Bankers! Give the uk back our money!

[wacattack]

My god, what a blinkered view of the current situation. I'm not necessarily blaming you, much of this is due to how the press tell the story without really giving a true insight.

The so called bail out is a loan. A loan on favourable terms in which the country will benefit massively from.

What would you have proposed we do differently? Do you think we shouldn't have bailed the banks out? If we didn't, do you fully appreciate the consequences that would have caused.

Rubbish thread with no argument

[pro4nut]

Originally Posted by kayce

Dollars, pounds, euros, what-ever.

I tell you what you give me a hundred pounds and i will give you a hundred dollars.

In answer to your question, if you tell me how much private health care costs vs the taxed contribution of the average salaried earner in the United Kingdom is i will reply in greater detail. Fair?

[kayce]

Originally Posted by pro4nut

I tell you what you give me a hundred pounds and i will give you a hundred dollars.

In answer to your question, if you tell me how much private health care costs vs the taxed contribution of the average salaried earner in the United Kingdom is i will reply in greater detail. Fair?

Never mind, you're already in over your head.

[kayce]

Originally Posted by wacattack

My god, what a blinkered view of the current situation. I'm not necessarily blaming you, much of this is due to how the press tell the story without really giving a true insight.

The so called bail out is a loan. A loan on favourable terms in which the country will benefit massively from.

What would you have proposed we do differently? Do you think we shouldn't have bailed the banks out? If we didn't, do you fully appreciate the consequences that would have caused.

Rubbish thread with no argument

[Rebelrc]

Well don't comment then plonkers

[jim76]

Originally Posted by kayce

Never mind, you're already in over your head.

hmmm, cop out?

[Rebelrc]

This thread is rubbish
No ones biteing lol

[kayce]

Originally Posted by jim76

hmmm, cop out?

Not at all - it's just when their grasp of basic economics leaves one feeling as if they're trying to explain quantum physics to a first grader, it's a lost cause.

[Rebelrc]

The expert kayce
He knows best
He likes posting pics of real cars in the vega section lol

[kayce]

The expert Rebelrc
He knows best
He likes blaming the bankers for everything, and wouldn't know a real Vega if it bit him in the arse

[Rebelrc]

Of coarse I know the vega
My brother owns it and team xtreme
Oh real cars ford made one and chevy also kayce

[kayce]

Originally Posted by Rebelrc

Of coarse I know the vega
My brother owns it and team xtreme

Though, apparently, you don't know what a "real" Vega is - and, like other things, those posts went right over your head too.
Well done laddie.

Originally Posted by Rebelrc

You have the girls name

And you're a cross-dresser.
So what? lol

[Rebelrc]

I'm not a lady lol
You have the girls name
Vega is a planet in the constellation lyra or something like that!
This is great
Your so much fun!

[Si Coe]

Whilst I don't want to delve into the details or the debate, the simple fact is some people have profited from all of this. Including amongst others senior bankers and investors that gambled away other peoples money and rather than be sacked have retired on generous golden parachutes.
In essence in bailing out the banks we have paid for these peoples cushy futures whilst screwing up our own.

Its the simplest economics of all - if you are getting poorer, where has your money gone? It doesn't simply disappear!

[Rebelrc]

True si
At last someone that pays attention to what's happening!

[Rebelrc]

These banks were Taking risks with our money,
It went wrong, they lost then we give them 100s of billions (win) and they do the same.
If they Invest well and earn lots of cash then great ( win)
But if they lose we give them the money anyway ( win)
Where's the ethics of that. Decent hard working people should be angry as they don't have this back up system at tescos.

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by Rebelrc

This thread is rubbish
No ones biteing lol

Afraid your bait is not very good, and the hook is showing through so we can all see what you're doing!!

Originally Posted by Si Coe

Whilst I don't want to delve into the details or the debate, the simple fact is some people have profited from all of this. Including amongst others senior bankers and investors that gambled away other peoples money and rather than be sacked have retired on generous golden parachutes.
In essence in bailing out the banks we have paid for these peoples cushy futures whilst screwing up our own.

Its the simplest economics of all - if you are getting poorer, where has your money gone? It doesn't simply disappear!

This is capitalism, the economic model that has won the contest of the last 100 years. Communism and co-operatives have failed, capitalism has won. In a capitalist economy, someone has to win and someone has to lose.

This all started in 1987 with Big Bang, when the much-worshipped and admired Margaret Thatcher did two things - allowed the banks to combine trading of stocks with the provision of investment banking advice and financing. Governments around the world lowered the capital requirements of banks - the amount of capital they needed to back the loans they made - so we all had ready access to loads of money and we borrowed like hell. then we couldn't pay it back, so the banks had to increase their capital reserves to cover the bad loans which meant they couldn't lend as much to us - the credit squeeze of 2007/8.

At the same time, a lot of the credit instruments they created were proved to be worthless, so banks could not pay what they owed to each other (the trading of money to make money) and to avoid collapse, Governments lent them the money they needed to meet their capital reserves. If they didn't, then they would go bust taking our savings and deposits with them.

Because we couldn't borrow money (including small business) we didn't spend as much so we entered a recession. In a recession, the Government's income goes down, so taxes have to go up to pay for the shortfall. As the Blair/Brown, and Bush Governments had been spending like crazy (us on the NHS, Education and local services, Bush on wars in Iran and Afghanistan) there was no instant alternative to cutting Government spending.

To make sure this never happens again, Governments further raised the capital reserve requirements on banks, so they are still busy raising this capital which means they have no spare cash to lend to anyone. Government tries to remedy this by pumping more money into the economy by making ever larger loans to the banks - quantative easing. We have to borrow this money, we issue more bonds, we have to pay more interest. At this rate, by 2014, almost 15% of our taxes will go to paying interest!

