Entry fees

[DCM]

It would make it a lot easier to Schedule, as really, with the electric, we only have to miss 10th Nationals, but with the 8th side of things, there are other meetings they want to avoid clashing with, to keep numbers up.

[peetbee]

That's what I was trying to draw attention to in my post on this topic:
http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48389

[dorris]

I was present at the WRCA AGM where the £10 fee per class was introduced... it was a blanket £10 per class with no concessions for a second class or juniors. I argued strongly against the fee as it seriously penalised families with a number of children but was voted down. The subsequent AGM then introduced a reduction to £5 for juniors but the senior fee remained at £10 with no concession for a second class.

It was done partly because the intention was to hold only two regional meets, one West and one East and that they were self-financing, stand alone meets with a full set of trophies for each, paid for through the elevated race fees and organised for the meet by the host club. The only results of any import to be combined were for the electrics as they would be used to work out licences for Nationals. It was hoped that these two regionals would be prestige events with decent turn-outs and a big meet feel but that didn't happen.

Some sections of the WRCA stated that this was not enough and even started a rival summer series and effectively boycotted the two planned regionals... effectively rendering those two rounds little more than biggish club meets...!!!

Seeing as now the calendar boasts six rounds there is little justification for these elevated fees as the idea of stand alone trophy meets/regionals with the various trophies etc. has gone out the window.

As long as a club covers its running and meet set-up costs then that should be the criteria for setting the race fee. Charging full whack for a second class is profiteering to my mind, whereas 50% of the race fee for a second class is reasonable.

[Mikey G]

I agree juniors should get a reduced entry fee, the second class fee can be debatable. Being a nitro racer I have no intention of running a second class unless it is electric as nitro requires so much more of your time to prepare and the requirments of a pit crew tends to mean you need help from others as much they need help from you too so sometimes means you have no time at all to run a second class.
Second classes tend to be more of a problem in the electrics as a lot of drivers try to run 2wd and 4wd on the same day, if you are running 2 or more classes then you are responsible for organising a relief marshall not the club. So if you dont have a marshall in position as you are busy racing then you can expect to get punished for it.
I have noticed a lot of regionals run 2wd and 4wd on seperate events but then they may well have the numbers to be able to do this.

I can understand the need for the electrics to run to more stringent rules in regionals for licence purposes but us nitro racers are only there to make up the numbers on the day and to have a days racing. I would prefer to have a relaxed club day not having to worry about vis vests and staying on the rostrum till the finish rubbish, I dont have to do a licence and dont intend to do a national at the moment so I dont like to have it rammed down my throat at every event I do in my club.

The nitro racers of south wales at least seem to work together well and want the best out of the days racing, it looks like the electric side of the clubs need to work on this though.

We at Talywain need to start getting our club days organised because at the moment we only seem to be doing large national size meets and regionals. I just want to go racing and have fun in doing so but I cant do that if i'm constantly watching over my shoulder incase I upset someone because i'm a rebel nitro racer...

I know this post could have also gone in the other thread but as the discussion relates to the reasoning behind entry fees I feel it is all relevant.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by Mikey G

I just want to go racing and have fun in doing so but I cant do that if i'm constantly watching over my shoulder incase I upset someone because i'm a rebel nitro racer...

Right, I really do take offence to that. Nobody makes you do the regional series, if memory serves me right, we are the only region offering the opportunity for you to do so too. If your club doesn't hold regular club days, then you need to take it up with your club. Regional racing series are a stepping stone between how you operate and think at a club level and how things happen at a national level.

Now, if you don't feel that following BRCA rules is your thing, then there is the 810 series for you to do too, if Nationals are not your thing. As the meeting is run under the BRCA banner, certain things have to be adhered to.

As for common courtesy things, like not running up and down on the rostrum whilst others are running, well, stuff like that, is just that, common courtesy.

As for the poll that I generated, it had nothing what so ever to do with Electric/Nitro at any point. I gave a payment scale from the cheap to the expensive, and for those who wish to mix up their racing, the second class option.

[Mikey G]

Originally Posted by DCM

Right, I really do take offence to that.

And there ladies and gentlemen my point has been proven. I will not do the regional series for the rest of this year, I dont enjoy it, and I will not be actively promoting it anymore. And not once have I refered to the 8th10 series myself yet you seem to be quoting it a lot. I'm sure Glyn would take some offence to your opinions on how he runs his highly succesfull race series.

[dorris]

Whilst this is a thread about race fees I fully agree that you marshal after you drive and if you enter more than one class you should cover the marshalling for all your entries or take a penalty.....

However, do you not think it unfair to levy a full fee on a second class if it was voted in by members who do not run second classes (as you have said... it is stressful to say the least trying to run two nitro classes) and therefore would have little impact on them when it does have a serious impact on those that do. That's a bit like dyed-in-the-wool electric runners voting on only 10% nitro fuel.

