EFRA AGM - any feedback?

[SHY]

From ROAR:

"*This pack is configured saddle pack style and has been granted conditional approval until saddle pack dimensions are established"

I think this means that ROAR will make a set of max dimensions for saddle packs. I.e. bigger than for stickpacks. Which is common sense!

What is commercially available & safe now the drivers can compete with - way to go!

[jim76]

Is there any way for the EB to revise the size specs, or adopt a seperate saddle pack size before 1st April?

LIPO was approved at the AGM by the racers, and it's up to the EB to set the rules/specs. Can they bring in some sort of emergency change that can take affect for next season, pending a propper revision at next years AGM?

[SHY]

Doesn't hurt to try! Give PW a call!

[OldTimer]

I raised all these points at the agm, as my main concern was if we go along with the brca efra proposal then there are no commercial available lipo saddles that fit within the sizes. I guess i did not get the point across that well

But we were advised that we could not deiced on the size of lipos as this is upto the EB, the other option would be to break away from the EB, but there was no proposal to do this.

I am sure that the trakpower saddles would be allowed next year, as i cannot see any other manufactures getting tooled up and into production in time to get them submitted for approval. And maybe the EB will relax the size requirement for next year only, or until there are more saddle lipo options available?. Fingers crossed

[jim76]

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

[RcRob]

Originally Posted by jim76

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

Maybe thats what they wanted?

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by jim76

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

Originally Posted by RcRob

Maybe thats what they wanted?

thats they way im seeing it.................

[SHY]

C'mon guys! They're doing their best - and with the best intentions! And stop saying "they" - this is "YOU"

Just someone of you guys summon up the key points here and send an e-mail to PW! How about Jonathan and Craig doing this?

They have a large room of play in making these rules it seems - so make sure they get as much input as they can!

And don't forget... the finished rules in the EFRA handbook has not always been the same as what was in the minutes. This year they forgot to specify one mandatory fuel stop for 200mm when they increased the qualification heats to 7 minutes... to solve the fuel consumption problem

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SHY

C'mon guys! They're doing their best - and with the best intentions! And stop saying "they" - this is "YOU"

Just someone of you guys summon up the key points here and send an e-mail to PW! How about Jonathan and Craig doing this?

They have a large room of play in making these rules it seems - so make sure they get as much input as they can!

And don't forget... the finished rules in the EFRA handbook has not always been the same as what was in the minutes. This year they forgot to specify one mandatory fuel stop for 200mm when they increased the qualification heats to 7 minutes... to solve the fuel consumption problem

this year 2008 rules was 5 mins

next year is 7 mins no fuel stop as the prosal. 8th is 7 plus mandatory stop.


its certainly not us.............or it would have been decided at the brca agm the eb, answer to them selves! brca sections opt weather or not to use em, me thinks the bikes have it right

[SHY]

Mark, now I officially give up on you... 10-4!

[Lee]

I love it when you two fight, it makes my day, such interesting topics too

How about a thread making up for next years agm proposals

[Cockerill]

Originally Posted by Lee

I love it when you two fight, it makes my day, such interesting topics too

How about a thread making up for next years agm proposals

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SHY

Mark, now I officially give up on you... 10-4!

hurrahhhhh thank got for that.....................................:thumbsup :

[Chrislong]

Originally Posted by jim76

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

I think many would still. As the Nimh cells would be used half as much, last twice as long!

But what may also happen, is certain cars become less popular, OR some racers may choose to just do one class (less likely). As to be honest, who wants to use Nimh atall? Not me - id rather sit out a season of nationals/regionals until Lipo does come in.

The BRCA and Efra realise that to not allow Lipo would significantly cut the entries at there events as there are many who don't want to buy Nimhs, I see them as a waste of money now. Basically Lipo has got to be allowed, just by how much we've yet to see. But the decision makers are there to represent us, from experience they do that well and I hold a lot of hope for the rules we need to be what we get.

Chris

[Ted Maul]

Sorry for being Mr Thickie Blackadder Thickie here but.... surely it is the responsibility of BRCA/EFRA/EB or whomever to, with the help of their representatives, create a set of rules that will create a level playing field and be simple to scrutineer and abide by - hence they should be concerned with nominal voltage, capacity, even maximum current discharge, charging methodology and the homologation process.

Standardisation of size will be a benefit to many racers, but thats really up to the manufacturers to agree amongst themselves? If you desgn a chassis, you are wise to design ones that will accomodate as many cell types as possible and conversely, if you design cells then you are wise to design them so they fit as many chassis' as possible?? I see no reson why dimensions should play a part when output and capacity are the factors that affect its perfromance??

