Introduction of Lipo???

[Garry]

The main on-track benefit of LiPo is at the end of the run - whereas NiMH will have dropped off a little, LiPo voltage will be as high on the last lap as it was on the first. At least, thats what I've found in TC (27t and 10.5).

First time I've heard about capacity limits. Trakpower do 5400mah packs, Checkpoint do (although I think they are produced by Trakpower), MaxAmps and more. I thought it was to do with physical size of the packs - bigger cells etc.

And special cells? In TC this very much still exists.

[JohnM]

I've done my last 3 meetings purely on LiPo power, and its been the best thing ever, so much more time at the weekend to do other stuff, instead of discharging, equalizing, charging etc, just turn up at the track, and go racing

Never going back to NiMh again

Originally Posted by jcb

So to summarise for me to be able to run LIPO for next year I would have to
1) Change my 4wd chassis
2) Get a LIPO charger and balancer thingy
3) Buy a LIPO (obvious I know)
4) Buy a LIPO charging pouch
5) I can’t sell my old cells, which wouldn’t be competitive against new cells or LIPO as the voltage and run time have dropped off.
6) My discharger and charger are worth almost nothing, as anyone buying something would get one that’s LIPO compatible.
7) It would probably be a good idea to get a voltage thingy for the ESC too as from what people say LIPO don’t like going to flat.

Jonboy, some that doesn't cost as much as you think, or even needed matey,
1) Perhaps you might have to change your chassis, but I'm sure I've seen LiPos in a S44
2) They'll cost you about the same as a pack of NiMh cells
3) Cheaper then 1 pack of NiMhs, let alone 5 or 6 packs.
4) Do you really need one? I don't know of anyone with one yet.
5) Maybe, but there will always be someone who doesn't want the newest stuff straight away.
6) Agreed, but thats probably the only downside that I've come across so far. Also see point 5.
7) I know which speedo you run, and that already has a Lipo cut-off.

See there isn't that much to worry about is there.

Oh there is one thing, just for you Jonathan, LiPo at the EoE Regionals next year, I will beat you!

[niggs98]

having spoken to someone who runs them in tc i hope there will be voltage struitenneering on the lipos due to the things i have heard or it will definatly be a lipo only class as that is all that will be competetive in the long run.

as has been stated earlier they need to fit all cars with out modification or the cost for the racer is gonna be stupid

i already know that even the smaller 3200 track power saddle pack doesnt fit my car without modification so i either need to move and lenthen the battery posts and make new bars or totally move the electrics around to run a stick pack down one side. fair enough in the posistion im in i will be testing both of those over the winter to see whats best but the current cell fits every car with minimal fuss so so should the lipo.

having said all that i still want lipo in but do feel it needs more time and help to fit the current range of cars or there will be no market for second hand stuff at all as noone will want it unless it takes lipo

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by niggs98

having spoken to someone who runs them in tc i hope there will be voltage struitenneering on the lipos due to the things i have heard or it will definatly be a lipo only class as that is all that will be competetive in the long run.

as has been stated earlier they need to fit all cars with out modification or the cost for the racer is gonna be stupid

i already know that even the smaller 3200 track power saddle pack doesnt fit my car without modification so i either need to move and lenthen the battery posts and make new bars or totally move the electrics around to run a stick pack down one side. fair enough in the posistion im in i will be testing both of those over the winter to see whats best but the current cell fits every car with minimal fuss so so should the lipo.

having said all that i still want lipo in but do feel it needs more time and help to fit the current range of cars or there will be no market for second hand stuff at all as noone will want it unless it takes lipo

so you think the current cars all had the sub c cell deigned to fit in them? you dont think the car was made round the sub c cell?

this is model car racing, come on put yuor modeling to work,.
bet if i came up with some mod that gained you a second a lap but you had to hack your car to do it, you would be hacking away

[_sleigh_]

Originally Posted by niggs98

having spoken to someone who runs them in tc i hope there will be voltage struitenneering on the lipos due to the things i have heard or it will definatly be a lipo only class as that is all that will be competetive in the long run.

I think I know where you're coming from on this, and I agree it would need to be scrutineered in some way. Although the difference would probably be noticible in straight line speed.

[Lee]

This also turns them into 1 or 2 run packs as well, its ok if you get them for free but not for those who have to pay, it also starts to get a bit dangerous when you start increasing voltage and capacity

I know people will say "we dont need it in off road" but some one will do it, we dont need 4.5 motors but people still try them

[DCM]

that will be charging at more than 1c then.... thats ok, my Tekin packs are rated at 2C.... not that I would need to, as at 1C, they are still plenty rapid enough for my ageing thumbs!!

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

so you think the current cars all had the sub c cell deigned to fit in them? you dont think the car was made round the sub c cell?

this is model car racing, come on put yuor modeling to work,.
bet if i came up with some mod that gained you a second a lap but you had to hack your car to do it, you would be hacking away

That's fine for most of us, but not a great way of persuading young bashers into getting into the racing side more!

Especially when it looks like Lipo's aren't quite as equal to each other as we've all heard! (looking at Phil's Post and others!)

