New Schumacher 4wd

[DanW]

Originally Posted by Welshy40

They should have named it something else as all previous lazers were belts and were built like bricks.

Also the previous Lazer won the Euros and nats in the hands of Ellis and Jamie so why go from really good design to a car that basically looks like something a beginner back yard racer would buy.

Your right, old lazers were built like bricks, they were heavy like bricks too!

I think if you took the old lazer ZXR design it would'nt be competative today.

Kyosho have stepped up to the mark and released a "modern" car, moulded composite chassis etc etc. I agree the new car isnt as competative out the box as some of the competetion.

Maybe if Kyosho gave the car to the likes of Ellis and did some proper race team development then no reason it can't win Euros again. Main problem is Kyosho don't seem to be operating an off-road team.

Anyway why are you so anti shaft drive? World Champ is a shaft drive car. I also remember broken belts on ZXR's and that was in the day of 13T motors and 1700s.

[jimmy]

James, those comments are bordering on the ridiculous! no team drivers, car is half the price or less than the car you are talking about and you can buy it!. etc etc.

[Northy]

Well, I think there will be a new 4wd and then if that is succesful a new 2wd.

G

[jimmy]

love to see it - it was a shame they gave up.

[burgie]

Originally Posted by Welshy40

Also the previous Lazer won the Euros and nats in the hands of Ellis and Jamie so why go from really good design to a car that basically looks like something a beginner back yard racer would buy.

What complete rubbish

There is a Lazer winning the NW regional series, beating those cars that are supposedly so much better than the lazer....

I think that a driver who can't win races looks blames his car before his ability....

[NeilD]

If you look at all of the Lazers they haven't, to my knowledge won a Worlds (i wait to be corrected) and haven't being too popular with this nations top drivers. Schumacher "were" innovators, Cecil is a genius and when a company loses a genius it is bound to suffer. Right up until the BossCat there was a natural evolution of the CAT family and then came the 2K. A very competitive and successful car. I would really like to know how much Schumacher spent and R&D for the 4K before they pulled the plug and who will develop the new car if it ever happens. Most people who know me will vouch for the fact i love Schumacher 4WD (ProCat was the best) and i would love to see them do something BUT are they too late?

If this doesn't make sense i apologise the Rioja is flowing.

[Cockerill]

Originally Posted by Welshy40

so why go from really good design to a car that basically looks like something a beginner back yard racer would buy.

They didnt put any effort into the standard kit design which is why its not a good car. You cant win with it out of the box, whereas you could with the pevious lazers.

Maybe this is the market that Kyosho were aiming for, hence the low price (compared to other 4wd's) and many plastic moulded components, instead of Carbon Fibre/Alloy.

I take it you always ran your legendary Lazer in kit form with no optional extras?

Any way back on topic ...

[terry.sc]

James you know how much of a Lazer fan I am, but at least I know it's faults. The old ZX-R was the greatest club racers car but not the most competitive at the top end. That would make the ZX-5 the perfect replacement, especially for the money.

Originally Posted by Welshy40

mmmm schumacher making a new 4wd, buggy maybe, well maybe they should scrap all the junk they made since the last great buggy they made, the bosscat, and the cars that followed were pretty poor and badly designed.

Sorry but its a fact. The Cat had an awful front end and yes it wasnt a very strong car. Yes it made the basildon worlds A and yes Ben Sturnham made 2nd (Kevin Moore was really 3rd) but still not a good design. Great drivers make the As with bricks. Well Ben was a great driver as he managed to beat Brian Kinwald with a schumacher crappy designed 2wd at the Bristish Grand Prix not long after the worlds, (unsure if it was 1995 but wasnt 93 as kinwald raced a pred in 4wd) which wasnt designed well in the first place.

1993 Worlds, A final. 3 Schumacher CAT 2000s qualified 2,3 and 6. One Lazer ZX-R qualified 10th. CATs finished 2,3,4. Lazer finished 9th. I would class that a great result for Schumacher.

Great drivers make the As with bricks.

