F1 Germany Live

[bodgit]

they the stewards imposed the max fine but they could have added time on to both ferrari drivers final times to relegate them certainly off the podium.

[telboy]

The FIA handed the fine. The World motorsport council is now looking into it.

They say its the maximum fine they could hand out. But didn't Mclaren get fined something stupid like £40m for the spying thing the other year?

[poopers]

I think there's a clear case of "bringing the sport into disrepute" that Ferrari might have to answer with the FIA, they really handled that badly.

But then the FIA were stupid to have a knee jerk reaction and impose the no team orders rule in the first place. There'll always be team orders and it's impossible to police them, we've had great racing in the past with team orders.

So both the FIA and Ferrari have been stupid and pissed off the fans, some things never change.

[SHY]

Niki Lauda's comment:

Former world champion Niki Lauda was critical of Ferrari's decision, labelling the race a fraud for the fans.

"An obvious and unacceptable episode of team orders. People buy tickets to see the best man win. What has happened is a fraud against the spectators," Lauda was quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport.

"The Ferrari team was providing a superlative performance. Why did they want to ruin this way what would have been a perfect victory? Fernando has talked such nonsense that I've never heard before. He has shown he has no character."

I'd like to see only one driver pr. team, that would end this nonsence once and for all...

Still, I've been watching every single race for so many years now. And I haven't seen a team order since back when Rubens let Schumi past... so what episodes are we talking about? In my opinion no other teams actually practise this, not even behind the scenes.

And I'm sooooo hoping for a points penalty for Ferrari! (driver points)

I'm also very happy with Alonso getting what he deserves in the press! I'm even starting to wonder if he actually knew about the race fixing crash in Singapore'2008... he seems to be more than happy with lying into the camera...

Alonso used to be my favorite driver. He's on the bottom of my list of favorite F1 drivers! Schumi is second last now...

Go Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Webber!

[DaveG28]

I assume some of these comments are a joke??

What do you all think Mclaren did in turkey!!??

"Jenson, we need to save fuel"

Jenson then overtakes Lewis and then Lewis gets him back, followed by:

"Jenson, we're fuel critical, please slow down more"..

Seriously, that was team orders too. The difference here is instead of telling the drivers to hold station, they told them to swap...

[DaveG28]

I also think everyone may have missed the point of what they did, although maybe I just read the wrong papers...

Alonso was right on Massa's tail, then dropped back a few seconds out of the slipstream. Sneaker then tells Massa "you can still win this, you need to five it everything now", he and Alonso the ntraded fastest laps till he was told "Fernando is faster".
Do Ferrari have an agreement that when 1-2 the driver who can set the fastest lap gets to win?

Better than just telling people to hold position in my book...

[SHY]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

I assume some of these comments are a joke??

What do you all think Mclaren did in turkey!!??

"Jenson, we need to save fuel"

Jenson then overtakes Lewis and then Lewis gets him back, followed by:

"Jenson, we're fuel critical, please slow down more"..

Seriously, that was team orders too. The difference here is instead of telling the drivers to hold station, they told them to swap...

I agree that the information about saving fuel was in order for them not to take each other out in a "Red Bull fight" ... It might have been true first of all (didn't also other teams save at the end at that race?). But in my opinion they needed points badly and wanted them to stay cool

BUT - Jenson still did an overtaking maneuvre, which caught Lewis by surprise. But they had a good fight and Lewis managed to hold his position. And as far as I know there were no issues around this later. I really don't think that qualifies for a team order. It's something else when you most likely have a contract stating you are the 2nd driver (like Rubens had, and maybe Massa now). And you are told to let someone by.

On top of that they speak to them like they are 8 years old!

[SHY]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

I also think everyone may have missed the point of what they did, although maybe I just read the wrong papers...

Alonso was right on Massa's tail, then dropped back a few seconds out of the slipstream. Sneaker then tells Massa "you can still win this, you need to five it everything now", he and Alonso the ntraded fastest laps till he was told "Fernando is faster".
Do Ferrari have an agreement that when 1-2 the driver who can set the fastest lap gets to win?

Better than just telling people to hold position in my book...

Naaaa... in my personal opinion Alonso has showed that he does not handle very well to have a team mate that can give him a fight. Remember how desperate he was at McLaren together with Lewis? He did a lot of kamikaze starts there to try and recover...

I think he constantly tries to psyche out Massa. Remember him passing Massa in the pitlane entrance or exit one of the races this year? In this race he's whining "this is ridicilous" on the radio. The object is obviously to pressure the team to order Massa to let him by... And with his points advantage to Massa he of course has some leverage with his team. BUT! It's simply unfair! And his integrity is worthless when he in the previous race states that FIA and McLaren had manipulated the race...

