Limit to the number of tyres you can use at Nationals

[ben]

Originally Posted by wacattack

Hardly, unless you say in 5 star accommodation wherever you go??

Cutting out £30 on a race weekened (extra set of tyres for sat and sun) is a nice saving in my eyes

Surely you would want to give yourself the best chance at doing well at a national? Is £30 really that much?

[Evo_Snr]

It doesn’t matter what rules you put in place the cream will always be at the top.

[wacattack]

Originally Posted by ben

Surely you would want to give yourself the best chance at doing well at a national? Is £30 really that much?

Let me put it another way then.

A full set of tyres for 2wd & 4wd will cost £30
A second set £60
Third set £90
4th set £120

What I'm saying is should somebody be able to have a competitive advantage because they are either given for free or prepared to spend £120 on tyres?

My proposal is to remove this advantage to make it more of a leveller

[Smartalec]

Originally Posted by wacattack

Let me put it another way then.

A full set of tyres for 2wd & 4wd will cost £30
A second set £60
Third set £90
4th set £120

What I'm saying is should somebody be able to have a competitive advantage because they are either given for free or prepared to spend £120 on tyres?

My proposal is to remove this advantage to make it more of a leveller

It won't make it a leveller, the top racers will still win because they are better drivers, not because they get tyres cheap/for free.

[wacattack]

Originally Posted by Smartalec

It won't make it a leveller, the top racers will still win because they are better drivers, not because they get tyres cheap/for free.

Erm, I'm not saying tyres are what will make everyone drive to the same ability!!

What I'm saying is you could get an advantage over others by the number of tyres you choose to use, whereas others who can't afford to do that have to suffer.

And if the top drivers will still rise to the top, then that's an even better result. People have more cash in their pocket and the best drivers still reign supreme

[PaulUpton]

I think the poll is wrong anyway in my opionion, the way it is written makes you want to click yes.

I think there should be a option of "ill only spend as much as i want to spend on tyres"

[Smartalec]

Originally Posted by telboy

So you're saying that if you're a bit short on cash then you shouldn't even think about doing nats?
Thats a great attitude to have.

Just because people are less 'well off' than others doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to participate in nats.

It's the only attitude to have if you're strapped for cash!!!......... why would you bother driving hundreds of miles up and down the country if you can't afford to compete properly?, doesn't make sense to me. You'd be better off doing club meetings and regionals and actually enjoying it rather than going to a national and not being able to do your best because of your budget

Unfortunately money plays a part in everything we do in life and unless your lucky enough to have loads of it then for most of us we can only dream of doing the things we'd love to do ........... I'd love to do all sorts of things but I can't because I can't afford it, but I can afford to race model cars at national level. I use a tent and camp out, the Travelodge's are cheap but if you take away that cost and put it into tyres that would make more sense.

We're probably only talking about an extra set of tyres per class so it's an extra £15 or £20 per day, hardly anyone (including the top boys) uses a set a run anymore because there is usually more grip than even they can handle. How much would you expect to spend at an average national?

We've all got two (at least) cars, complete with expensive radio gear, top notch speedo's/motors/servo's, it all costs far more than a couple of extra pairs of tyres. You can have all the best equipment in the world but without grip the things are useless and as said before, if you think you'll level the playing field by limiting the amount of tyres then think again because the best will always be the best, they didn't get there because they had tyres thrown at them for free, they got there because they were good. If you take away the grip, they'll still win, just by a bigger margin because the rest of us will suffer.

The more the merrier at national level, i'd never want to put anyone off entering but if you want to compete properly you'll have to spend some money on the basic running costs i'm afraid

[Smartalec]

Originally Posted by wacattack

Erm, I'm not saying tyres are what will make everyone drive to the same ability!!

What I'm saying is you could get an advantage over others by the number of tyres you choose to use, whereas others who can't afford to do that have to suffer.

And if the top drivers will still rise to the top, then that's an even better result. People have more cash in their pocket and the best drivers still reign supreme

In your opinion Wayne what would be a sensible amount of tyres to limit each national too?

[bigred5765]

i think if your that keen on winning you would make sacrifices to get the tires you need,limiting the number of tires wont level anything just make everyone use tire compounds that last longer making the slower slower and the fast guys slower,if your into the sport enough to want to winning you would make sure you had enough tires, we as a family haven't had a proper holiday in years the money goes on our hobby,

[mattybucks]

Originally Posted by Smartalec

It's the only attitude to have if you're strapped for cash!!!......... why would you bother driving hundreds of miles up and down the country if you can't afford to compete properly?, doesn't make sense to me. You'd be better off doing club meetings and regionals and actually enjoying it rather than going to a national and not being able to do your best because of your budget

Unfortunately money plays a part in everything we do in life and unless your lucky enough to have loads of it then for most of us we can only dream of doing the things we'd love to do ........... I'd love to do all sorts of things but I can't because I can't afford it, but I can afford to race model cars at national level. I use a tent and camp out, the Travelodge's are cheap but if you take away that cost and put it into tyres that would make more sense.

