Introduction of Lipo???

[Kopite]

Originally Posted by pidge

im pretty sick of people thinking that team drivers ahve faster equipment and thats why they beat other drivers....seriously are you kidding me?

you can buy the same batteries of the shelf....maybe even better..team cells aer not sorted, they're just picked from the shelf at the factory!

And i know it hurts to pay for things....but if we didnt then our hobbie shops and our hobbie would die out!

shame really...........

10 to 15 years ago mate, team drivers did get better stuff than the regular racer, i can vouch for that. Nowadays, you're absolutely right in what you say, it's all the same stuff. Mainly because we're at the limit of the speeds we can go in off road, if not quite often exceeding it

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DCM

yes, it must, it should fit in as a replacement cell, it makes it far more transferable. I know with some of the packs (yungtong for starters) you need a small dremmel work to clear the output cables, is that acceptable, I would think so, but hacking a chassis to make em fit... no

Originally Posted by jimarea51

"ill loan you a stick pack jim!!"

"do you buy nimh now?"

Hey Mark,

Unfortunatly I do still part with hard earned cash for all my racing gear

After all the years I've been racing you'd think people would sponsor me out of pitty

JIm

Originally Posted by racingdwarf

Yes for sure, I think the rule should be lipo should fit straight in the car with no chassis modification exept for maybe washers under battery posts etc, but we should not have to chop the chassis about.

Originally Posted by trekkerkk

my thoughts are they should fit all the cars witout modification,
no dremmelling at all,
then its up to the racer to make the decision for themselves


trekkker

Originally Posted by Kopite

i think years ago when the capacity of cells wasn't what they are now, and you struggled to last, the performance difference between LiPo and NiMH would've been way more apparent. Nowadays, if you've not got enough speed, you can just slat a faster motor in the car, yet not even come close to using the full capacity of cells.

There are limits to what power you can use in an off road car without making it too just too difficult to drive (grip limits etc), so i really can't see a performance related benefit of running LiPo in off road.

I ran LiPo in my X6 at the weekend, with a Novak 7.5L, and it was more than enough power. I was slowly adding weight to the car to get it to the same weight levels as it was with NiMH, so power really isn't a factor

The benefits of LiPo in terms of usage totally outclasses NiMH though. I have one pack for 2wd, one pack for 4wd, and just recharge the same pack after a race. No matter how long i run for, both cars' electrics came off cold! Overall, the cost of 2 packs of LiPo TrakPower 3200's cost me 90 quid (ish), cheaper than the numerous packs of cells i would've eventually bought for the new season.

As for fitting LiPo in the cars. I agree with some of the comments about attracting newbies into the sport, and them maybe having to mod the car to make it LiPo friendly. However, there are quite a few cars that still require some form of dremeling to get them race ready!

to be honest, i'd be gutted if we couldn't run LiPo next year, racing has become so much easier since i've tried LiPo

how can maufacture be blamed for thier lipo not fitting car chassis? even the pred takes lipo, but in a non conventional way, somtime you need to think outside the box
do you ban electric motors on older cars as the new "power" from them made the transmission weak, or did the manufactures come up with stronger cars?

id say run to a size for saddle then the car manufactures will change to suit the new technology, certainly this has happened in TC.

as for newbies coming in thats simple sell em a car that takes lipo!



guess what im saying is was the car designed to fit the nimh cell or was the cell designed to fit the car?



jim what car you run?

[DCM]

Originally Posted by Kopite

10 to 15 years ago mate, team drivers did get better stuff than the regular racer, i can vouch for that. Nowadays, you're absolutely right in what you say, it's all the same stuff. Mainly because we're at the limit of the speeds we can go in off road, if not quite often exceeding it

I didn't mean hand picked cells, more that the cells are not graded, and as you don't need six packs, you can afford to buy the same, whereas when you were buying six packs, and it was a difference of £20 from the budget to the pro packs... it makes a lot of difference.

Jeez Lee M, take a chill pill

[Lee Martin]

dont Jeez me. It stil seems to be some peoples excuse as to why they are not winning! years ago yes, they were matched and better. not now....if u get a £20 set of cells stick a 3.5 in it and the car will be fast watever happens!

[DCM]

so, when you run your cells, with a higher AV and runtime, they are just as good as my cells with a lower AV and lower runtime? Maybe you think they are, but they are not, and you know as well as most people on here... just putting in a faster motor isn't the same as running better cells.

I will Jeez you when you rant though....