A 20c 5000mah 7.4v lipo shaped like a banana is no better or worse than the trakpower or orion equivalent, but people wont use it because its stupid. I would suggest setting the key technical specifications and leave the ones that are purely academic to market forces. LxWxH and ground clearance for the overall cars fine, but dimensions for the internals seems a bit unnecessary to me. But like I say, apologies if I'm being thick.

btw I have a zx-5 and orion carbon lipos but I dont race right now anyway

[Bungleaio]

All this discussion between us is all well and good but we need to speak to the BRCA? The options are;

Originally Posted by BRCA website

Your 1:10th offroad contacts

Chairman/EFRA Rep Paul Worsley
Secretary/Reg. Co-ord Charlie Fraser
Treasurer Maureen Smith
PRO TBA
Technical Officer Phil Sleigh
National Timekeeper Jacquie Rowcliffe
Head Referee Stuart Whyman
Drivers Reps Tom Yardy

Regional Reps
East of England Trevor Brown
Mid South/Chilterns Keith Wardle
John Cockill
Midlands East Jim Balls
Midlands West Phil Sleigh
North East Graham North
North West Stuart Evans
Northern Ireland Michael Todd
Scotland John Allen
South East Steven Brooke
South West David Rowcliffe
Wales Hywel Mills

I would have thought phil sleigh would be the best to email and discuss this with

[barnyard]

TBH the set of rules regarding the size of lipo's was fully expected.

At last winters worksop series whan Mark Christopher had a set of the saddle pack trackpower batteries he was passing around to check fitment into different chassis we took the time to measure them.

The issue was raised at the time that if the BRCA and EFRA were prepared to ban the previous seasons NIMH batteries for being marginally over sized they sure as hell weren't going to increase the size restrictions should LIPO or any other battery technology be allowed in future years as this could be said to give them an immediate advantage.

If me and others had these thoughts last year surely the cell manufacturers must have considered it.

The only thing we couldn't decide upon was the reedy pack with the locating humps on would the humps be included or excluded in any measurements.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by barnyard

TBH the set of rules regarding the size of lipo's was fully expected.

At last winters worksop series whan Mark Christopher had a set of the saddle pack trackpower batteries he was passing around to check fitment into different chassis we took the time to measure them.

The issue was raised at the time that if the BRCA and EFRA were prepared to ban the previous seasons NIMH batteries for being marginally over sized they sure as hell weren't going to increase the size restrictions should LIPO or any other battery technology be allowed in future years as this could be said to give them an immediate advantage.

If me and others had these thoughts last year surely the cell manufacturers must have considered it.

The only thing we couldn't decide upon was the reedy pack with the locating humps on would the humps be included or excluded in any measurements.

hmmm so then

average nimh sub c diameter is 22.9mm x 6 (in stick form ) = 137.4mm
average length 43mm X3 to make a "tamiya style stick pack" 129mm (agreed no soldering or connections in that)(taken from EB dimensions)


New lipo stick pack max length 139mm,
which kind of craps on your "they sure as hell weren't going to increase the size restrictions " theory some what!!


some of the lipo suppliers have never had any involvment with nimh so they made packs to fit cars...............

[bigred5765]

instead of shouting on here, why not wait to see whats on the rolling list that was promised buy PW, and see if there are any saddle packs out that will fit the job, remember they have until April to get it sorted, I'm sure there are packs out there already that fit the dimensions and the 5500mah limit.i know there are sticks that will be legal, and I'm pretty sure saddles to, just wait and see,

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by jim76

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

This would be the advantage of having lipo stick and lipo saddle packs being the same overall dimension, as in the new rules.
Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd, so you end up buying a lipo stick pack for 2wd and a lipo saddle pack for 4wd if the next 2wd buggies are designed around a 139mm lipo pack length.

Playing devils advocate here...

The problem here isn't the dimensions, SMC and Maxamps make packs that fit inside the rules and are legal if they end up on the EB list. The problem is that the most popular saddle pack around at the moment, the Trakpower, is too big. Now Trakpower and the other manufacturers have dimensions to work to they can produce packs that fit, the only problem is whether everyone considers we should bend the rules to fit one particular battery pack like ROAR has done. Then if we allow the Trakpower because it is already available what about the Maxamps 6000mah which has also been around for some time but is over the capacity limit?

Give it a year and this won't be a problem as there should be plenty of choice that fits the rules, there might be many more packs around by next April. No one can say right now whether the Trakpowers will be allowed or not, as a transitional year the EB might approve them, and there is of course the question if you are running at the nationals or regionals will you still be using this years lipos or will you be buying new lipo packs ready for the new season anyway?