Any truth in this rumour?

[MRD]

Originally Posted by AlisdairO

That's quite a big 'apart from', though, isn't it?

I know it doesn't matter a great deal to racers at the nat level who are likely to be more willing/able to invest cash in AMB kit, but if the BRCA can encourage alternative lap counters that actually work I'm all for it. The AMB systems aren't just a 'bit' expensive, they're genuinely ludicrous, and a massive cost drag for clubs. Personally I would like to see a bit of real competition for them, and that's not going to happen if every time someone tries an alternative everyone complains that their PTs don't work.

As you say, a cheap copy of the AMB system would be great, but if that's somehow not possible I'm all for the BRCA supporting alternatives.

I understand exactly what you're saying but I was meaning the techology and reliability is sound. We have a club that needs a complete timing gear set but don't have £3000 to spend so we've have looked into most of the common alternatives but nothing seems to be as easy to use as the MyLaps.

I actually thought of buying the decoder myself. It sounds a bit mad as theyre £2000 but they hold their money and are always in demand. The Old old systems are still selling for silly money. In contrast I have a 1/5 FG Evo that has about £2000 invested in it which if I came to sell it would fetch about £600-700 max even tho its absolutely mint and I hardly use it.

[seancormier]

Mad-wolfie

To answer your question about sun light ,NO it does not affect it.Also the I-LAP will still read even with dirt and mud on it.We use it for outdoor off road and have not had any problems!I think if you and some other's on this forum went to a track using the I-LAP system ,and race for a day with it.You would change your mind about it and would say it is a great system.I believe racers just have to use it and ALL questions about it would be answered!

sean

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by seancormier

Mad-wolfie

To answer your question about sun light ,NO it does not affect it.Also the I-LAP will still read even with dirt and mud on it.We use it for outdoor off road and have not had any problems!I think if you and some other's on this forum went to a track using the I-LAP system ,and race for a day with it.You would change your mind about it and would say it is a great system.I believe racers just have to use it and ALL questions about it would be answered!

sean

I thought it would be useful to put my side of the story as some smartalec's on here seem intend on spouting off views without even thinking first...

First of all, the club I setup does not run I-Laps yet, but have purchased one and in fact had it delivered today. I have spoken with many 'local' clubs who use it in the UK and everyone has told me it works perfectly, and it's even used by Gokarting clubs so it's very robust.

I have tested the full kit today and everything works, even beneath a painted bodyshell, I think the point about being visible from the windscreen is simply to ensure the best chance of being counted, but I found the sensors worked fine, even with my dark blue painted bodyshell.

Unfortunately, there are some on this forum who think RC racing is only for those who want to participate in National meetings. Well surprise suprise, RC racing can be enjoyed, and should be enjoyed by everyone, even those who have no interest in trying to get their name up in lights!!! The only reason our club affiliated with the BRCA was for insurance purposes as I couldn't find a better deal anywhere. We run a very successful local club that is here for local drivers, not those who like to drive up and down the UK every weekend. You keep doing what you do and we'll keep providing a fun and entertaining environment for those who enjoy what we do.

None of our members have had a problem with paying the £35 we are charging them for their personal transponders. We do in fact have some members who race at bigger meetings and they've also bought the PT's for the I-Laps system we now own and will be racing in 2010.

Sean, I'm with you on this one, we are a local club who've only been going for 6 months, we may have 18 members and a pool of 35 drivers who come from week to week, but there is no way we could afford the AMB system. It's a rip off and the sooner local clubs become aware of this the quicker I-Laps will establish here in the UK.

For what it's worth to those who slag it off (not that they will bother to read this ) I have had lots of PM on this forum from clubs up and down the country who are keen to see how we get on with it as they to feel the same way as we did about the overpriced circuit board and chips that AMB sell.

As to the BRCA, well they did look into changing, but have stuck with AMB - albeit under a new name following the merger of two companies. Still the over priced kit for local clubs to purchase...

Discussion and debate is a great thing, shame it get's ruined by those who are less informed and blinkered

PS. A huge thanks to the author of the OP for all the free PR you have given us

[seancormier]

bedsrrmcc

You bought a great system for the club.Please post once the club guy's have had a chance to race with it.If you have any question about it please ask ,i may be able to help.One thing ,even though it read through the blue paint in the body.It would still put it in a clear spot on the body.
Just wondering how many bridge sensor's did you end up getting? we used 8 for a ten foot track width.