COBRA manage to only charge one race fee irrespective of however many classes you enter... providing of course you fulfil your marshalling duties. Everyone is happy and the turnouts to club meets are increasing.

With regards to relaxed club days and hi-viz bibs, staying on the rostum etc. it may be down to the club to relax BRCA rules for it's members, however the club must comply with the 13 General Rules as stated by the BRCA to insure it is covered by the 3rd party insurance. Any flagrant breach of these will invalidate a claim even if the breach has nothing to do with the claim.

....back on topic and race fees - It is my general feeling that the WRCA should hold a meeting with representatives of the member clubs, say two from each club to set the race fee rather than have a free-for-all vote where a club can turn out mob handed and force their wishes through a vote at the WRCA AGM simply by virtue of numbers they bring as has happened in the past. One club one vote rather than twenty because the whole club turned up in a bus.

[DCM]

Mike, I was mearly pointing out other options for you, if you feel the WRCA is heavy handed in the way it expects meetings to be run.

If you run a race meeting, that is relying on the BRCA public liability insurance, then don't follow the general rules, your claim is invalidated, it then falls on the shoulders of the Race Director/Chairman of that club. If your club is willing to accept that risk, that is purely up to your club, not the WRCA or the BRCA.

Race Fee's, I think you got a point there, maybe it is worth asking the clubs chairmperson's to ask their club drivers how much they feel is a fair and reasonable price?

[peetbee]

Originally Posted by Mikey G

I have noticed a lot of regionals run 2wd and 4wd on seperate events but then they may well have the numbers to be able to do this.

They do indeed, I wish we did too.

Originally Posted by Mikey G

I can understand the need for the electrics to run to more stringent rules in regionals for licence purposes but us nitro racers are only there to make up the numbers on the day and to have a days racing. I would prefer to have a relaxed club day not having to worry about vis vests and staying on the rostrum till the finish rubbish, I dont have to do a licence and dont intend to do a national at the moment so I dont like to have it rammed down my throat at every event I do in my club.

There are several differences between nitro and electric rules that seem to be catered for ok already (number of rounds, length of finals, etc) so I'm sure something can be worked out in the case of joint meetings

Originally Posted by Mikey G

The nitro racers of south wales at least seem to work together well and want the best out of the days racing, it looks like the electric side of the clubs need to work on this though.

Yes we do! But we all want the best out of the days racing too

[Dyna]

Originally Posted by Mikey G

I agree juniors should get a reduced entry fee, the second class fee can be debatable.

Agreed. Thats what we are trying to work on here, get peoples opinions. We dont have to get a definitive answer here and right now, just see what people think and why.

Originally Posted by Mikey G

Second classes tend to be more of a problem in the electrics as a lot of drivers try to run 2wd and 4wd on the same day, if you are running 2 or more classes then you are responsible for organising a relief marshall not the club. So if you dont have a marshall in position as you are busy racing then you can expect to get punished for it.

Again i agree, and if the organisers seem to be good enough to try to seperate you into corresponding heats so you can race both 2 & 4wd AND marshall yourself, we are onto a winner. If the numbers arent big enough so you cant do this and you cant find a relief marshall then some kind of punishment should in theory be awarded. But also, we are trying to get as many people racing in all the classes so some kind of leeway or understanding ought to be realised. Good point for discussion now and at the next AGM i think ?

Originally Posted by Mikey G

I can understand the need for the electrics to run to more stringent rules in regionals for licence purposes but us nitro racers are only there to make up the numbers on the day and to have a days racing.

Heres where misunderstanding starts for me. I did not realise the Nitro drivers werent driving for points in a series, a BRCA ranking or anything like that when we all attend a WRCA Regional ( Nitro & Electric ). And frankly i doubt most of the electric drivers did/do either - bar the ones who are commitee members or club officials. Maybe this is where the idea of a better website, regulary updated & more relevent information and regulary updated forums comes into play ?

Originally Posted by Mikey G

I would prefer to have a relaxed club day not having to worry about vis vests and staying on the rostrum till the finish rubbish, I dont have to do a licence and dont intend to do a national at the moment so I dont like to have it rammed down my throat at every event I do in my club.

As far as the vis vests goes, i really think its time someone gets a written answer from someone high up in the BRCA about this and settle the reasons for it once and for all. It seems to be coming up in every thread on here atm... As far as "staying on the rostrum till the finish rubbish" i, and im sure most other drivers, agree with DCM - its common courtisy not to disturb other drivers if you are unlucky enough to not be able to continue in the race - i personally dont even leave the rostrum at clubnights if i break let alone Regionals...

