When is a 2wd not a 2wd

[Si Coe]

Originally Posted by paulc

Tend not to agree with this why is it at alot of meetings national / regional people are changing tyres every run especially the top lads i think it's more down to the type of astro rather than the tyre

As for tracks you can see why alot have clubs have gone for astroturf type tracks because of cost and easyer to maintain than a Dirt track especially with the british weather the way it is.

But at the end of the day fast drivers are always going to be fast and slow ones are going to be slow no matter what car they drive in my opinion 2wd should have the motor out the back no messing taking driveshafts out etc..

Fresh tyres have more grip than worn ones. When I say 'too much' I mean more than is entirely needed - the car could be drivable but not as fast with much less grippy tyres. Clearly with the rules as they stand drivers might as well use all the grip they can hence frequent replacement but I don't think this would be any better or worse with a harder compound less naturally grippy tyre. If anything you should have a few more runs before its performance notably drops off.

I'm not sure Schumacher need to have a problem with this - after all there is no reason the new tyre can't come from them. It just won't be in yellow.

[Richard Lowe]

Originally Posted by Si Coe

If anything you should have a few more runs before its performance notably drops off.

I'd say the opposite actually, if the tyre has much less grip to start with I'd be changing them at the first hint of the grip dropping off, people will keep putting new tyres on if they want/need to no matter what. A harder compound would make it easier on the wallets of the mid field runners though, those who are good enough to need decent tyres, but not the last little bit of grip the guys at the sharp end are looking for.

BB Greens would be fine everywhere as a control tyre IMO. They work in the wet and dry, and them not having the ultimate bite yellows do on dry astro would make everyone's car's easier to drive if more tracks start using the horrible Velcro like astro that's now down at Stotfold/Southport.

[Danny Harrison]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

I like the idea of tires with less Grip.
The Controlled tire thing is a bit crazy at present with all the different compounds etc! Lets have a different tire per track, And one that does not give too much grip so we get the same handling as driving on Dirt!!!
We could do handouts on the day like they do at Euros and Worlds. No-one has an advantage that way with the special or bad batches I have been hearing so much about recently. You could have 6 different manufacturers of tires each with a tire for each track, stops the monopoly there is at present and will make a more competitive market in the long run!!!

Wouldn't a control tyre actually create a monopoly? ie, everyone only buys that tyre and the other manufacturers dont sell hardly any?

I'd still go for that though. Hate having so many tires in my bag

[Danny Harrison]

Originally Posted by Richard Lowe

BB Greens would be fine everywhere as a control tyre IMO.

This is on the money. But they get killed off real fast on any high grip. My fronts look knackered after a 5 min run at southport. They will still work, but will now be terrible in the wet

I was thinking BB white, or even better schumacher blocks in yellow

[Neil Skull]

Originally Posted by Danny Harrison

Wouldn't a control tyre actually create a monopoly? ie, everyone only buys that tyre and the other manufacturers dont sell hardly any?

I'd still go for that though. Hate having so many tires in my bag

You misunderstood.
I wanted a different manufactures tire at each event.

[TARTMAN]

has this swayed from the original thread? YES

start a new tyre thread this was about 2wd/4wd etc....

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

You misunderstood.
I wanted a different manufactures tire at each event.

so you expect all racers to buy a new set of tyres for each track they visit? that may not work where they normally race?
what happens if all the tracks nominate the same tyre?

[Checa]

Originally Posted by blue_pinky

Interestingly, or not maybe, the micro section had a season where 4wd's with front drive shafts or front diff/front centre drive shaft removed became dominant in their 2wd class. The rules were subsequently written to state that only a stacked gearbox transmission was allowed in the 2wd class.

The argument here was that the disconnected front end of the transmission did give an advantage, and in fact I think at one point the rumours were that a one way diff was fitted backwards to give some sort of braking advantage or something (although I might have made that up completely from snippets of many random trackside chats that happened at that time about it) but you get the point!

I'm not sure that rule stills stands entirely, but for me there were/are other factors at play there....