I think we need to accept Lipo's will become must have's, even if not straight away, in 4wd people will get setups to take advantage over time of the lower weight we'll be able to get to etc!

[trekkerkk]

hi mark christopher you say about hacking cars about,
oh look at your signature your sponsored by dremmel,
your just trying to get everyone to buy a dremmel to convert there cars to lipo roflol

seriously only joking i thought it was quite funny,

trekkker

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Originally Posted by _sleigh_

I think I know where you're coming from on this, and I agree it would need to be scrutineered in some way. Although the difference would probably be noticible in straight line speed.

The way I drive I doubt if anyone would notice if I had a 4s pack in my car

Serious point though - already touched upon. We already have issues with scrutineering nimhs and any hard cased battery will cause more grief for the race officials (not good) but lets take a look beyond the national / regional sanctioned events for a moment. The fact is that the club racers out there are already buying LiPo and they sure as hell aren't gonna buy both.

The question has to be not whether the BRCA regional / national drivers can afford to start making the transition but whether the class itself can afford not to incorporate the technology.

Numbers in some regions are already pitifully low - but club racing seems quite strong. If the class alienates the club driver by not allowing his weekly preferred equipment, then it can't be good for its longevity.

It's a tricky one to balance for sure but lets not rule something out on cost alone - after all, all of our existing batteries (and chassis etc) will be replaced within the next 12-24 months I'm sure. It's a sad fact given the cost of them but Nimhs are consumables - just like tyres. In fact, come to think of it, I've had tyres that have lasted longer than some of my Nimhs

I have 100% faith that the powers that be will find a way to make sense of it all

[DCM]

at my local club, in all the years racing, 4wd has always been low/non existant... this year, with brushless and lipo, they have outnumbered the 2wd's, as power is easy to get hold of now.

As with any battery technology, it moves forwards, performance will increase too, my cells are rated at 23C and 2C charging, but I never intend to find out if they will do 2C. Some cells I think, are stretching their performance figures a little, but the C raing really is all about grunt, and in the end, the good thing with off-road, is grunt has to be metered due to lack of mechanical grip. Where the issue comes in, is when people start cocking about and charging LiPo outside of the defined parameters, you get a voltage increase, hence why people are talking about voltage cappers between the cell and the esc.

But then, what do people do with NiMH's, we are told and recomended to charge at 1c... (4.2A) and I regularly see people charing at 6A, as it gives them a voltage increase, but it comes with a clause... cell lifespan.

As a racing organisation, you can constrain things with rules, but for the most of us, these rules would only affect us at regional level. In the end, the way I see it, if your caught doing dodgy things with ANY batteries, you should be asked to leave the meeting.

[Cockerill]

Wow, a lot posts, didn't expect this many.

The major issued raised seems to be fitment to cars.

You have to remember that the cars out today are not designed for Lipo, so of course fitment will be an issue, but as Lipo is legalised new cars will be released that will allow direct fitment.

However, When brushless was first introduced did it fit in every car? Yet we are still running it, and I can think of certain motor/chassis combination's that still don't fit. The most popular speedo's have to have fans removed as they don't fit under body shells and gearing was a problem with some cars when we had to run bonded rotors.

When we got the 4200 generation of cells they didn't fit into every car. Some had to have chassis's modified, battery straps modified and special 'flat' battery bars had to be used, yet we still used them.

IMO the performance issue is rubbish, unless you already running the quickest motor's and batteries available and wanting more power, which I doubt anyone is in off-road.

The cost issue is something that we will have to accept, just like brushless. Most of us probably have skimmers sat at home that are worthless, but we choose to run brushless, no one says we have to.

[DaveG28]

Maybe those experts at dremmeling etc should offer their services to less confident people at their clubs etc to help them out?? Maybe they already do!?

Ultimately your right, it's chicken and egg, cars won't generally be designed for Lipo's until their legal, but let's help those who need to mid chassis, rather than have a go at them for not having the skills!

I think they will have performance benefits frankly, but probably nothing too major compared to skills/setup, so maybe not too important.

[Kopite]

Originally Posted by Cockerill

Wow, a lot posts, didn't expect this many.

The major issued raised seems to be fitment to cars.

You have to remember that the cars out today are not designed for Lipo, so of course fitment will be an issue, but as Lipo is legalised new cars will be released that will allow direct fitment.

However, When brushless was first introduced did it fit in every car? Yet we are still running it, and I can think of certain motor/chassis combination's that still don't fit. The most popular speedo's have to have fans removed as they don't fit under body shells and gearing was a problem with some cars when we had to run bonded rotors.

When we got the 4200 generation of cells they didn't fit into every car. Some had to have chassis's modified, battery straps modified and special 'flat' battery bars had to be used, yet we still used them.

IMO the performance issue is rubbish, unless you already running the quickest motor's and batteries available and wanting more power, which I doubt anyone is in off-road.

The cost issue is something that we will have to accept, just like brushless. Most of us probably have skimmers sat at home that are worthless, but we choose to run brushless, no one says we have to.

I wonder how many people out there, who have converted to/run LiPo now, would not be willing to go back to NiMH? i.e. find a different class to run, or just not race at regional/national level?