Fair enough about you not wanting to do Nationals at the moment, but what happens when and if you DO want to ? Would you be happy for the 5 minute H&S briefing and high viz vests then ? And as far as i can see, at your own Tally club this year there's been one joint 'fun' meet and one joint Regional, plus the electric Nats for one weekend. I honestly dont quite see where the " I dont like to have it rammed down my throat at every event I do in my club " comes from. If im wrong and theres more going on at Tally in joint electric/Nitro then i know about and every other weekend you are getting it rammed down your throat, then i apologise and its just a good point for more information and club interaction ! If not, then i suggest you do speak to your club about it direct and explain to them you want more relaxed club days and less stringent racing and H&S rules ?

Originally Posted by Mikey G

The nitro racers of south wales at least seem to work together well and want the best out of the days racing, it looks like the electric side of the clubs need to work on this though.

I agree. You guys & gals DO seem to have got your act together better than us electrics. We should learn from that tbh. First off to find out what we, as electrics, want out of racing. If its just relaxed racing, regionals, large weekenders, practicing & training whatever - we do need to work this one out. Theres another one for the WRCA website hub & forums...

Originally Posted by Mikey G

We at Talywain need to start getting our club days organised because at the moment we only seem to be doing large national size meets and regionals. I just want to go racing and have fun in doing so but I cant do that if i'm constantly watching over my shoulder incase I upset someone because i'm a rebel nitro racer...

Again this one confuses me due to the reasons from a point or two above. Please explain how doing one joint regional and one joint fun meet is our ( as electrics ) fault for you having to watch over your shoulder?? I think this one is more to do with your internal club politics than anything else ? If not, please explain. Although by the looks of what Minimatto has said you might just get your wish of more relaxed Taly Nitro clubdays next year, if the calender is looking as full as he says ?


I have to say this might look like im picking on Nitros here ( as you are one of the few Nitro people saying anything, and as i think o0ple is mostly electric based ), but im not and i honestly dont think any of the other electric guys are either.

Dave Belsten started the Regional cost thread ( i think ) for the electric side of things - not the Nitros. He has been racing for a looong time and was quite justifiably entitled to ask a simple question about the fees. Then other threads followed quickly, mostly i think, directed at the electric side of things, not the nitros.

Then somehow i feel it suddenly has become an issue for nitro people to think we are picking on the nitros, which just isnt the case. As i said in a different post, atm we need each other for a decent size meeting and to save costs. Hopefully in the future BOTH classes can grow to a bigger level where we CAN run seperate meetings, with maybe one joint meet each year to keep the classes in touch with each other.

I think the only justifiable gripe from us electrics about joint regionals with nitros occured at just GNR - and that was the nitros cutting up the track... badly. Most electrics had at least one car breakage once the nitors started. At Taly it didnt happen due to the astro. The main gripe there was us waiting over 2 hours for our finals whilst watching you guys & gals have 2 hours of fun, then us only being able to run later on after you finshed. This was explained to us later on that it was due to the noise curfew the nitros have. Fair enough, we didnt like it but we eventually understood. And it didnt happen at GNR due to that experience, and i very much doubt it will happen again this year.

As a side point, I have to say in all seriousness, Axeman is the BEST representative of Nitros i could imagine to us electric drivers. Steve is passionate about his Nitros, but understands about where electrics are coming from as well - he started i believe on electrics years ago and is now playing around with them again with that ( sometimes unguided ! ) missile of a purple B44. He honestly never seems to be biased in anyway for either class, but appreciates both for what they offer. His attitude to the different classes is something ALL of us should follow tbh - we would all get on a lot better if we did.

Oh and if it makes anyone happy, three of us electrics watched the Taly nitro buggy final and it was once of the best races weve seen. Brilliant driving, watching 1st, 2nd and 3rd catch up with each other, pass, re-pass and in the case of one of them, break down just as he was passing for 1st if i remember correctly... It ALMOST made me want to have a go at Nitro...

Lastly, thank you Dorris for explaining in a bit more detail what happened at the AGM for the reasons regarding the £10.00 entry fees. If we had known that a couple of days ago there might have been a lot less posts and arguments.... ! It would be great to see the minutes of that meeting though, to finally clarify certain points...

Ok, ive said my long piece. For now. I expect im going to get a ripping apart from just about everyone now...