Best of luck with the I-LAP and racing!

Sean

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by seancormier

bedsrrmcc

You bought a great system for the club.Please post once the club guy's have had a chance to race with it.If you have any question about it please ask ,i may be able to help.One thing ,even though it read through the blue paint in the body.It would still put it in a clear spot on the body.
Just wondering how many bridge sensor's did you end up getting? we used 8 for a ten foot track width.

Best of luck with the I-LAP and racing!

Sean

Yep, I will still put it into a position where the sensor can see it through the windscreen, but it was just interesting to know that it can still be read through dark paint! Just shows what a good system it is really.

I will certainly be posting reviews of this system as so many people have been keen to know how we get on. I'm just so glad that a guy at our club pointed me to this system

Everyone at the club has been waiting months for this to come...

We've got 5 sensors for a 2m wide start finish line indoors. We shall be ordering a few more once the outdoor track is built, but we are currently going through planning permission so hard to tell what width we shall have, though the size of the land means it's going to be big... NO! VERY BIG

We already have the JCB ready and waiting to start building the track...

Keep an eye out on our web site at www.bedsrcmcc.co.uk for news updates about the outdoor track - the wait is really going to be worth it for all our current club members and those who have already shown a strong interest in running off road when we start.

FYI we are going to be running 1:10 and 1:18 buggies / trucks outdoors.

[Marvin]

The only thing about the AMB system is that surely, in this circumstance, it's better for all if there is a monopoly in place? You know that pretty much any club you turn up to will run AMB, and your PT will work.

Even the new RC4 transponders aren't that expensive.

I will say though, an MRT system (copy of the AMB one, but will work in conjunction) would be the best bet - still supports everyones AMB PTs, but also new MRT transponders - perhaps have an extra digit for the MRT PTs, so there is no clashing to worry about?

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing about the AMB system is that surely, in this circumstance, it's better for all if there is a monopoly in place?

Why?

I'm not interested in having people from all over the country visiting our club and racing. We chose a system that is best for our club and our local drivers.

The problem with having a Monopoly has been clearly shown in the price that the AMB system costs?

I know it's not a great comparision but... I can get a fully functional HD handheld video recorder, high spec PC and software to edit the HD Video, HD DVD burner to burn discs a HD DVD player and a good sized HD LCD TV screen to watch the HD video on and still have change from what it would cost a small start-up club to pay to be 'part of the AMB gang!'

Look at all the technology that goes in all the above, then look at the technology that goes into an AMB system and tell me why it costs £1000's instead of £100's to purchase...?

The answer is: MONOPOLY.

That's why it is not good for the sport at local level.

[AlisdairO]

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing about the AMB system is that surely, in this circumstance, it's better for all if there is a monopoly in place? You know that pretty much any club you turn up to will run AMB, and your PT will work.

Even the new RC4 transponders aren't that expensive.

Monopolies are rarely a good thing. It's cool that I can take my PT anywhere and it will work and all, but the flipside is that AMB can charge practically whatever they want and people have to pay it. If there were two serious contenders producing lap counting technology, there's no way the kit would cost so much - it's that simple. They might not be that expensive to you, but to club racers who are on more of a budget, it's perhaps a different matter. MRT have shown that there's nothing about the transponders that means they have to cost *that* much - and I'd be willing to bet they could come down further if AMB cut their prices in response.

Really, though, it's not the cost of the transponders that gets me so much: people who don't want to pay the PT tax can always use club handouts. It's the cost of the detection gear, and the fact that it's such a massive hit for the clubs. If the evidence on oople is anything go buy, racers are really intolerant of clubs using non-AMB systems, which hardly helps. While it might be a bit more hassle for you, you should be happy that they're encouraging competition amongst lap counters, so that more clubs will be able to afford such systems in the future.

[Marvin]

In fact, I don't use an AMB (can't afford one - though might get an RC4), I use an MRT.