On this track with this year's cars passing clearly wasn't really possible, so that goes for all teams and drivers. Qualification and the start then is where you can do it. And Massa did it best, and deserved to win! It also would have been his 1st win since his near fatal accident 1 year ago.

Even though Massa is far from my favorite driver (he's fast for sure, but he just cannot make a pass nor drive in the wet, and he like Alonso whines like a girl ), he still deserved 100% to win last sunday!

Back to McLaren, I agree that the fuel save request wasn't good either. And chances are slim that Jenson would manage a pass on Lewis. Lewis can pass like nobody else in F1!

Sorry for getting so carried away btw! I just love F1, and this just got me so bloody upset!

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Luca di Montezemolo has made his first public comments over Ferrari’s actions at the German Grand Prix by insisting that 'the interests of the team come before those of the individual'.

In a statement on Ferrari’s website following the 'splendid one-two finish' at Hockenheim, di Montezemolo also insisted that he had no interest in the controversy that surrounded the team’s decision to ask Felipe Massa to move over and let Fernando Alonso take victory at Hockenheim and hit out at the hypocrisy of those people who have come out to criticise the decision taken.
Ferrari has come underfire for its decision to impose team orders during the race, with Massa having led the way from the start before a coded message on the radio led to him moving over to allow Alonso through into the lead of the race.
Despite denying the use of team orders after the race, Ferrari was fined $100,000 by the FIA and could still face further sanctions from the governing body when it appears before the World Motor Sport Council.
Di Montezemolo however was unrepentant over what happened at Hockenheim and said he was delighted to see his team back on top of the F1 podium for the first time since the season opener in Bahrain.
“I am very happy for all our fans who finally, yesterday, saw two Ferraris lead from start to finish as they dominated the race,” he said. “The result is down to the efforts of all our people, who never give up. Now we have to continue working like this, to improve the car so that is competitive at all the circuits we will encounter. Alonso and Massa also did very well, giving their all throughout the weekend.
“The polemics are of no interest to me. I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual. In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari and I experienced it myself when I was sporting director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then. “Therefore enough of this hypocrisy, even if I can well believe that some people might well have liked to see our two drivers eliminate one another, but that is definitely not the case for me or indeed for our fans.”

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by SHY

Taking away the constructors championship is indeed a good idea, who really cares about that anyway?

Still, I think Ferrari wants a driver's win most of all. The constructors is just "nice to have". So it wouldn't really help much as to team orders in my opinion.

Who cares?!!!!!! They all care, and they all care to the tune of $37m if you come in tenth place in the Constructors!! That's what it will mean to Lotus if they manage to beat all the other new teams.

The winning team gets $80m. These amounts have almost tripled in the last four years, and are the biggest bone of contention between Bernie and the Teams. Although the money has gone up substantially, they still think that (roughly) 50% to Bernie and 50% to them is a poor deal - and it used to be that the Teams got less! Also bear in mind that sponsorship is harder to come by these days, and so these amounts mean a lot to every team...

...except Ferrari. They are run by the car company, and they don't really need as much sponsorship as the others. In that respect you have a point - it doesn't mean as much to Ferrari as the Drivers Championship. But the others want to run their teams to their benefit in terms of the Constructors title, and care less about the Drivers title. Getting the Drivers title costs them money, getting the Constructors title makes them money.

Still a bad do about Ferrari blatantly breaking the Rules - here's hoping the FIA take a dimmer view than the Stewards...

[telboy]

I know that at the end of the day there will always be team orders. but it was the way it was done so blatantly that made it all more obvious.

I know there was 'fuel saving' in turkey, and I think that to solve this problem, they should just make sure that every car starts the race with enough fuel to finish the race. Then they can't use the 'save fuel' talk to mask it over....surely it is that obvious?
Then any other orders that are given can only mean one thing?

If the team want to issue team orders, then they issue them in the board room before the race. Then its up to the drivers to decide on track. Remember Prost and Senna? mclaren once had a 'who ever gets to the first corner first, wins the race' strategy....only for senna to p*** allover prosts chips and kept passing him. But if it wasn't for him doing that, we wouldn't have had the fiery relationship we had between them, and it lead to awesome racing.

So do away with pit to car radio, give them enough fuel to finish the race 'flat out', and let them bloody race!!

....then we'll see if it really was 'massa's decision' to let alonso through!!