As the Lazer was driven by Joel Johnson who qualified on pole in 2wd and only just got the Lazer in the A from your statement would you not class that as the brick?

The design team needs to wake up and look properly at the opposition and design something new and fresh and not copy bits from all the other manufacturers, but design a proper racer like the XLS, and improve it properly like the Bosscat.

Well as loads of the manufacturers have now copied the two CAT 3000 chassis and transmission layouts surely the others have copied Schumacher? Schumacher designed the original CAT for Andy Dobson then spent 3 years developing a car other racers could drive, then took 4 years to get to the Bosscat. The CAT 200 was a fresh design that worked well from the start.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by Welshy40

ok, when the great designer left schumacher to those pearly gates up there the company didnt find anyone capable of taking over his position, and it appears that they just copied and altered the wrong way to make it worse rather than better.

Who was that then? Cecil is still around, Phil Booth is still working with them and Phil Davies only left us in 2001, that covers the 80s design team.

They should find a designer capable, heck look at Kyosho, they now own Peak motors, Orion and Losi Junior

Schumachers designers are more than capable of designing great cars, look at the Rascal and Riot from their current line up. Just because they aren't race buggies doesn't mean they aren't well designed.

The XLS, Procat and Bosscat as well as the cougar were and still are superb designs and at the time state of the art, so what happened? Its like their designing team just stopped working and left. They were designing the best stuff and over night they stopped and started designing rubbish.

They started designing cars that didn't need an engineering degree to put together (remember getting a length of wire, two balls and a drawing and you had to make your own XLS anti roll bar?) and didn't need rebuilding every week. I always raced Kyosho back then as I couldn't be bothered doing so much work between meetings.

Yes the touring cars are good at the mo and the results are good but they need to make a stunning 4wd and 2wd buggy that doesnt have similarities from other manufacturers.
Kyosho can do it well, their 2wd is an upgrade from their last in 2002 (the Ultima type R) and the ZX5 4wd is well a copy of any shaft drive out there

...both very similar to other manufacturers?

but they did the ZX/ZXR/ZXRR/ZXS and those were a design that are still superb for belts.

With a transmission and chassis layout first seen on the XLS Modern chassis are better performers though due to better weight distribution and lower CoG.
The latest Predator looks remarkably similar to the original Pred, except they worked out that touring car style weight distribution doesn't work and went to saddle packs for better balance. Mounting the batteries at the rear of the chassis helps put more weight over the rear wheels for traction and it seems to work.
I have never thought putting the batteries down one side and trying to balance that weight by putting everything else on the other side was a great idea, but it was driven by JRMCAs rule in touring that only stick pack batteries could be used rather than any technical advantage. Works even less well in off road and the only thing that puts me off the ZX-5.

Also the previous Lazer won the Euros and nats in the hands of Ellis and Jamie so why go from really good design to a car that basically looks like something a beginner back yard racer would buy.

The Lazer ZX-R that won only one Euros in 92 had a pair of big money drivers using it. The Yokomo Dogfighter was the most successful car at the time so is it no wonder that the CAT 2000 was similar. Time has moved on and the Lazer design is 18 years old. The old cars are still a good club racer, like the CAT 2000, but they aren't going to win a national again.

If they do then maybe theyd get my custom, and hopefully much more business, and maybe another title.

I guess it would have to be a very special car to get your custom James.

The Lazer ZX-5 is a great car and excels at what it was designed to do. It might not win the worlds but it's a perfect club car for the majority of racers who can't afford a TRF501, BJ4 or BCX. Cars and spares are readily available and at a decent price. I suspect Kyosho will sell a lot more ZX-5s around the world than any other competition buggy (apart from Losi due to them having a 10 year head start!)

The problem for Kyoshos image is that it isn't going to be used by F1 drivers unless they either put together a race team or build a version with lots of shiny alloy and carbon bling bits with a price tag to match like all the others.

Look at the Ultima RB5, no one runs it because all the fast guys run B4s or XXX-CRs so everyone else does as well. As Stu has proved it is more than capable of winning but it's going to be a long time before you see many of them at nationals.

