BRCA Regulations - Cell Dimensions 2008

[Lee]

Its ok, i got hit by a piece of exploding battery and it doesn`t hurt it just gives you a little black mark as a reminder.


Cells are safe again

[Chrislong]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

Which is absolutely what we have all been told NOT to do. Didn't anyone think to remind drivers at briefing, and post copies of the EB advice on the results board?

Yep, Northy did a great job of bringing up the subject, but this happened Pre-briefing. This guy isn't one who reads the forums or even has the internet, so I guess he hadn't been pre-informed..... I did mention to him all the advice when we had a chat, and later on I asked him about his settings and he'd gone to 4.5amp asof the "bang".

What suprised me is how early in the charge which it went up.

I sympathise with DCM.

Whats the chances of no rule change atall happening like rumoured?

[DCM]

personaly, I can appreciate the rule being changed as of cells being homologated come April, but those already on the list should be left, as at the time, they were cleared by the EB.

[Lee]

I think its funny how suddenly its a common occurence for cells to blow up???

I have run 4200`s for 2 years now and hammered them in touring cars, charging @10 amps at times (if needed) and never saw one go pop, why are they just starting to go bang, what has changed, people are treating them no different as far as i know.

[twisty]

BRCA can shove it where the sun don't shine!!

I understood this bit Dude.

If manufacturers are making explosives for you to handle surely it is them who is to blame,not the BRCA? should they not be re-called? if you have no confidence in the saftey of a product,surely you should take it back to where it was bought from?
The main point here is safety,surely?
DCM,how would you feel if a pack blows up near one of YOUR children?

[Col]

Probably inferior quality cells to keep up with demand?

[mark-rc]

Hi all, I am the person who's VTEC Cells went bang at Batley today. first off I must point out that I have been racing for 19 years, and those that know me know just how much detail I put in, in to making sure that all the equipment I use is being used as it should be and is always in top condition.

After every one had finished talking to me about what had happened and had finished taking the pis*!, I went through all the settings on the charger, just in case it was because of the charger. I thought I was charging the pack on '6'amps, but it was actually charging at '4.9'amps with the cut off set at 5mV. The pack was fresh off the discharge tray and all the cells had been equalised down to 1.0V. At the time the pack went bang they had just got to 2100mah! All the remaining cells were cool to the touch, apart from the one next to the exploding cell. I have four of these packs, they are all top quality packs and they are all only six meetings old! Needless to say the rest of the packs went back in to the battery box and were not used for fear of the same thing happening again!

I can tell you that when the pack went it had enough force to blow all of the tools and some wheels and tyres off the table!

As far as I am concerned, it is not myself who is at fault for the pack blowing up! It is quite clear that some of the VTEC / IB 4200 cells are faulty! And after seeing what can happen, I now have no confidence or faith in using these cells! And can only be grateful that no one was stood next to the table when it went, as the pack gave little to no warning before it went!

And as for selling the packs on to club racers! I could not live with myself knowing that I had just sold on batteries that could potentially cause harm or damage to another racer and/or there equipment!

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by DCM

dude, you just have NO IDEA do you. I have been a member of the BRCA since 1988, and the EB is voted in to enforce and manage the rules. if they decide tomorrow that IB4200 are illegal, I am screwed, and so are lots of other people in the same boat.

As has been said above the 'they' regarding the BRCA includes you. The EB isn't a secret organisation, it's just 3 r/c racers like you, who follow the rules which are voted for by the members of the BRCA. They don't force their own rules on the racers, the racers decide all the rules and vote for them at the AGM. This rule was change was added over a year ago and if you aren't happy you could have either voted against it then or voted to have it removed at the last AGM. There has been plenty of advance warning as this rule change was listed in last years BRCA handbook. The rules have been the same every year, the batteries and motors that are homologated for next years racing are only listed the 1st January that year, so even if the batteries fit the dimensions there is no guarantee they will be on next years homologation list. This happens every year, not just this one. Personally if I was planning on racing in BRCA sanctioned events I would wait until nearer the start of the season, based on recent experience of the lifetime of IB4200s there's a good chance you would need to buy new batteries next spring anyway.

The problem seems to me you have bought new cells now which you bought to use for next years racing and you are unhappy that they will not be legal for racing. But you could buy the cells now and IB submit 4500mah cells to the EB, now you are looking at replacing your cells again but this time it's for the extra performance. I realise your situation isn't common, with having to buy extra sets for your children, but as they use your old cells I presume they don't need top spec packs so there is a cost saving there.

There's also the fact that for club racing it is down to the individual clubs to decide what batteries they allow, the BRCA can't dictate to the clubs. Also IB4200s might still be allowed in BRCA sanctioned events due to the quantities in circulation, like the EP4200s this year when plenty of the non homologated version were sold as BRCA legal. We'll just have to wait and see what is and isn't allowed.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by Lee

I think its funny how suddenly its a common occurrence for cells to blow up???

Not a sudden occurrence, exploding IB4200s have been known since the beginning of the yearhttp://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27232
and I've certainly been recommending to my club members to avoid IB4200s since spring. It is becoming more common lately as IB seem to be tweaking the cells to get more performance out of them and the BRCA website has a list of the batches of the cells more likely to explode.

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by mark-rc

I went through all the settings on the charger, just in case it was because of the charger. I thought I was charging the pack on '6'amps, but it was actually charging at '4.9'amps with the cut off set at 5mV.