[Chequered Flag Racing]

Originally Posted by telboy

So do away with pit to car radio, give them enough fuel to finish the race 'flat out', and let them bloody race!!

Agree

[bodgit]

[QUOTE=telboy
So do away with pit to car radio, give them enough fuel to finish the race 'flat out', and let them bloody race!!

Too dangerous to do away with the radio. Drivers need to be told if their car has problems which could endanger their own or fellow drivers lives, so they can retire to the pits. An example a few years back (cant remember the team) but a rear wing fell off and they had to warn the other driver to slow down in case his came off at 200mph.
As for the fuel to the finish all teams should be made to do that so we dont hear "Save fuel" orders again.

[telboy]

Just do what they used to do, and tell them to 'pit' and give it a check over.

OR

...Just use pit to car radio for that purpose only.

[SHY]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

Who cares?!!!!!! They all care, and they all care to the tune of $37m if you come in tenth place in the Constructors!! That's what it will mean to Lotus if they manage to beat all the other new teams.

The winning team gets $80m. These amounts have almost tripled in the last four years, and are the biggest bone of contention between Bernie and the Teams. Although the money has gone up substantially, they still think that (roughly) 50% to Bernie and 50% to them is a poor deal - and it used to be that the Teams got less! Also bear in mind that sponsorship is harder to come by these days, and so these amounts mean a lot to every team...

...except Ferrari. They are run by the car company, and they don't really need as much sponsorship as the others. In that respect you have a point - it doesn't mean as much to Ferrari as the Drivers Championship. But the others want to run their teams to their benefit in terms of the Constructors title, and care less about the Drivers title. Getting the Drivers title costs them money, getting the Constructors title makes them money.

Still a bad do about Ferrari blatantly breaking the Rules - here's hoping the FIA take a dimmer view than the Stewards...

Sorry, I didn't know that. Thanks for the information, very interesting! I'll admit I was totally wrong on that point then!

[SHY]

Originally Posted by Chequered Flag Racing

Agree

Brilliant idea!!!

And if the brakes etc. overheat... so be it!

[SHY]

[QUOTE=bodgit;397976][QUOTE=telboy
So do away with pit to car radio, give them enough fuel to finish the race 'flat out', and let them bloody race!!

Too dangerous to do away with the radio. Drivers need to be told if their car has problems which could endanger their own or fellow drivers lives, so they can retire to the pits. An example a few years back (cant remember the team) but a rear wing fell off and they had to warn the other driver to slow down in case his came off at 200mph.
As for the fuel to the finish all teams should be made to do that so we dont hear "Save fuel" orders again.[/QUOTE]

Well, keep the radio then. But let only Charlie speak to the drivers If the teams have something to tell, let race control pass it on...

[bodgit]

[QUOTE=SHY;398108]

Originally Posted by bodgit

Well, keep the radio then. But let only Charlie speak to the drivers If the teams have something to tell, let race control pass it on...

Still would not work. If more than one team at a time had an urgent safety message and only charlie could relay it then how do you decide the importance of each message.
Teams have to be responsible for their own radio transmissions and adhere to the rules.
A simple remedy may be that if team orders are heard over the radio in any guise then that team automatically drop 10 places for both drivers and the maximum fine.

[pro4nut]

No pit radio would/could work, they still have pit boards and sticking a pit board out with 'pit'/'box' and an arrow worked in the past.
Its interesting as i work in the bookmaking industry and this is an interesting point where a result in effect is fixed as we are still required to payout on an outcome that was created.
To shed some light though in horseracing a trainer may have more than 1 horse in a race and it is not unkown to use one as a pacer, which then drops back to block the competition. It is also not allowed but still happens.
I don't think there is a solution to this happening the thing i find amusing is surely they could have done it more cleverly. An instruction for Massa to turn down the engine, Alonso to turn it up and then the overtake to take place at a corner agreed before the race

[SlowOne]

Is this conversation real? Go look at any of the excellent BBC clips from races in the 1980s!! Cars were fueled and tyred for the whole race, there were no radios, wings fell off, cars had no crash or crumple zones, pits were open to the race track... The drivers had to slow down because they ran out of brakes, tyres or fuel. Sure, there were good battles, but most were resolved by one driver or the other running low on fuel, brakes or tyres long before the chequered flag. If what you want is a return to that era, then go watch Historic F1 at any British race circuit.

The 'radio for safety' argument is a red herring. If it's that critical, teams can either send a signal to the car, or shut down the engine from the pits, through the telemetry. We have what we have, and it is going to get more complex, not less.