[elvo]

Originally Posted by DoughtyUK.net

LiPo does not really offer any on-track advantage of nmhi.

Says you. On a high-grip track, I felt a distinct difference due to most of the weight (> 100 grammes of lead) being lower in the chassis, effectively lowering the CG.

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Originally Posted by _sleigh_

OK then a question to all....

Do you see it as a must that for a specific make of LiPo cell should fit a standard off the shelf car (ie, B4, XXX etc) without modification to either car or cell, before it is allowed to be homologated?

Personally, I think a dimensional control would be sufficient - I don't think any rule that defines a chassis would be able to keep up with the car manufacturers over time - and they'd always be one chassis that got left out. Don't overcomplicate it would be my advice - it would soon self regulate and tbh, any local or decent model shop would be able to advise on chassis / battery compatibility.

Modification to the battery itself - good idea - but can you consider wording it along the lines that the integrity of the cell casing should not be compromised by any accidental damage or deliberate modification. I've taken a 0.5mm chamfer off the very end of a LiPo to fit my TC - I'd hate for that blade marking to constitute a rule infringement of cell modification.

As for downsides as per Tom's original post - the main one would be cost related and the transience of going from an established 'old' technology to a 'new' one. I'd hate to see the off road rules written to preclude the mixed use of nimhs and lipos in the same class at the same meetings.
There's no reason why the technology can't exist alongside the homologated nimhs.
I'd like to see hard casing be made a mandatory requirement for the additional impact resilience it will give the cells but that can make it difficult to scrutinize the actual cells which may be a problem for the organisers.

Perosnally, I don't think that 1:10 off road can afford not to embrace the technology - many clubs are already running it (esp those that also run TCs) but these club members are currently alienated from attending regional or national events. There's good and bad and personally, I don't think that I'd go any faster with Lipos or with Lee's mega unbuyable team equipment

[Bungleaio]

I think lipo will be legal next season, it makes sense to use it. They are so easy to look after, I've only heard of one person at my club losing a pack due to it swelling, I've not heard of anyone having one expode, I can't say the same for nmih.

One of my mates was using a shum Axis (last raced c2000) earlier this year with trakpowers 4800 saddles, ok they weren't an easy fit and he had to buy some different straps but they did go in. Before that he was using some IB4200's and they were a very tight fit. I was suprised to see how large "conventional" cells had grown over the years.

[DCM]

you lay down a size, length - width for a stick, and a max smaller one for a saddle, you could make a maximum height, but as the BRCA don't allow over 5000mAh at the mo....

[Lee Martin]

So no-ones allowed to express an opinion without you going jeez now?

[jcb]

I know the following may seem like I am completely against LIPO or making use of the latest technology, but I am NOT!!! However I do feel that it needs to be looked at with more than just a theoretical performance advantage in mind.

The big reasons for me at present being against LIPO is that:

1) They don’t fit in my 4wd and others without some serious modification, thus increasing the cost to either get a new car or chassis made, defeating the object that I would save money because I only have to buy a couple of packs.

2) May put new comers off, as the initial price seems slightly higher ok so in the long run you save money, but is a beginner going to be looking long term straight away?

3) LIPO’s all seem different sizes for what ever reason, and despite when they first came out it was said they were all the same performance you can now get 20c, 30c or what ever bringing in the same performance differences and increased prices comparable to sport and competition NIMH’s.

4) Could cause issues for shops with stock of equipment that is no longer popular with racers.

5) I (along with quite a few others) rely on selling my season old batteries at the end of the year to a club / regional racer to help finance my next years purchases. This is either going to end up in me selling them at a seriously low price or not even be able to shift them as the club / regional racer will prefer the ease of use and apparent performance from LIPO. Also as Racingdwarf has said makes equipment such as dischargers almost worthless.

6) Although there may be no significant performance advantage on tracks such as Worksop, Kidderminster or Stotfold that are either low grip or relatively small and technical an advantage would surely be seen at places with tracks of similar size to Oswestry and Talywain. I know in our region we have two tracks where an advantage is had by running brushless, let alone having a slightly lighter car with a smidge more voltage.

7) This is a bit more general and could include the large capacity cells and brushless motors but I feel it takes away some of the driving skills that were required to last a 5 minute race, everyone can now have a really quick car for 5 minutes. Which isn’t always a good thing. Do you really want to be trying to avoid potential unguided missiles as a newcomer gets sucked into thinking that they need LIPO and 4.5 brushless to be competitive.

8) Scrutineering could take longer and be made more difficult.

9) Increase in the number of rules.