So, no, your money does not disappear. If you don't get a pay rise, and you can't borrow money, you can't get richer. In a recession you don't get a pay rise and your taxes go up, and in a credit squeeze you can't borrow money easily. Your money hasn't gone anywhere, it's just that you can't get enough to keep up with the rise in costs.

And just in case anyone is left with any good feelings about Margaret Thatcher, she was also the one who ran down our manufacturing industry in order to break the Unions, who decided that was not a problem because we would become a service and finance economy, and then privatised the utility companies because she said we needed more competition to drive down gas electricity and water bills!! And it was Gordon Brown who decided to tax the dividends paid into our pension funds which has led to them being decimated and us having lower pensions!

You can wind us up all you like Rebelrc, but this is what happens when you live in a capitalist economy. There's a rational explanation for it all, providing you don't believe what you read in the papers. That's all folks!!

[justleanitupabit]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

And just in case anyone is left with any good feelings about Margaret Thatcher, she was also the one who ran down our manufacturing industry in order to break the Unions, who decided that was not a problem because we would become a service and finance economy, and then privatised the utility companies because she said we needed more competition to drive down gas electricity and water bills!! And it was Gordon Brown who decided to tax the dividends paid into our pension funds which has led to them being decimated and us having lower pensions!

You can wind us up all you like Rebelrc, but this is what happens when you live in a capitalist economy. There's a rational explanation for it all, providing you don't believe what you read in the papers. That's all folks!!

I agree with most of your post and it is largely correct except the bit above, Thatcher didn't shut down decent, efficient manufacturing plants that produced quality products.

She closed down these plants because they were by making absolute crap and were losing a huge amount of money and costing the country a fortune.

The Callaghan government was completely beholdant to Trades Unions who throughout the 70's went on strike whenever they felt like it, affecting quality, production and profitability of these state owned (at the time) assets. If you're looking a guilty party for the demise of the UK Large scale industrials look no further than the Labour government and the Trades Unions of the 70's.

Also

Labour did it again recently with the tendering process for the contract to build 100's of trains - they set the criteria which was biased AGAINST Bombardier (a British firm) and then also made the decision legally binding, so when a German firm (Siemens) won, there was no way the new Conservative government could do anything about it.

Thanks Labour.

[mattr]

Originally Posted by justleanitupabit

I agree with most of your post and it is largely correct except the bit above, Thatcher didn't shut down decent, efficient manufacturing plants that produced quality products.

She closed down these plants because they were by making absolute crap and were losing a huge amount of money and costing the country a fortune.

The Callaghan government was completely beholdant to Trades Unions who throughout the 70's went on strike whenever they felt like it, affecting quality, production and profitability of these state owned (at the time) assets. If you're looking a guilty party for the demise of the UK Large scale industrials look no further than the Labour government and the Trades Unions of the 70's.

Yup, but to expand (a little)

Yes, the labour party/unions stuffed it up good and proper in the 70s, Thatcher then leapt so far the other way, that even those companies who did have worthwhile products they could develop and sell suffered badly. Basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater (small baby, large bath).

Most/all other European countries give large scale tax breaks to R&D spend (some make it positively beneficial to spend cash on R&D). The Thatcher governments policies pretty much made it financial suicide to invest in R&D within the UK (compared to doing it in, say, Germany). So even the non-UK based companies moved work/R&D to other countries in Europe (and now to china, india and so on) or holding companies bailed out and sold off/closed down UK based companies to minimise exposure. Those remaining borderline/potentially successful UK based, UK owned businesses ended up with little/no chance in the European/Global market. And are now mostly owned by someone else. Or gone forever.

Unfortunately, successive governments since then have proceeded to do the same. So now there isn't much left to save.
Except, on the whole, the very very top end of the high cost/technology
market, where customers really will pay thro the nose for cutting edge knowledge based stuff. F1, Aerospace, Surface treatment, Composites and so on.

[justleanitupabit]

Originally Posted by mattr

Yup, but to expand (a little)

Yes, the labour party/unions stuffed it up good and proper in the 70s, Thatcher then leapt so far the other way, that even those companies who did have worthwhile products they could develop and sell suffered badly. Basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater (small baby, large bath).

Most/all other European countries give large scale tax breaks to R&D spend (some make it positively beneficial to spend cash on R&D). The Thatcher governments policies pretty much made it financial suicide to invest in R&D within the UK (compared to doing it in, say, Germany). So even the non-UK based companies moved work/R&D to other countries in Europe (and now to china, india and so on) or holding companies bailed out and sold off/closed down UK based companies to minimise exposure. Those remaining borderline/potentially successful UK based, UK owned businesses ended up with little/no chance in the European/Global market. And are now mostly owned by someone else. Or gone forever.

Unfortunately, successive governments since then have proceeded to do the same. So now there isn't much left to save.
Except, on the whole, the very very top end of the high cost/technology
market, where customers really will pay thro the nose for cutting edge knowledge based stuff. F1, Aerospace, Surface treatment, Composites and so on.

Yes agreed but protectionism doesn't work, it is difficult to tailor legislation to allow "good" firms to prosper and "bad" firms to go under, especially when the "bad" outnumber the "good" by such wide margins and when we're thrown into the Common Market as it was then called.

Unfortunately when we are good we're the best in the world (F1 technology for example) when we're bad we're the worst.

Edit

And also what is hugely annoying and very important is that the part the general public played in this whole mess is totally and utterly ignored by all politicians because they are not brave enough to mention it.