[Mikey G]

First off I want to point out that i'm not the one who keeps keeping this subject off the original course of discussion
Yes we do run for points in the WRCA series, just as in any other series. My point was the reason for the regionals electric wise is for licences to help qualify for the BRCA national series something that is not required for us nitro racers. If I want to do rallycross nationals then i'll simply put an entry in for them and I will abide by the rules that the BRCA put down for me to compete in the national series.
Talywain has run 2 BRCA national events this year, 1/10th off road and Truggy Nationals. The vis vest rule for the truggy nationals was not enforced, for the simple reason because it doesnt need to be enforced. If you check back on my previous posts in this subject you will see I have already contacted a BRCA Executive member on the issue and he has informed me that vis vests are not an issue required for insurance purposes. All UK affiliated clubs are BRCA insured so the vis vest pit lane issue (yes i'll keep on about it..) is one of the rules that doesnt get pushed onto the clubs as a requirment to comply with the policy, if that was the case then every club day in the UK has been run illegally.
As with the staying on the rostrum thing, again it seems to stem from electric rules with people getting disturbed when others are walking past behind them. On a nitro rostrum in all the noise and the cursing at your pit man because he is too interested in the totty near the fence I think someone walking behind you is the last thing on your mind

[Belsten]

this thread is ace, im glad I started it

[GRIFF55]

one of your better ones ya poop stirrer

good reading isn't it

[Dyna]

Originally Posted by Mikey G

On a nitro rostrum in all the noise and the cursing at your pit man because he is too interested in the totty near the fence I think someone walking behind you is the last thing on your mind

LOL i wondered why the pit men all have funny smiles on their faces...

Mikey, aplogies if my post appeared personal to you or Nitros. Points taken. I can see it from your point of view too, but i think its good to get things out in the open sometimes, and it can only push us ALL forward if understood & used in the right way

Now back on thread...

[DCM]

Originally Posted by Dyna

Oh and if it makes anyone happy, three of us electrics watched the Taly nitro buggy final and it was once of the best races weve seen. Brilliant driving, watching 1st, 2nd and 3rd catch up with each other, pass, re-pass and in the case of one of them, break down just as he was passing for 1st if i remember correctly... It ALMOST made me want to have a go at Nitro...

STREWTH, I hope you had your jabs after that and before last Sunday.... we even touched skin....

[peetbee]

Originally Posted by Mikey G

My point was the reason for the regionals electric wise is for licences to help qualify for the BRCA national series something that is not required for us nitro racers.

The majority of electric are doing the same as you though Mikey, just racing in Wales. The electric nationals don't require qualifying although the better the licence grade the better the heat you get into at a national (in theory at least!) as a result there are only 3 or 4 drivers also doing nationals this year.

In an attempt to get more nitro representation I did go and post a link over on the Swansea forum earlier today!!

Now that we are starting to understand each others chosen motive power better it appears that we have a lot more in common than you first see. And where there are differences at least we understand them!

[Col]

I live in North Yorkshire, so feel free to utterly disregard anything I say below...

We pay £8 per class in the N/E. Currently we race 1 class per day, but numbers are dwindling (because the N/W race 2 classes per day so drivers are going there)
There is no reduced fee (nor ever has been?) for racing 2 classes.

I'm not sure I unserstand the need for a Wales specific governing body. Is in not sooo much simpler to run as a region under the BRCA? (runs and hides...)

What the hell is the problem with Hi-Vis vests? It's not like they're a straight jacket... Just put it on and stop moaning!

Great reading thread with some obviously intelligent an well thought out posts (until this one... Sorry)

[DCM]

lol, Col, the WRCA is like your NE Region, we are the BRCA's Welsh Region.

[hywel]

Right Gentlemen and Ladies of the WRCA a nice lively debate and some very interesting points, Belston im going to kill you next time I see you [lol]
As chairman of the Wrca we have not tried to rip any one off with the entry fees. That was the figure agrred by the members who attended the AGM.
The date set for the Agm was in accordance with the Wrca constitution We were unable to hold it on the date set so a later date was set Im glad to see that your all looking forward to this years i will later in the year open a post on the wrca web site for them so keep thinking
With regard to holding seperate meetings for electric and nitros thats fine if you have the numbers iv e been involved with the Wrca events for approx 15 years and have seen a drop off in electric numbers to a point where we had 3 2wds and 6 4 wd running in a regional series so thats when the nitros were brought in and they kept the Wrca going .
It is nice to see the electric numbers growing again and hopefully we can then run seperate meetings until then we carry on as we are
WITH regards to some off the comments regarding the rules we try to do things as close to the book as possible but when you read them for each section about the only thing they agree on is No
smoking on the track or the pits,,,,,,
So please be patient we might get it right for every one one day [lol]

one final note if you are going to argue do it by Pm not on an open forum please

[axeman]

H please don't bring this debate to an end!!! I was just starting to get addicted to it.. Big Brother has nothing on this, I need to read who is voted out next!!!

It is so good to see all this positive energy in the WRCA.

One thing which is concerning me, is the number of people who will be attending the next WRCA meeting.

Will there be enough food???
Can we get more food ordered???
Will there be enough for seconds???