The 2wd class in the micro section was, and still is, lacking in production race cars to fit into the class...so the rule book is being developed all the time in the hope it promotes the class and generates enough industry interest for manufacturers to take it up properly and create a fair class of 2wd micro racing...

At that point, the 4wd class had some reasonably well developed race cars competing...they maxed the cars out on wheelbase and track width, and were competing very closely as it was, and still is the main micro class.

The 2wd class at that time had no 2wd 'race' cars...only a few randomly built/converted 'toy' cars that happened to fit very loosely into the scrutineering box. Pretty sure Chunk (the first proper BRCA rule designed 2wd micro race car) didn't quite exist at that point.

Those 2wd 4wd cars with their developed design/proportions wiped the floor with the other 2wd's...so it was deemed unfair. The result was the Chunk coming to the front of it, and hopefully a more serious class that manufacturers can design properly for now...if they can find a market to sell them to!

It was me with the micro. I just tried it as i had a spare car and it was awesome but this p****d a few people off so for the start of the next season a thought i'm going to p**s you off even more (after they had slagged me off on another forum). So i tested at my local club first a one way diff in the front the wrong way round so i had 2WD but 4 wheel braking and it was great so i used this for the start of the season at Leighton Buzzard. I ONLY used this for rnd 1 as it was deemed illegal so i put the protest in. While this was being discussed by the committee i changed it back to just 2WD with no diff at all as i didnt want to loose any more rnds. Any way it was then found to be legal under their rules at the time and i went faster all day WITHOUT the one way diff even better i got my £20 back but they changed the rules for the following season even thou others did the same as me and got more people doing 2WD .

2WD says it all its 2 wheel drive as long as its only 2 wheel drive and meets all the rules its good for me

[Al3xis007]

Anyway, going back to the topic, as much as people don't like the fact people are running a 4wd car as a 2wd with the driveshafts out, it is legal.

All we can do is watch them lose traction when it rains

I'm sure if I thought my 2wd was crap I'd try messing with my 4wd too, but I definitely don't fancy buying new tyres after every 3 races

[rondoolaa]

i dont see anything wrong with it as long as the front driveshafts are removed so the front wheels run free just like a 2wd,

some people dont have a lot of money and this would give them the opportunity to race in a 2wd class without the driveshafts and a 4wd class with the driveshafts and only have to buy one set of spares as it would be for the same car,

when i only had the one car and hardly any money due to family commitments i used to run my zx5 in 2wd mode for a 2wd race and converted it back to 4wd for the 4wd race,

now i'm lucky enough to have plenty of cars so i can have different cars for both classes,

[FrogPrince82]

Originally Posted by Al3xis007

Anyway, going back to the topic, as much as people don't like the fact people are running a 4wd car as a 2wd with the driveshafts out, it is legal.

All we can do is watch them lose traction when it rains

This is why I approve of the idea that people should declare their chassis before qualifying rounds start.

This way, if it does rain or the track begins to lose grip, the people who have gambled on the 4wd/2wd hybrid will have paid the price for taking a risk. The people who have gambled on the dedicated 2wd car will have been rewarded.

This also goes visa versa for if the track grips in more during the day.

Otherwise, the people who have 2,3,4 different cars ready built with different chassis layouts (so the more cash/factory support) will always win out. They can drop in a new car layout as conditions develop, which isn't about talent or ability, it's more about spomeone's depth of equipment.

This way I think we would also then see a few "unknowns" appearing in the higher finals etc.

[Neil Skull]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

so you expect all racers to buy a new set of tyres for each track they visit? that may not work where they normally race?
what happens if all the tracks nominate the same tyre?

Hi Mark, I think its normal that any racer will buy a new set of tires for a national so I don't see any issue for cost. You also missed the point I was making!!! The tires are not supposed to work well!!! they are supposed to be lacking in Grip so we get a more realistic grip comparable with dirt tracks!!!!

Its just an idea I threw out to see what people would think of it. It means no rule changes or special 4wd/2wd cars would be needed. juts a change to the controlled tire rule.