Using some simple economics, a monopoly is a good thing in this case - hopefully AMB/MyLaps will learn this time that if you raise the price so high, that profit margin will attract competitors (as it has done). This has caused AMB to drop the price of the new RC4 to just a little above the MRT. This is practising predatory pricing - they are trying to force the competitors out of the market. Hopefully this experience that if they charge what they want, people will find alternatives, will cause them to keep the price low enough that competitors won't be attracted by the rediculously high profit margins of before.

I'd agree that the comparison between the AMB system and the HD capable equipment isn't a good one. They are completely different entities - sure they are both electronic equipment, but look at the production numbers! An AMB decoder is hardly going to be more than a 100s or low 1000s production number, whilst an HD TV will be produced in 10,000s at least. Also, TV manufacturers tend to be large companies with resulting efficiency gains - due to economies of scale. Not only that, as I have found with 'RC electronics' vs 'consumer electronics', the RC electrics are made to a far higher quality - just a look at the operating temperature ranges will show you the difference in component quality - for example an ESC - rated to go from about -20°C to 80°C, whilst a TV from 10°C to 40°. The components must be far, far higher quality to be able to withstand that. This does even extend into off-track equipment such as chargers, power supplies et al, so I'd have reason to believe the AMB equipment is made to similar standards - they don't tend to fail!

[dave g]

an led vary rarely fails..but it doesnt cost over £90

there are no moving parts,very minimal power usage so shouldnt really go wrong,the mrt ones are just as reliable and half the cost,as you say,i think thats why they have dropped the price which is great for the consumer.

what i never understood is why,in this age where electronics are getting cheaper and cheaper,does the amb pt double in price over the last few years,its certainly not inflation.

[Smartalec]

Originally Posted by bedsrcmcc

I thought it would be useful to put my side of the story as some smartalec's on here seem intend on spouting off views without even thinking first...

Unfortunately, there are some on this forum who think RC racing is only for those who want to participate in National meetings. Well surprise suprise, RC racing can be enjoyed, and should be enjoyed by everyone, even those who have no interest in trying to get their name up in lights!!! The only reason our club affiliated with the BRCA was for insurance purposes as I couldn't find a better deal anywhere. We run a very successful local club that is here for local drivers, not those who like to drive up and down the UK every weekend. You keep doing what you do and we'll keep providing a fun and entertaining environment for those who enjoy what we do.

Sean, I'm with you on this one, we are a local club who've only been going for 6 months, we may have 18 members and a pool of 35 drivers who come from week to week, but there is no way we could afford the AMB system. It's a rip off and the sooner local clubs become aware of this the quicker I-Laps will establish here in the UK.

For what it's worth to those who slag it off (not that they will bother to read this ) I have had lots of PM on this forum from clubs up and down the country who are keen to see how we get on with it as they to feel the same way as we did about the overpriced circuit board and chips that AMB sell.

As to the BRCA, well they did look into changing, but have stuck with AMB - albeit under a new name following the merger of two companies. Still the over priced kit for local clubs to purchase...

Discussion and debate is a great thing, shame it get's ruined by those who are less informed and blinkered

PS. A huge thanks to the author of the OP for all the free PR you have given us

Scott, you seem to think that this post was aimed at upsetting you some how when in fact all I asked was a simple question, not a view. And in fact, I did think about it before asking

As to "Discussion and debate is a great thing" I agree with you .......... and that's exactly what we are doing in this post. Not so sure I agree with the "less informed and blinkered" bit, as that's what the post was meant to do ......... inform me

And the free PR won't do your club much good will it? ............. you don't want anyone to travel to your club to race

[David Church]

[QUOTE=bedsrcmcc;320526]Why?

I'm not interested in having people from all over the country visiting our club and racing. We chose a system that is best for our club and our local drivers.







Hi Scott, why are you not interested in having more people come race at your club???
I think the more our sport/hobby has new members the better it is???

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Originally Posted by seancormier

We have been using the I-LAP counting system for two race season so far,and it has worked FLAWLESSLY .
This is the BEST alternative to the MYLAPS/AMB .
Yes,it does have to have a clear line of sight to the sensor

12th scale nationals

Most cars used open cockpit style shell, no clear windscreen for sensor to look through.

Can't see them swapping to this system as it would mean using closed cockpit shells which are considered by most to be inferior to the open cockpit for handling.

