210 vs 410 Build Quality

[tomvanelsen]

The 210 was my first building kit and as a "unexperienced boy", it isnt the build quality that i think is bad(i find that it is a pretty easy to build kit), but its some of the parts that could have been better like the layshaft spacer,shock mounts(cuz they're a pain in the butt) and the rear shocktower.
Besides that i think its wrong that you guys are comparing durango to losi, ae or schumacher, but dont understand me wrong, they're all great companies, that all have their own little "faults", but what you guys are doing is comparing apples with bananas.
This is my point of view on the subject, if ive offended someone with this, im sorry i didnt mean to, so dont get mad at me.
-Tom-

[dpackster1980]

Originally Posted by jkclifford

So it would be better if the complete car was ally and carbon. For £350

Rear hubs with 0' toe c hubs with no set castor, front Hubs with no trailing adjustment rear wishbone holders with no anti squat, all made out if ally.

So out the box it looks the nuts but performace is down ands needs tweaking, Then get charged ££ for rear hubs with some toe in, ££ for wishbone hangers with anti squat, £££ more or less castor.

And of course after having the originaly ally parts you couldn't degrade youself and put plastic parts on, have to be ally ones.


the insert system is just amazing, how many times have parts been bought tried then slung in the box cos they wre no better or worse?!

Race performace 1st looks 2nd.

Did I mention alloy parts? Nope
Do I want all singing all dancing shock towers? Nope

A good example is the 410v3, alloy hangers all round, gold shock shafts, alloy shock oring caps and that has more machined parts plus 4wd. Yes its 4wd but spec wise it's amazing for the money (£90 more than a 210) well done Durango.

Then look at the 210 spec, what do you actually get for your money very little apart from an alloy rear suspension hanger. Very poor indeed.

The performance is fine, but put it next to your box stock 410v3 and wonder could they have tried harder?????

The first 3 things I mentioned in the original post would probably be fine and would cost durango very little indeed as they have been knocking them out since day one. Fair enough alloy hexes I would class as a luxury but the rest is what everyone would generally expect and be happy with.

I'm not bashing Great Planes but seriously I know they've been reducing the cost and specs of the kits to make them more appealling but they didn't need to so drastically on the 210 compared to other models this is my gripe.

[Jamesy]

Originally Posted by dpackster1980

Then look at the 210 spec, what do you actually get for your money?

A 2wd buggy that can compete at the highest levels in both rear and mid motor configurations that is competative 'out of the box' for a price just a little more than some mid motor conversion kits.

[AfroP]

Originally Posted by Jamesy

A 2wd buggy that can compete at the highest levels in both rear and mid motor configurations that is competative 'out of the box' for a price just a little more than some mid motor conversion kits.

You could argue that you get that from the 22 as well at less of the price.but with more in the kit. Alloy shock caps. Metal shock standoffs and titanium turnbuckles

[AfroP]

Double post. Sorry

[TonyM]

While waiting for the 210 to be released I bought a 22 and was so disappointed with many aspects of that kit, in particular the almost impossible task of fitting in the electronics into such a ridiculously confined space – shorty lipo’s!!!.

I found the 210 build a breeze. Sure, the manual was incorrect, but I just went by the pictures, found the right parts and hey-presto job done.

At a few pounds/dollars/Euros over many of the conversion kits, which also require a donor car, I think the 210 is fantastic value. It works out of the box. OK, there are a few week points e.g. rear shock tower and steering link in particular, which you soon fix with hop-ups. However, I’d bet there are fewer hop-ups which are really needed for this buggy than most others on the market.

Having said all of that, I’d agree that for an extra £10-£20 it would have been nice to have the shock alu bottoms and 410 shock stand-offs as standard. I’d also pay an extra £6-8 to have a TD equivalent for the brilliant Tresrey rear hexes’.

[Chris Doughty]

Hello All,

I'm interested to work out more what the deal is here.

Is the perceived problem with 'spec' or with 'quality'?

There also seems to be a big spread between people who really liked the kit, and people that really didn't like the kit, I'm keen to work out how there can be such a broad spread of opinion.

