning option? Its easy to swap between them in 2wd but 4wd may become a bit of a pain but thats life, nobody likes gluing tyres but we all do it.

I think Ben H has some points but i also think he is way wide of the mark on some others, saying that Old timers are against it is wrong. Our very own OldTimer is the one who is putting a set of rules together for the BRCA handbook, we also have Mark Christopher who i remember racing radion race car series on road when i was about 12, these 2 alone are championing lipo with the support of many other top national drivers and Multiple European `A`Finalist Tom Cockerill.

Technology does move on we know this but even if lipo is only round for 3 years, whats wrong with that?? We have seen Nimh increase so much over the last decade (ish) to the point that they are becoming dangerous, in a world of Health and safety surely that alone would warrant serious consideration for a change.

A few people know that at the F2`s the other week i had a cell go bang. I thought it only happened to those who abused their cells, my cells had been equalised and charged correctly, they were in my car ready to go for a practice and they did not peak for some reason, i heard little ben squeal as he shouted me from the next tent as they were hissing, it melted the battery strap and i emptied them onto the grass, this is where the series of comedy events begins, i kicked the cells away aiming for an open piece of grass but they curled off under someones mondeo, i then had to scoop them out with my foot only for them to become stuck under the tyre, mean while im waiting for these to take my leg off when they go up, i managed to clear them and get them into an open area, approx 30 seconds later Bang, they went off like a shot gun and i was thinking if they had of done that whilst i was getting them out of the car etc i could well be blind now. These cells have reached there limit now IMO

[LBC]

Thanks Mark - you a QOTSA fan too!

Lee, I think you've misinterpreted benh's post.
He wasn't having ago at us old farts - he was, as he said, using it as a similie....which is why I can't understand SlowOne's downright rude reply;
and going by his remarks I can only assume his house has been glazed with unrefined glass for the past 30 years!

[Benh]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

There is nothing quite so sure of their own invincibility as the young. You need to remember that if you haven't personally experienced something, you can't possibly understand it. As you are not old, you don't know...

I'll assume, that you aren't making assumptions here.

But messing around with dischargers, preparing cells for hours. This is incredibly time consuming. This was to obtain more power than you had with a standard product, or to gain a personal advantage. But then that didn't last long, because everyone then started doing it. This doesn't have to be the case now - Saving time and money.

Originally Posted by SlowOne

and your almost unbelievable arrogance in assuming we don't is beyond decent standards of behaviour. The world doesn't revolve around you...

You're right it does not. Which is why I have put forward an argument that does not benefit me directly in the short term. I am working very hard to try and encourage new people into this hobby in the local area, and investing a lot of my own time and money to help make this happen. I have no commercial interest and will never expect to see a return on it. I am putting an argument forward based on these opinions I have experienced.

Originally Posted by SlowOne

can you show me any sport, hobby or business where it is? No. ............... it's never been level on anything, and better people than you and me have tried. LiPo is not a leveller, it is a divider - it divides those who can afford to convert from those who can't.

I agree no sport is equal. When I say make it easier, I meant make it easier to get into. As for levelling the field, only in terms of what each individual can achieve without spending hours and hours on it and money on it. NiMh - Equalisers, dischargers, seperate cell chargers etc etc. If a noob uses NiMh -especially second hand ones, the difference in power from different packs is incredible. Therefore how do you build consistency in what you do on the controls to how the car behaves. Allowing them consistency on power will get them to the next stage quicker, set ups and developing driving skill.

Originally Posted by SlowOne

My fear is this - LiPo is a transient technology waiting for A123, Lithium and other battery technologies to mature. As far as car manufacturers and portable electronics are concerned, it is a dead technology - their money is going into these other technologies for development. You are making people invest in something that in three years time will be obsolete. If I had to throw a couple of hundred pounds at my hobby again, I'd be pissed off, not having any fun.

Valid point - The lifespan of a technology. However, you have stated 3 years.
1 - Add up what you spend on NiMh in one year. Add up what you have to do to keep those things matched and competitive.
Either your not competitive and have no intention of being – which means this entire argument is pointless to you - Or, you're spending in one year what you would spend on LiPo’s in 3.
2 – LiPo Charger and Balancer - £70-80. Divide by 3. £25.00 per year lost – If the equipment had absolutely no resale value.