10) Certain clubs may chose to get more racing in as LIPO don’t require the maintenance and apparent cooling down period after they have been used. I know it’s already been mentioned in our region that because we only have 3 heats on a good day that we could race every 20 minutes eeek, which is just impractical for anyone not having a LIPO.

So to summarise for me to be able to run LIPO for next year I would have to
1) Change my 4wd chassis
2) Get a LIPO charger and balancer thingy
3) Buy a LIPO (obvious I know)
4) Buy a LIPO charging pouch
5) I can’t sell my old cells, which wouldn’t be competitive against new cells or LIPO as the voltage and run time have dropped off.
6) My discharger and charger are worth almost nothing, as anyone buying something would get one that’s LIPO compatible.
7) It would probably be a good idea to get a voltage thingy for the ESC too as from what people say LIPO don’t like going to flat.

Therefore I reckon it will cost me more than all my NIMH’s cost me this year. I know eventually I will change over like I did with brushless, but I don’t think it’s as cheap as everyone makes out!!

[DCM]

Originally Posted by pidge

So no-ones allowed to express an opinion without you going jeez now?

well, you can flame, but hey, I reserve the right to respond in the same manner

[SHY]

Originally Posted by DoughtyUK.net

do you really think that more speed is needed than even a basic nmhi pack and a 4.5 ??

Agree Chris! We even run 5 cells just to get the power DOWN!

But still, many guys have problems with their NiMH cells dying, they must be soldered together, they blow up, they must be stored with some amount of current etc... a lot of hassle! LiPo is modern plug-and-play technology!

But I agree that mainly it's an "outside the car" advantage! (Except runtime during practise)

Note! For clublevel racing - why not increase the length of the heats?

@Elvo: I haven't gotten around to doing back-to-back tests with timing... but the B44 sure does seem better with 4800 LiPos. Very consistent power through the whole heat. And the weight is due to the batterys lower weight moved forward = tons of steering. This is on a dirt track with good traction. I still claim low weight is better for 4WD. For 2WD only with very high traction.

[telboy]

I think in the long run, it could encourage more people to 'go electric' for fun cars. As at the moment they all seem to buy nitro for the run time advantage.
But if everything goes Lipo, then even the elec' cars will run longer, and if people buy them, they may be encouraged to race them.

And all this could bring more youngsters into the hobby.
My 6yr old daughter wants to get a car to use and then race...she aint going to be using NiHm.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by SHY

Note! For clublevel racing - why not increase the length of the heats?

thought about that, but with those still on NiMHs and brushed, it would be a killer

[_sleigh_]

Originally Posted by DCM

you lay down a size, length - width for a stick, and a max smaller one for a saddle, you could make a maximum height, but as the BRCA don't allow over 5000mAh at the mo....

I understood the 5000mAh limit is not nessesarily down to the BRCA, i think it has something to do with legal transportation of cells on passenger aircraft. Something to do with the quantity of Lithium within the cell. The BRCA (and EFRA i believe) kept to the 5000 limit, as it would be silly to have a cell that racers couldn't travel to international events with.

I might have that wrong, but I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.

[DCM]

yes, there is a calculation that gives you the quantity of lithium to the capacity of the cell, and that there is a legal limit to how much Lithium you can ship on a plane.... hence the 5000mAh limit. I got wedged in a conversation between Worsley, Hardisity and myself.... aaaarrrgghhh my head hurt afterwards

[SHY]

Originally Posted by DCM

thought about that, but with those still on NiMHs and brushed, it would be a killer

Well, we've been doing that one whole season - with NiMH - 7 minutes and no one had problems! Even with old 3300 cells... Now with the new EFRA battery list there's mostly 4200 cells and above being used.

Even 5 cell packs last long enough for that...

If it's raining and you're racing on clay... you will dump though

[Kopite]

Originally Posted by _sleigh_

I understood the 5000mAh limit is not nessesarily down to the BRCA, i think it has something to do with legal transportation of cells on passenger aircraft. Something to do with the quantity of Lithium within the cell. The BRCA (and EFRA i believe) kept to the 5000 limit, as it would be silly to have a cell that racers couldn't travel to international events with.

I might have that wrong, but I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.

points like these are something i'd never even take into account when i'm just saying 'legalise LiPo'. I imagine there's a shit load of work to be done to collate a list of legal requirements for a new product such as LiPo?

[DCM]

if you manufacture and use in the same country, no problem, or ship them by water, no problem, but as soo as you air freight the,,,,