As far as I am concerned, it is not myself who is at fault for the pack blowing up!

I'm glad neither you nor anyone else were hurt. Nonetheless, when the manufacturer says charge at 1C (4.2A) and you usually charge at 6A, and when you thought it was 6A but it wasn't (and could just as easily have been higher) why do you think this was not your fault?

The one thing these incidents have in common is a high charge rate, and much higher (up to 50%, like yours) than IB recommend. I agree (and so do IB, they've recommended that some cells not be used) that there is a fault somewhere, but charging at 6A isn't helping the situation.

Has anyone managed to find the IB batch codes on VTEC cells? I've checked mine closely and can't find any, which doesn't help me identify if I have any on the list posted on the BRCA site. Any clues, anyone...

[DCM]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

The problem seems to me you have bought new cells now which you bought to use for next years racing and you are unhappy that they will not be legal for racing. But you could buy the cells now and IB submit 4500mah cells to the EB, now you are looking at replacing your cells again but this time it's for the extra performance. I realise your situation isn't common, with having to buy extra sets for your children, but as they use your old cells I presume they don't need top spec packs so there is a cost saving there.

even if IB brought out new cells, I wouldn't go and buy them, my last IB cells lasted 2 years, and still going ok, just not a fresh set of legs on them anymore. I don't buy cells for that cutting edge, and most people don't either.

The EB has power to enforce rules as it see's fit (re- soldering batteries), and as far as I am concerned, I bought legal cells, so i shall still use them.

[losixxx]

yes you can possibly until april. then depending if you want to be a BRCA member and race at there events and depending on if the cells are made illegal you can't...

your choice...

same as any other motor sport...do you think honda would get away with using traction control next year because they bought it before it was banned!

the BRCA would only do this for safety grounds if there's any chance that these cells will harm people then IMHO they should be banned

[DCM]

thinking about it, I would only suffer if I were to run at a BRCA event to BRCA rules, as I only run local, it doesn't matter, and as I remember, Jim Spencer has pointed out that we are insured either way, up to a 25cc engine.

[mark-rc]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

I'm glad neither you nor anyone else were hurt. Nonetheless, when the manufacturer says charge at 1C (4.2A) and you usually charge at 6A, and when you thought it was 6A but it wasn't (and could just as easily have been higher) why do you think this was not your fault?:

I think this is not my fault, because of the 'User Guide' that came with the Cells! The Guide says to charge the cells at 5-5.5amps with a cut off of 15mV. The charger I was using to to charge the cells was bought new when I got the cells, the setting were 'never' changed to 6amps! and all of the pack have only ever been charged at 4.9amps with the cut off at 5mV. This is .6amp and 10mV on the safe side of what the 'manufacturer' recommends!!

[Northy]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

Yep, Northy did a great job of bringing up the subject, but this happened Pre-briefing.

Thanks Chris, I read out all the current best practise guidlines from the BRCA EB at drivers breifing, and stuck them up next to the heat listing, but as has been said this happened during practise.

I accept your appology though SlowOne, it's ok......

G

[twisty]

Originally Posted by DCM

thinking about it, I would only suffer if I were to run at a BRCA event to BRCA rules, as I only run local, it doesn't matter, and as I remember, Jim Spencer has pointed out that we are insured either way, up to a 25cc engine.

Way off topic now,but re size of engines,it is actually 30cc max as stated in general rules in the hand book.

[DCM]

so, either way, covered, just won't be able to do a national event.... bummer... lol

[MattW]

I must admit, this ocurance of Mark's is probably the most worrying one that i have heard.

So far we have been told that the problem is caused by certain cells peaking in a pack before the others, but not having enough effect on the overall pack delta voltage. This was an explanation that i could happily accept. However, a cell peaking at 2000mAh?? seems unlikely - unless that cell was effectively dead anyway. So based on this, how would you know..................... As it happens in this case, i would struggle to blame the user.

EB rule changes are an interesting subject, as the membership does not have a direct say on them. They are not voted directly at the AGM. Now i know each section has their representation, but for anyone to say that we all have a say in them is stretching a point a little.

[Northy]

Now I'm not saying this is what happened to Marks cells, but just thought I would mention it.

Several times I have put cells on my smart tray, pressed the button, and one LED goes out straight away. I've removed the cells, squeezed in the tabs, tried again and that cell discharges like all the others.

Just a heads up while we're on the subject. I suppose if this happened to someone, they were using their smart tray to discharge quite a bit out of the cells and they didn't realise, then that cell would be overcharged.

G

[Chrislong]

Originally Posted by Northy

Now I'm not saying this is what happened to Marks cells, but just thought I would mention it.

Several times I have put cells on my smart tray, pressed the button, and one LED goes out straight away. I've removed the cells, squeezed in the tabs, tried again and that cell discharges like all the others.

Just a heads up while we're on the subject. I suppose if this happened to someone, they were using their smart tray to discharge quite a bit out of the cells and they didn't realise, then that cell would be overcharged.

G

It is a very good point G. I have some tekin boards which have dead LED's and im nervous of using them... infact my old cells deteriorated very fast but seem to become lively again since using the Smart tray.... I regret that I delayed using the Smart tray as my cells were soldered in reverse polarity for it, but ive slowly switched my packs over and wish id done it long ago.

I can vouch for Mark, he is a very careful guy. personally I wouldn't doubt that Mark had his cells connected properly, but a valid point to raise for people to take note of.