And then there's the Mardave Sidecars also

[Si Coe]

So you make a small hole in the shell for the sensor to go through. Not rocket science!

Anyway I'd like to point out that the I-Laps PT costs just £35, which means you could have got an MRT PT for tracks with AMB/MyLaps systems, and an I-Laps PT for the same price as the old AMB PTs! So no extra cost involved at all!

The fact is that even today many small or new clubs still time by the old fashioned manual 'numbers on the car' system. Why? Because its so much cheaper. Smaller clubs simply can't afford AMB/Mylaps, even used ones are pricy.

The result is something I'm sure those older hands can't fail to have noticed - the steady decline of the small 'local' club in favor of the larger 'regional' club. And this in turn leads to a drop in young people joining the sport as most of them can't travel any significant distance to race. As a teacher I work with plenty of kids who are fascinated by my cars and would love to go racing, but couldn't possible convince their parents to drive them 45min-1hr to drop them at the track every Sunday. When I grew up little local clubs of 12-20 were common and these were never far away, so new drivers didn't need to travel much.

I'm not suggesting the current situation is AMB/Mylaps fault - its vastly too complex for that, but anything that helps redress it by helping the small club is a positive in my book

[bedsrcmcc]

[QUOTE=David Church;320587]

Originally Posted by bedsrcmcc

Why?

I'm not interested in having people from all over the country visiting our club and racing. We chose a system that is best for our club and our local drivers.

Hi Scott, why are you not interested in having more people come race at your club???
I think the more our sport/hobby has new members the better it is???

I appreciate that there are some die-hard racers that have AMB PTs who travel up and down the country to go to meetings and I do not have a problem with that.

Our club has been setup for those in the Bedfordshire and surrounding area. We have clearly laid out what we do and how we go about it and we chose the I-Lap system based on cost and the fact that there are many clubs in the UK now using it and the feedback we've had is very very positive. As mentioned, I've been contacted by lots of clubs in PM's to let them know how we get on.

The fact so many have done so via PM says a lot to me. The fact they do not want to be shouted down for not choosing an AMB system maybe?

If there are drivers who think we should be using an AMB system, fine. We don't so don't bother coming to visit us. We have more than enough people interested in racing with us and other clubs who run it, so in time there will be just as many people using I-Laps as there are AMB which is great for our hobby and therefore I-Laps should be supported by as many as those who support AMB.

The beauty of this world is we all have a choice. Our choice was I-Laps, others have a chocie to visit us and use it or not - simple as that.

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by Si Coe

So you make a small hole in the shell for the sensor to go through. Not rocket science!

Anyway I'd like to point out that the I-Laps PT costs just £35, which means you could have got an MRT PT for tracks with AMB/MyLaps systems, and an I-Laps PT for the same price as the old AMB PTs! So no extra cost involved at all!

The fact is that even today many small or new clubs still time by the old fashioned manual 'numbers on the car' system. Why? Because its so much cheaper. Smaller clubs simply can't afford AMB/Mylaps, even used ones are pricy.

The result is something I'm sure those older hands can't fail to have noticed - the steady decline of the small 'local' club in favor of the larger 'regional' club. And this in turn leads to a drop in young people joining the sport as most of them can't travel any significant distance to race. As a teacher I work with plenty of kids who are fascinated by my cars and would love to go racing, but couldn't possible convince their parents to drive them 45min-1hr to drop them at the track every Sunday. When I grew up little local clubs of 12-20 were common and these were never far away, so new drivers didn't need to travel much.

I'm not suggesting the current situation is AMB/Mylaps fault - its vastly too complex for that, but anything that helps redress it by helping the small club is a positive in my book

HERE HERE

I think you've hit the spot with this post.

Too many people on this forum think the world revoles around regional and national meetings - well surpirse surprise it doen't

Our club is a LOCAL club and that's how I want it to stay. As I've mentioned before, if I could find cheaper public indemnity insurance I would leave the BRCA in a second. That's the only reason we are affiliated with them as they don't really give much support to the small local clubs and are only interested in supporting regional and national meetings/groups.