Other than mistakes in the manual which have been corrected for the online version and all future prints, what else is wrong with the manual? how would you have liked it to be better?
The way the current TD manuals work is that they are an assembly instruction manual, they are not a build guide, we use our Team Tech Tips section of our website where we can be far more content rich and go into more details of the process and techniques to building stuff.

Just so everyone knows for sure, the DEX210 project was BEFORE the Hobbico/Great Planes deal.

I'm also slightly confused by people saying they would happily pay more for the kit if it had a better specification... whats the difference between this and just buying the option parts?

I'm interested to hear everyone's feedback, TD always try and produce the best cars possible (certainly for quality) and also want the spec affordable to the broadest range of people and that is a race winner right out of the box.

and in my opinion, the DEX210 IS that... I ran a box stock DEX210 with optional gear diff (because I gave away my Ball Diff to another driver) - the ball diff might have actually been better at that track!
I ran the KIT springs, KIT pistons.

Thanks

[lordnikon]

Chris, nice to see TD taking some interest in customer feedback

As a 'step up' from my previous ansmann X2c i found the build quite straight forward. I didn't know about the online manual being 'fixed' and just worked around the obvious mistakes in the one provided in the box. If it had been my first build of an RC car then it would have been quite confusing with the errors, so if wanting to appeal to 'newbies' then this needs sorting.

I dont think the spec is bad at all personally, ok it may not be upto the 410, but i have never had one so cant really compare.

As an out of the box 'race' ready car i think it hits the mark. I purchased the 401 stand offs, rear tower, steering link and the cream weight stuff, but this is part of the hobby. It would have worked out of the box, the option parts make it better.

I would say however if it had the option parts in it and the price was another £20-£30 more i would have probably looked more at the SV2.

[TonyM]

Chris - as stated already, it's almost perfect out of the box, but you asked for ideas for improvement, so here goes:-

1. Get your hints and tips ready before a new product launch. I, like many others, didn't realise that the thrust washers had slightly different hole diameters and also that there is a wrong and right way to insert the circlip. Result, 2 diffs blown before the hints and tips section on building the diff came out a couple months later. Also, I can't see why this simple information couldn't have been put in the manual.
2. If a part looks weak re-engineer it before launching it. A prime example is the steering link. When we first saw this at my club we all said it would break too easily and sure enough it does.
3. If something works perfectly on another model, don’t reinvent the wheel and produce a lesser item. E.g the tower shock mounts – almost everyone I know has converted to the 410 rear mount all round. Not for bling, but ease of changing positions.
4. When bringing out a hop-up to fix issues first look at what others have done. E.g. wheel hexes, Losi, Tresrey and many others have produced hexes with screws so you don’t have to worry about losing the pin. The TD alu hex is just a straight copy of the plastic one.
5. Body – change it so you don’t have to use the silly cowling. Many others have produced bodies which fit both mid and rear motor mounts without the need for a cowling.
6. Try and lighten the diagrams in your manual. Sometimes it's difficult to see any detail as it's just coloured too dark to see any distinguishing features.

[Chris Doughty]

Tony, thanks for the feedback.

I'll not reply to everything individually as I know I will end up spending all day on here playing forum tennis with everyone. but here are a few points.

the c-clip thing - the single biggest thing with this is over-crimping the clip - this is very bad. the orientation of the clip and small details like this can slightly help to compensate for this so our build guide and tech tip mentions this to ensure the best chance of it working well.
if you use the correct c-clip pliers and very very careful to not over-crimp the clip, It will work with the clip both ways round.

The body does not need to be used with the cowls, you can simply cut out your rear section for your motor plate.
The reason we went with the option for the cowls is that you can use a single painted body with ALL configurations, when you change to rear-motor (for example oOple race) you use the same body, just with the rear motor cowl, no hole in your body for where your motor plate would be...
also, no Ugly bulges to cover the motor plates.

Darkness of the diagrams in the manuals, I understand, we will work to make sure that the diagrams of multiple plastic parts aren't too dark in future manuals.