[terry.sc]

Back on subject...

Although it's hard to come up with something innovative if anyone can it has to be Schumacher. They brought us the ball diff, blade driveshafts and just look at the Mi3 for innovative ideas.

I hope Schumacher learn from Kyosho and put together a proper race team to develop it, which would almost certainly guarantee plenty of sales in the UK, getting top drivers that aren't tied to other companies might be awkward though. Although I'm glad to hear of a new CAT 4wd it is a shame that race cars these days are very much a niche market. I can see why the CAT 4000 was dropped (why spend a fortune trying to win races when you can sell loads more trucks by just putting big wheels and big engines in them) but it's got to be good that they see off road being a viable proposition again.

[HKP]

Blimey.. if nothing else, the amount of discussion in this thread proves that people are still very passionate about Schumacher cars!

The sad thing is.. as much as I support a new car from them (and I've made that clear on their forum) by releasing a new car now, Schumacher are getting into slightly crowded market. If they had released the CAT 4K when they said they would (when the only competition was the ZX5 and BJ4) the head start would have meant we'd all be running one now.

It looks like it might be a uphill struggle for the guys from Northampton now but, like Terry says, if anyone can bring innovation to class where the cars are starting to look a bit like each other Schumacher can!

[GRIFF55]

A company from the uk, who knows how to make a good car, can surely design something that would excell on british tracks. I think if they pull this off, even at this time of year, it will convert alot of drivers.
Roll on next season, looks like its gona be a cracker for 4wd!! (or is it 2?)

[Welshy40]

Originally Posted by burgie

What complete rubbish

There is a Lazer winning the NW regional series, beating those cars that are supposedly so much better than the lazer....

I think that a driver who can't win races looks blames his car before his ability....

I am pointing out the obvious here, the ZX5 hasnt won the big titles, so it isnt as good as its predecessor, which has. Yes the ZX and ZXR never won the worlds but did make the A final. Still the ZXR won the Euros and nationals

I also have to agree with Griff55, the company has had a down period in buggies, but I still think that there is some magic left and hope they find it soon as it would be a major boost if they can do what they did with the xls and blow the opposition away. I think that now they will do some good as not only has the competition caught up but pulled away and thats when they will (hopefully) be dangerous

I would buy one if it was a good design and I am a kyosho nut, but I did buy schumachers XLS (superb) Pro cat and Bosscat and couldnt fault them. So I hope they can do it again and also not do a Kyosho and bring out a shaft, but a belt.

Terry wrote this - ''James you know how much of a Lazer fan I am, but at least I know it's faults. The old ZX-R was the greatest club racers car but not the most competitive at the top end. That would make the ZX-5 the perfect replacement, especially for the money.''

Mmmm well does the Euros title and Nationals title mean it wasnt competitive, as it was. Ellis wasnt paid either, he just had the best car at the Euros and tqd a lap ahead of the rest. It was quick. Competitive yes, and all the kyosho team were very impressive in getting the results.

[Lee]

[quote=Welshy40;48099]I I am a kyosho nut,quote]


I dont believe you

[PaulRotheram]

Originally Posted by Welshy40

I am pointing out the obvious here, the ZX5 hasnt won the big titles, so it isnt as good as its predecessor, which has. Yes the ZX and ZXR never won the worlds but did make the A final. Still the ZXR won the Euros and nationals

Are you purposely ignoreing what people say? The ZX5 hasnt won 'the big titles' yet due to it has no backing........................................... ....

[TRF_Tastic]

Isnt this a Schumacher Thread or am I missing something?

[PaulRotheram]

soon to be a bloody closed one!

[NeilD]

A new Schumacher 4WD would be welcome by the majority but i feel they need a good driver to develop it.

[mole2k]

My local club untill about 2 years ago was practically all schumacher cat 3000's and cat 2000's with the occasional exception. Most of the members were holding out till the 4k was released but when it was canned everybody went seperate ways and bought different cars from losi, predator, koyosho, tamiya, etc.

[Garry]

Schumacher already have a few good drivers on their books who could peddle a buggy to a National A.