We have lots of young kids racing with us and it's a great atmosphere for all. I've raced at regional meetings in the past and maybe I had a bad experience, but I wouldn't say it was enjoyable at all. I race because I love racing RC cars. I have no interest in being the best in my region or the UK. I simply enjoy providing an environment where fellow fans of RC cars can have fun too - that's what the goal of our club was and we are doing very well

I've also run clubs in the past where we have had 100 drivers turn up for an outdoor meeting and we've managed to keep that same feeling which is a great thing to see. Yes we race competitively, but at the same time we do not want to scare off new blood into the sport.

[bedsrcmcc]

Originally Posted by Smartalec

Scott, you seem to think that this post was aimed at upsetting you some how when in fact all I asked was a simple question, not a view. And in fact, I did think about it before asking

As to "Discussion and debate is a great thing" I agree with you .......... and that's exactly what we are doing in this post. Not so sure I agree with the "less informed and blinkered" bit, as that's what the post was meant to do ......... inform me

And the free PR won't do your club much good will it? ............. you don't want anyone to travel to your club to race

One of these days you will read your own posts and realise that your tone upsets people quite a lot - it certainly has at our club!!!

Just because clubs like ours do not do things your way does not mean you are right, or even that we are right.

It's a matter of choice. You choose your way and be happy, and we'll choose our way and be happy too.

[Marvin]

The I-Laps system is all well and good for onroad - no denying it. But for off-road (where it may have rained?) a sensor that relies on line of sight isn't going to work great. Sure, when it's dry and dusty, it'll work fine, but any weather change (and look at the UK - it's hardly dry all the time), and the system isn't going to be effective, particularly when cars come back looking like this:

[bedsrcmcc]

I love that shot Marvin

However, our club's long term goal for the off-road track is to be astro-turf so our cars will never get to look like that one in the photo.

[David Church]

[QUOTE=bedsrcmcc;320601]

Originally Posted by David Church

I appreciate that there are some die-hard racers that have AMB PTs who travel up and down the country to go to meetings and I do not have a problem with that.

Our club has been setup for those in the Bedfordshire and surrounding area. We have clearly laid out what we do and how we go about it and we chose the I-Lap system based on cost and the fact that there are many clubs in the UK now using it and the feedback we've had is very very positive. As mentioned, I've been contacted by lots of clubs in PM's to let them know how we get on.

The fact so many have done so via PM says a lot to me. The fact they do not want to be shouted down for not choosing an AMB system maybe?

If there are drivers who think we should be using an AMB system, fine. We don't so don't bother coming to visit us. We have more than enough people interested in racing with us and other clubs who run it, so in time there will be just as many people using I-Laps as there are AMB which is great for our hobby and therefore I-Laps should be supported by as many as those who support AMB.

The beauty of this world is we all have a choice. Our choice was I-Laps, others have a chocie to visit us and use it or not - simple as that.

Originally Posted by bedsrcmcc

HERE HERE

I think you've hit the spot with this post.

Too many people on this forum think the world revoles around regional and national meetings - well surpirse surprise it doen't

Our club is a LOCAL club and that's how I want it to stay. As I've mentioned before, if I could find cheaper public indemnity insurance I would leave the BRCA in a second. That's the only reason we are affiliated with them as they don't really give much support to the small local clubs and are only interested in supporting regional and national meetings/groups.

We have lots of young kids racing with us and it's a great atmosphere for all. I've raced at regional meetings in the past and maybe I had a bad experience, but I wouldn't say it was enjoyable at all. I race because I love racing RC cars. I have no interest in being the best in my region or the UK. I simply enjoy providing an environment where fellow fans of RC cars can have fun too - that's what the goal of our club was and we are doing very well

I've also run clubs in the past where we have had 100 drivers turn up for an outdoor meeting and we've managed to keep that same feeling which is a great thing to see. Yes we race competitively, but at the same time we do not want to scare off new blood into the sport.

I don't think it is about die hard racers that travel up and down the country, I think it is about racing full stop, and you have said you only want local racers! Certainly everyone should be welcome, no matter where you live or what transponder you use!!!
And as far as the association you have with the BRCA, well you should appreciate their help, after all they provide you with insurance, and the officials do this with no reward, ie no pay!!! So what do you expect from the BRCA???