We're probably only talking about an extra set of tyres per class so it's an extra £15 or £20 per day, hardly anyone (including the top boys) uses a set a run anymore because there is usually more grip than even they can handle. How much would you expect to spend at an average national?

We've all got two (at least) cars, complete with expensive radio gear, top notch speedo's/motors/servo's, it all costs far more than a couple of extra pairs of tyres. You can have all the best equipment in the world but without grip the things are useless and as said before, if you think you'll level the playing field by limiting the amount of tyres then think again because the best will always be the best, they didn't get there because they had tyres thrown at them for free, they got there because they were good. If you take away the grip, they'll still win, just by a bigger margin because the rest of us will suffer.

The more the merrier at national level, i'd never want to put anyone off entering but if you want to compete properly you'll have to spend some money on the basic running costs i'm afraid

I agree, at least someone talking sense.

[bodgit]

I dont think that limiting the number of tyres each driver can use to reduce the costs would level the field. Apart from skill what can you do about someone who can only afford a low-mid range priced speedo or old cell batteries for that matter who happens to be in the same heat as someone who can throw money around and buy the very best speedo and lipo,s available.
Money will always play a big part in rc and you go into it knowing what you can or cannot afford. Skill cant be bought.

[Richard Lowe]

I wish we could put a limit on it somehow, but I think a better way would be to set the control tyre as something that will last all day easily. Didn't schumacher used to do a compound harder than blue (red?), that way if they didn't wear there'd be no reason for everyone to keep throwing new tyres on.

The only time I think people would really struggle for grip would be a worn grass track, but on the other hand that might make that kind of track more interesting to race on

I do get a bit off my tyres but it's still the biggest expense for me at nationals, on average I'll use more than 80 pairs over a season (assuming it's all dry, rain my increase that number), which at retail is approaching £600 - and thats too much IMO.

The other issue we have thats making people use more is how competitive the series is, don't get me wrong this is a fantastic thing and makes a good result even better. The top 20 or so are now all so close everyone is looking for that last little bit of performance and an easy way to get that a lot of the time is new rubber, a couple of seconds over a couple of runs can make the difference between back of the A or top of the B, and you can't win the meeting from the B...

[KRob]

Get rid of tarmac!!

The thing that makes me cry when I get to a track is the use of tarmac as a surface. In my view it adds little as a racing surface other than to wear the tyres faster.

I appreciate that newer tyres will always give more drive but for those not hunting out the top 10 a slightly worn set will be easier to drive - but not if they wear out in one run.

There are some tracks on the national calendar that use tarmac but I don't feel it adds anything to the racing. Cobbles, a bit of concrete, some slabs okay but hard cornering or acceleration on tarmac does nothing for me but wear out the tyres faster.

Minor rant over...

[/tobys]

How about introducing a price limit on the control tyres?

Schumacher and Ballistics are £8 a pair (rears) whilst the new Fastrax at £6. I know that is not a massive difference but it all helps over the course of the season.

Tyres alway has and always will be one of the biggest costs of racing competitively - it's a fact of life.

[RogerM]

Firstly I have to say I agree with Keith on the tarmac thing. Kkidderminster is still my favourite track in the country (not been to RHR but believe it's meant to be great, maybe next year) but when I look at the layout first thing in the morning my eye is always drawn to the tarmac section with the thought of "how will that be on tires today". In recent visits they guys laying down the track have really worked at limiting the impact of the tarmac on the tires and tire wear has been fine. I do remember the days where you HAD to put a new set of BB minipins on EVERY run and could feel the car getting loose at 4mins, no desire to go back there!!!

Ok, so I voted for yes mainly as I have raised this a few times over the years myself.

Will it effect the A / B finals, no .. those guys could beat most of us with the box an optima came in even if it had been left out in the rain since 1986!

Where the difference is most felt is lower down the order. It is perfectly possible for 2 drivers of equal ability, the same equipment and hangover levels to be separated by 20 places in the overall standings say one in the E the other in the G simply due to one being able to put a set of new rubber on each run and the other not.
Nationals are SOOOOO close throughout the field, even more so than when I used to do the whole season every year that it can and does make a difference.