[mattr]

Chris, my criticisms of the kit really boil down to TD not calling it an R spec kit. Which it really is. Would have given RD the opportunity to sell a full fat kit at a 50 quid premium too! (I'd have bought one, as it is I'm buying a mixture of td, tresrey, cream and other Hopups) And the shock mounts. For an eternal tinkerer, the steel mounts are essential. And were included in the 410R.
Anything else is not even bad enough to be called a minor irritation.
Matt

Still not had any contract about my oversize gear diff tho.

[AfroP]

As a few people have already stated it seems more like an R spec kit than a full fat race machine.
Yes the car is "race" ready out the box but aren't all 2wd kits at the moment?
B4.1 FT worlds kit, Losi 22, SV2, whack in your electrics and away you go. So I dont see how or why this is being used as a "plus" or a feature of the 210

The Circlip in the diff is terrible, the manual does not say that circlip pliers are required and I for one don't know many people that have any, the margin for error with that 1 part if far too great as the manual does not specify that there are 2 different sides, only after very close inspection or viewing the online build guide does this become apparent.
a little foot note or warning in the manual would help a lot.

There is far too much platic in use around the kit
plastic hexes just screams cost cutting/cheapness as does the plastic shock stand off's and shock O-ring caps.

Steel turnbuckle's when every other competition 2wd kit has titanium, again points to lack of build quality and more cost cutting.

The manual is for me the the worst part of the entire kit, there are far too many mistakes. even the updated online manual has mistakes as it doesnt mention anything about attaching the rear bumper, in mid motor config.

lack of little touches which again points to cost cutting, manual does not mention that threadlock is a required item and other kits include threadlock but the 210 does not.

There are several "essential" upgrade parts that many 210 owners are buying and adding during the build as they have been labled as weak points on the car.

The circlip - schumacher and Xray both have an alternative that is cheaper than the Durango spare

Alloy wheel hexes - should be in the kit

Carbon steering link plate - as the kit supplied plastic is too weak

Slipper pads - replace with associated part as the kit pads are too thin

I do love my 210 and look forward to racing it and getting it to a more comfortable standard for me but on the points that have been mentioned here I cant feel that it could have and should have been better.

[Aran]

I love my DEX210 and yes there are a few areas I would like some alloy for some added strength, but ive not really broken much since release. Although im not very fast!

I think TD should improve on getting out upgrades before third party companies produce them. It is nice to have a few different brands producing products but TD could make more money here.

But then you have to acknowledge TD are releasing various different kits and having to develop those too, while having a change of ownership.

[TonyM]

Originally Posted by Chris Doughty

Tony, thanks for the feedback.

The body does not need to be used with the cowls, you can simply cut out your rear section for your motor plate.
The reason we went with the option for the cowls is that you can use a single painted body with ALL configurations, when you change to rear-motor (for example oOple race) you use the same body, just with the rear motor cowl, no hole in your body for where your motor plate would be...
also, no Ugly bulges to cover the motor plates.

I tried that but, in comparison to the other bodies. I found that without cutting out the section for the cowl the TD body was rubbing against the motor solder posts and was not fitting correctly. If the body incorporated the 'hump' as per the cowl then all would be OK.

[dpackster1980]

Originally Posted by Chris Doughty

Tony, thanks for the feedback.

I'll not reply to everything individually as I know I will end up spending all day on here playing forum tennis with everyone. but here are a few points.

the c-clip thing - the single biggest thing with this is over-crimping the clip - this is very bad. the orientation of the clip and small details like this can slightly help to compensate for this so our build guide and tech tip mentions this to ensure the best chance of it working well.
if you use the correct c-clip pliers and very very careful to not over-crimp the clip, It will work with the clip both ways round.

The body does not need to be used with the cowls, you can simply cut out your rear section for your motor plate.
The reason we went with the option for the cowls is that you can use a single painted body with ALL configurations, when you change to rear-motor (for example oOple race) you use the same body, just with the rear motor cowl, no hole in your body for where your motor plate would be...
also, no Ugly bulges to cover the motor plates.

Darkness of the diagrams in the manuals, I understand, we will work to make sure that the diagrams of multiple plastic parts aren't too dark in future manuals.