[DCM]

I won't buy NiMH's for racing now

[niggs98]

[QUOTE=this is model car racing, come on put yuor modeling to work,.
bet if i came up with some mod that gained you a second a lap but you had to hack your car to do it, you would be hacking away[/QUOTE]

if you had bothered to read all of my post you would of seen that i personally want lipo and will be one of the few who have to work out how to get it to fit into the existing chassis of my sponser or how we go about getting the chassis mold adjusted so that the masses can change there existing car for as little outlay as possible (or free if they have a dremel and the knowhow) im just raising what i feel is a valied point that most cars will ned modifying to fit the new cells.

i already hack the hell out of my cars if i need to as am fully versed in the dremel bible thanks but am trying to look beyound my own wants and needs.



as sleigh and myself have pointed out their will need to be extra scruitineering at national and even regional events as weather we are over powered or not i know the lipo can run at more than 1 volt over what a nimh can be peaked at as it has been shown to me. im not gonna say how as i dont feel it is a safe or sensible practise and charging at 2 c isnt it either but it will cause issues at some point i dare say.

bring them in along side the nimh, i will run what i feel is best for me as will everyone else do for them selfs, just be aware that in other classes already running them that their will always be those who will take the chance so it needs to be well scruitenised


dolly returned to pram i sit back again

[telboy]

Originally Posted by Cockerill

Most of us probably have skimmers sat at home that are worthless, but we choose to run brushless, no one says we have to.

To be honest Mr Tom, I sold mine to help fund my brushless set up!

No need to have something sat around that will not be used.


I'm sure if people looked through their pit boxes at what they no longer need the they could pay for Lipos by selling all the crap.

I emptied my pitbox at the beginning of this year, getting rid of old cells, old motor, parts, Com lathe, and other bits. All that was put on ebay and it ALL paid for my racing this year, Cells, motors, speedos and tyres for the whole season...and I used my last set of tyres at the most recent Regional...well worked out I think!

Seriously, I got about £350 in total for the all the rubbish in my pit box, even going down to all the dog ends of wire that I had hanging around (which I got about £10 for!) and old battery bars etc.
You be surprised what you can get for stuff that you don't need.

[MattW]

This topis will run and run even after the decision of the membership has been reached.

I have no problems personally modifying anything - anyone that knows me knows how skilled i am with a dremel!! I had a good teacher - long story!! I also currently have a 4wd that is designed with lipo in mind, so i wouldn't need the dremel anyway!

Last time i tested LiPo, i didn't feel any advantage to running it - it was easier, that was it. I have LiPo and a charger, but to be honest, i'm not that bothered about running it off rd. My SHO NiMh cells are plenty good enough, i never suffer a lack of power.

It is true that NiMh discharge curve drops off. However, in the main this is due to poor matchine. NiMh cells have a much flatter discharge curve now compared to what they used to have.

I'm still amazed that the "you can't get the cells the team drivers get" obsession exists. Even in on road. There is no doubt that there is a varience in cells in a box of virgin cells, but there are many many good ones. I was talking to someone that personally matches cells this afternoon, and he confirmed this view that there really isn't anything in it. I know someone personally who had cells sent direct from one of the major players in europe. I bought some of the same brand in this Country, and i had an extra 15 sec of runtime - they came off the shelf. So i'd agree with Lee, the good cells are out there.

We should go with LiPo in my view, there are just some issues that ironing out. It will never be perfect.

[SHY]

Originally Posted by MattW

I'm still amazed that the "you can't get the cells the team drivers get" obsession exists. Even in on road. There is no doubt that there is a varience in cells in a box of virgin cells, but there are many many good ones. I was talking to someone that personally matches cells this afternoon, and he confirmed this view that there really isn't anything in it. I know someone personally who had cells sent direct from one of the major players in europe. I bought some of the same brand in this Country, and i had an extra 15 sec of runtime - they came off the shelf. So i'd agree with Lee, the good cells are out there.

Don't agree as to on-road. For off-road yes, there's really no point as there's runtime and power in excess these days! But I know for 1:12 that the likes of Marc Fisher get hold of batteries that's never to be found on any store shelves Furthermore they charge them, do 1(!) run, then dispose of them... they have a mechanic soldering packs constantly during races...

Back to off-road!

[DCM]

Originally Posted by MattW

I'm still amazed that the "you can't get the cells the team drivers get" obsession exists. Even in on road. There is no doubt that there is a varience in cells in a box of virgin cells, but there are many many good ones. I was talking to someone that personally matches cells this afternoon, and he confirmed this view that there really isn't anything in it. I know someone personally who had cells sent direct from one of the major players in europe. I bought some of the same brand in this Country, and i had an extra 15 sec of runtime - they came off the shelf. So i'd agree with Lee, the good cells are out there.

I never said that 'team cells' but the fact that now, rather than buying 6 packs of budget cells, it is affordable to buy two packs of the new LiPo, this making the power outputs the same..... And I have had top level and budget IB cells, and there is a difference, not so noticeable in off-road, but a big difference on-road...