I can see both points of view, Alex is right in what he says ... lets face it Lee Martin and Ellis would be there or there abouts no matter what they ran and if you think your knocking on that particular door then a set of boots isn't a lot to pay to have it opened.

Now, many of use set much more subtle targets like trying to make a final after the 2nd leg of the A .... no matter if we had a new set of tires, fresh motor and brand new car for each and every run would we ever be chasing Neil Cragg round nose to bumper but if the guy next to use has a healthier bank balance we'll not be chasing him either.

So I believe it is a good idea, would make no difference to the title fight and maybe attract more people to give nationals a go.
Hell I even think it should be like that at regionals too. Lets be honest now, how many of you would put brand new tires on every run at regionals anyway? The top boys will be using national cast offs and still making the A on ability.

Just my 2ps worth

[RogerM]

Originally Posted by /tobys

How about introducing a price limit on the control tyres?

Schumacher and Ballistics are £8 a pair (rears) whilst the new Fastrax at £6. I know that is not a massive difference but it all helps over the course of the season.

Tyres alway has and always will be one of the biggest costs of racing competitively - it's a fact of life.

That is a diffiuclt thing to arrange.

Only way that could work is if you bought your tires for nationals at the same time as entering the event and the BRCA reps negotiating a "bulk buy discount" with the suppliers.

Problems with that are;

1) Would make pre-paid entry expensive (each event being £10+ say £40 for 2 sets of discounted tires = £50 a day .. £100 a weekend = £600 to find at entry time in January when we are all skint from Xmas!).

2) Somebody running the nationals would have to transport and hand out nearly 1000 sets of tires per weekend ... that would be a pain for them if they drive anything much smaller than a big estate car (120 drivers, 2 sets of each of the 2 nominated tires per driver per day + a few spares to cover the ineveitable issues is easily 1000 tires a weekend!)

3) Said BRCA guy would have to store 6000 sets at the start of the year or rely on the suppliers always having stock on a "just in time" basis ... not sure any of them would sign up for that!!!

Without pre-payment it would be an unacceptable hit on the BRCA sections bank balance ... just think how much they would loose if they bought all those yellows (for example) out of their funds and EVERY event was wet needing greens!

+ probably dozens of other valid problems I've not thought of probably involving the finacial side of thing.

Unfortunately nobody is getting rich from being in this industry so I doubt you would get much of a discount anyway.

[simoncrabb]

Ahh, this old debate :-)

I think the big thing isn't whether tyres are new, about getting the right setup for the tyres on that particular track, and then having the talent to drive that setup combination quickly.

All of that comes down to experience and talent. The top guys can do is consistently, whilst us amateurs get one or more things wrong and we're a couple of seconds a lap behind them.

Even if it was more tightly controlled tyres it would still be about getting all your ducks in a line and doing it right.

Comparing to touring cars isn't quite the same, as new tyres can be seriously quicker, and talent has less of a factor - they're much easier to drive than off-road in my opinion.

As for attracting more people to do the nationals, looking at this years popularity it's more of a case who can get in, there's no shortage of people willing to spend however much it costs to do a season - whatever they're own personal goals.

In regionals trying to reduce the costs might make more sense - for me regionals are MORE expensive than nationals - and they're not full unlike the nationals.

[/tobys]

Originally Posted by RogerM

That is a diffiuclt thing to arrange.

Nothing to arrange, it becomes a requirement for tyres nominated as the control tyre. No discount, bulk-buying etc required. There is max price on batts, so why not tyres?

If Fastrax can do cheap(er) tyres, others can too..?

I don't do Nationals (too expensive and family/work commitments preclude me), so merely throwing in some suggestions for debate. By the same token, I haven't voted in the poll.

[simoncrabb]

Actually, the main reason I voted Yes, was just to make it simpler.

Less tyre choice (and we have a LOT of combinations currently, compound + insert etc..) just makes less variables to content with to get a driveable setup.

But should Nationals be simple? Not really, it should be the ultimate test of all skills for the best in the country.

[Si Coe]

Thing is, there are only really two disadvantages to this:

1) Its a pain to scrutineer. Thats a fair point, but other classes manage so it can't be that bad.

2) You can't gain an advantage over someone who can't afford fresh rubber.

I'm not sure it won't impact on who is in the A-Final though. It might make the A much more interesting by adding a tactical element to qualifying. We all know that grip levels on a track can vary through the day due to heat and weather - choosing the right round to play your fresh boots could leap you up the rankings. That would lead to us seeing a few new faces up there in the A, because they got the tactics right.
Whether that is a good or bad thing depends on your opinion of course......