It's great that someone is wanting to know what think.

On the quality side of things I have the following issues:-

1) Rear wishbone slop, this would have been noticed by any TD driver when building the kit. This should've been rectified prior to release.
2) The HD ball cups still have slop in them like the old ones, still like to pop off when changing camber but don't seem to pop off as easily so still not great. I think its to do with them not wrapping round the ball enough.
3) I should've spoke to TD customer support but needed to get the car ready, I had an oversized idler gear shaft so the bearings were tight and are going to be a pain to get off.

Now the spec:-

1) Metal shock stand offs, these were on all TD cars including the R range so are and were expected.
2) Alloy shock caps, as per above and they are on the 410v3.
3) Gold shock shafts, they are on the 410 but not the 210. They've been introduced on one model and not the other.
4) Plastic Steering rack, fair enough if you have a servo saver. A pressed steel one would be better.
5) Plastic hexes, they would squash over a short period.

The above would make it the same spec as the 410 and people would be a lot happier.

[cigbunt]

I've only upgraded the

• rear shock tower to carbon
• changed the turnbuckles to losi
• b4 slippers

got the front carbon shock tower and steering link in my box not needed to change them and only thing I've broken is a rear wishbone, and i crash loads...
in regards to plastic hexes I've not squashed mine, am i doing something wrong?

210 has got so many upgrades i don't think there all "needed"

[dpackster1980]

Originally Posted by cigbunt

I've only upgraded the

• rear shock tower to carbon
• changed the turnbuckles to losi
• b4 slippers

got the front carbon shock tower and steering link in my box not needed to change them and only thing I've broken is a rear wishbone, and i crash loads...
in regards to plastic hexes I've not squashed mine, am i doing something wrong?

210 has got so many upgrades i don't think there all "needed"

All upgrades are not needed, but taking away what was standard on all previous models including R versions and replacing it with cheaper components especially on just a single model seems very odd. It makes the 210 not even a 210R.

[Origineelreclamebord]

I agree with you, I would rather have seen a DEX210 with the 410's high grade finish, and I would have paid the extra money, but I understand it's more profitable to attract a larger public with cars of a more down to earth finish. So for the money you pay for it, you really can't complain. A higher spec DEX210 would have cost pretty much the additional money you'll now spend on the upgraded parts seperately.

[dpackster1980]

Originally Posted by Origineelreclamebord

I agree with you, I would rather have seen a DEX210 with the 410's high grade finish, and I would have paid the extra money, but I understand it's more profitable to attract a larger public with cars of a more down to earth finish. So for the money you pay for it, you really can't complain. A higher spec DEX210 would have cost pretty much the additional money you'll now spend on the upgraded parts seperately.

It wouldn't have raised the price that much, lets say the mark up for buying the parts as an upgrade is 100%. The price of the kit is an extra £26 to put the alloy hexes in, the gold shock shafts, the metal shock mounts, pressed aluminium steering rack and the red alloy oring caps. That would put the retail price upto £225. It's still cheaper than the rest and it would appeal more so due to the extras.

Everyone is a winner, get the manual right as well and Durango would be laughing. It would also make the kit what it was meant to be a top spec race winner from the box.

[Si Coe]

Ah - but you forget that cost to Durango is not the same as cost to you.
The shock standoffs for example had to be specially made, whilst a screw and some nuts costs literally pence if you buy enough.
Likewise making the mould for the plastic o-ring caps may cost a fair amount, but once made the more caps you make the cheaper they effectively become. In contrast the machined caps essentially take the same effort regardless of how many you make.
The result is that with those parts I'm sure it would be a lot more than £20-30 more because they make it much harder for Durango to make, and less profitable.

Anyway - my view on the quality of the car is that it is at least as good as many other high end models. Maybe not as good as a 410 (I don't own one so can't say) but certainly as good as the AE, Losi and Yokomo cars I've worked on.
But then I bought mine because its a great 2wd car, not because I wanted a 'luxury' model. Admittedly I've blinged mine up since, because the car really does deserve the carbon and alloy, but it doesn't need it.