[Big G]

Declaring 1 chassis for the event could be more favourable towards say, DEX210 drivers who have the option of going rear motor in very low grip situations. Whereas C4.1 drivers wouldn't have the option of bringing out the B4.1 (Stantz/Rich Lowe Oswestry 2012)

[johnboy]

Or an even better idea leave as is and just race. Lots of people here taking this too far it's model cars not F1 so what if people want to run a 4wd as a 2wd. I'm not losing any sleep about it.

[jasonrcb]

As more and more people are saying now,forget changing anything and just go out and race your toy cars,its mean't to be fun and rule after rule it certainly wont be.

As for the 1 chassis rule thats a waste of time,i race Hobao 2wd cars,i have 2 mid motor variations and a rear motor,if there was a 1 chassis rule mine is simple,undo 8 screws and remove the complete rear end including electrics,simply screw the rear motor back end on with electrics and i have rear motor on the 1 same chassis,so easy way round that and takes 10 minutes

[Briangb]

Originally Posted by johnboy

Or an even better idea leave as is and just race. Lots of people here taking this too far it's model cars not F1 so what if people want to run a 4wd as a 2wd. I'm not losing any sleep about it.

I think you are probably right. I must admit that I did think the XB4 and others were having a bit of an advantage, but at the end of the day if the rules allow it, then fine. All most of us want to do is to have a bit of fun.

[RogerM]

Is this still going on??????

Buy an RB6 guys and don't worry any more, see what the fastest car was on this "mega grip" layout? Bet the same car would have been pretty handy if it was soaking wet too

[Dudders]

Originally Posted by Briangb

I think you are probably right. I must admit that I did think the XB4 and others were having a bit of an advantage, but at the end of the day if the rules allow it, then fine. All most of us want to do is to have a bit of fun.

Bang on Brian, think there is a difference between the club types and the elite on this matter. Roll on Sunday I'll show you my 2wd Xb4

[jsw123]

Originally Posted by johnboy

Or an even better idea leave as is and just race. Lots of people here taking this too far it's model cars not F1 so what if people want to run a 4wd as a 2wd. I'm not losing any sleep about it.

Even though I originally voted 'no' having now followed this thread, for some time now, I've changed my mind!

I'm with this johnboy fellow who has hit the nail on the head for me!

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by FrogPrince82

This is why I approve of the idea that people should declare their chassis before qualifying rounds start.

This way, if it does rain or the track begins to lose grip, the people who have gambled on the 4wd/2wd hybrid will have paid the price for taking a risk. The people who have gambled on the dedicated 2wd car will have been rewarded.

This also goes visa versa for if the track grips in more during the day.

Otherwise, the people who have 2,3,4 different cars ready built with different chassis layouts (so the more cash/factory support) will always win out. They can drop in a new car layout as conditions develop, which isn't about talent or ability, it's more about spomeone's depth of equipment.

This way I think we would also then see a few "unknowns" appearing in the higher finals etc.

It also works the other way round - you declare a 2WD chassis, the grip is up and you don't make the higher final. This type of 'gambling' is exactly what makes people not bother to attend - that things totally outside their control have more influence on their results than a well set-up car driven to the best of their ability.

Originally Posted by Big G

Declaring 1 chassis for the event could be more favourable towards say, DEX210 drivers who have the option of going rear motor in very low grip situations. Whereas C4.1 drivers wouldn't have the option of bringing out the B4.1 (Stantz/Rich Lowe Oswestry 2012)

That's spot on, and exactly why a chassis rule is of no use whatsoever in these circumstances.

Originally Posted by johnboy

Or an even better idea leave as is and just race. Lots of people here taking this too far it's model cars not F1 so what if people want to run a 4wd as a 2wd. I'm not losing any sleep about it.

That's spot on, and exactly what you have now. As I understand it, over 100 people attend your Nationals. By my best estimate about 20 different people have posted no here, so do we assume the other 80 are where you are - just get on with it?!!