Originally Posted by SlowOne

While you put me down as a Cantankerous Old Timer,

It was a "simile".

And as for me making them invest? Really? I have that much power? No, I didn't think so. People are making their own minds up. Every person at our club who competes in the regional and intends to do next years regionals have converted to LiPo. Newcomers are buying LiPo. If LiPo is not approved - The dwindling regional numbers will lose about another 33% of its numbers. (EDIT - For our region EoE)

Originally Posted by SlowOne

I'll put you down as an Arrogant Young Ignoramus.

The great thing about this is that it’s your opinion. I can’t argue with a personal opinion.

What I can argue is that I have rattled your cage and this was unintentional. My main argument is with Jonathon. Not him personally, I have nothing against him personally, always very friendly and very helpful.

But he is the “influential son” and in many cases the voice of our regional rep.

Opening line of the BRCA mission statement:
“The BRCA exist to promote the construction and racing of radio controlled cars”

Originally Posted by SlowOne

My deep joy in this situation is that you cannot learn what I know - you will just have to wait until you are older - no matter how hard you try; age and treachery will always outwit youth and exuberance! When you get off your high horse and make this hobby inclusive of everyone, I'll get off mine.

I am not naive to think that this hobby can be all inclusive. But I do believe it can be less obstructive.

[Benh]

Originally Posted by Lee

I think Ben H has some points but i also think he is way wide of the mark on some others, saying that Old timers are against it is wrong. Our very own OldTimer is the one who is putting a set of rules together for the BRCA handbook, we also have Mark Christopher who i remember racing radion race car series on road when i was about 12, these 2 alone are championing lipo with the support of many other top national drivers and Multiple European `A`Finalist Tom Cockerill.

Lee, sorry I didn't make this clear. I meant this as a simile from a common stereotype on age. Not that older people in the hobby are Cantankerous.

Also, "appears" preceded it, which was to devalue my comment to a loosely backed opinion open to argument. Which I must say you have done. It's interesting to know some of the advocates for LiPo.

Old Timers, was meant for those with years of RC under their belt, rather than any direct relation to age. We have a few young Old Timers at the club.

[burgie]

if Lipo's are the industries "old" technology and are due to be replaced by something new in three years time, judging by what I have spent on my Lipo cells in the past two years, I will have to fork out about £150 to see me through the next three years.....

I have sold old my Ni-Mih stuff over the past two years, and bought Lipo chargers for myself and my two children. All of those charges can support this new A123 technology or whatever it's called, so they won't need replacing.

The argument that Lipo is now old technology is not a valid reason to disallow the introduction/adoption of them as a recognised power source for our cars.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Benh

Lee, sorry I didn't make this clear. I meant this as a simile from a common stereotype on age. Not that older people in the hobby are Cantankerous.

Also, "appears" preceded it, which was to devalue my comment to a loosely backed opinion open to argument. Which I must say you have done. It's interesting to know some of the advocates for LiPo.

Old Timers, was meant for those with years of RC under their belt, rather than any direct relation to age. We have a few young Old Timers at the club.

Ben, Sorry if i misread your post, it was a long post and i have to minimise oOple everytime someone walks past so i may lose the context somewhat

[dancoog]

Biggest difference I saw when over at the cactus was pro's with one pack mounted in their car and just knocking it on a charger between rounds to top it up. Wow can you say easy.. come on the ability to just top up one pack per car all day long has to appeal. Think of the freedom to run multiple classed to do more work on your car or to go and watch more racing!! This has to be an easy one come on the word easy must appeal to some of you.

As for chassis needing to be changed the only one that I've seen that can't be changed very easily is the AC. the xx4 takes them down one side as will most other cars (pred and xfactory) is this a real issue I don't think so.

These are our fun days out of the house, racing and seeing friends. Lipo just increase the ease of use and let you have more time for the true joys of racing and BSing with your mates.

[mark christopher]

lee for the record im not 40!!!! im over it lol

sory tho can not remember you, what class were you doing?

[Lee]

i didnt mention ages

i was doing scale saloon, it was the first year i think that they had a series for them, they were the up and coming class and the wide scale tourers were the main class, i think you were running F1`s as well at the time along with the likes of kris Kennedy.

The good old days of tire truing after every run and 1700 cells

[mark christopher]

yup defo good, fun then, edited my post id not put it properly!!