Anybody tried 35deg overall caster on the 22?

[markw]

Originally Posted by Delves

Yeah, the guard is cut to allow the cells to be moved back as far as possible as well allowing for more flex. I would either cut the guard or put spacer in at the top (where the guard fits onto the gearbox) so you dont twist/bend the motor plate.

Have u got any pic of this mod ?

Thanks ..

[Chris Elworthy]

Thanks for the advice Chris and gnarly.

I've taken a look at your setup from Maritime Chris and it's not all that far away from what I came up with for my previous round on the carpet/slippery floor track. I do however have a few questions if you don't mind?
You say on the setup that you use 55 pistons all around (I used 54 in the rear last time) with a rounded edge? Does this mean you screw the piston to the shock shaft upside down and what advantage does this give over the standard 55 piston?
Secondly, you are running the +.75 rear hexes, are these BRCA legal and how do they help the setup? A more planted rear end under power?
And finally, I find it curious you are using the 3deg caster blocks, I imagine this would make the car very aggressive and pointy or does the addition of the 4mm trailing axles tame the front end so much that a 3deg block is manageable?

I would consider myself a pretty quick driver but I lack consistency at times which damages my qualifying (especially during round by round qualifying) so I need a safe setup I would have thought.
I intend to run your setup (using either a 3.5deg or 4.5 deg HRC block as that's what I have) at the weekend and make tweaks from there that I will post on here.

Chris, outdoors I race mainly at Bury Metro which is a fairly flat astro track with some harsh bumps and off camber sections.

Thanks again for the help

Chris

[RDG 40]

Here you are bud, basically you just cut it so you only have top section, i mount my transponder there so i left a bit of meat to put velcro on

Hexes are still legal at that width there tight in a box but do go in

Im only a very steady driver but the 3 wasnt too agressive, i had 0 on to start and it just made it a bit too litle steering in tight the 3 just make it perfect rather than ok, and off straights or sweepers it just felt smoother, with 0 it wanted to push weirdly so you was bit on off to balance it. I was running 4mm's

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Hi Chris,
The term 'rounded pistons' refer to something we've been doing to the standard pistons for a while now.
If you look closely at a standard piston, the edge where the sidewall meets the upper and lower surfaces is square - i.e there is no radius.

What we've been doing is to introduce a radius on BOTH the upper and lower surfaces to round them in this zone. This has been done ever so technically with an old shock shaft, a dremel and a piece of 600grit wet and dry paper.

From our testing, we believe this makes the shock better at absorbing all the little bumps and ruts that characterise many of our UK style circuits. The down side is that it will rob you of some large jump landing prowess.

Essentially, it's the same as thinking about the old AE square edge pistons on their B4 and the old round edge pistons on the Losi shocks. The Losi ones were always great at small bump performance whilst the AE ones had better big jump landing performance.

What we've done is to introduce a radius to improve the high frequency, small amplitude reaction to make them a bit faster reacting - a bit like taper pistons but the compression and rebound rates stay the same.

In the early days, we were using Nick Gurnell's machined and tapered pistons and the quality of his work is awesome - but we made a choice to stick with the stock kit pistons and to try to make them work so that we could help TLR22 owners who maybe didn't have the option to try's Nick's offerings.

The 55 size hole will give you more pack than the 54s - the 54's can slap through a jump landing and cause the car to double bounce or give an uncontrolled landing. As Chris has said, playing with pistons is pretty much what we do to alter the car's characteristics from one track to another now that we're happy with our own individual set ups

As for the 3 deg Caster, I think you're spot on - the 4mm trailing axle will offset some of the initial aggression from the caster block. As I've said myself, I've not yet found them to be to my liking but there's little denying that Chris has found a set up that's given him a lot more pace recently and he's now regularly too far in front of me.

Ref the +0.75mm hexes - yup, they can be used and still have the car within the BRCA box. Chris ran them pretty much throughout the national season with Schumacher and Ballistic tyres and his car fitted into the BRCA box without any problems - with 4 deg rear toe.

HTH

[Frecklychimp]

+1.5mm rear hexes will fit in BRCA box with 4 deg, although snug with some tyres!

The rounded piston team trick works really well, haven't tried them in buggy yet but in 22SCT it transformed bump handling.

Would it not be an idea to cut motor guard so the bottom edge sits on top of lipos?

i know this may cause some pressure on saddles, but will stop chassis tweaking when landing from big air or being hit from behind with another car?

obviously this allows rear to flex and moves some weight back which improves traction on slippier tracks... but i don't like the idea of car flexing front to back, especially not without using a torque wrench to fit screws in everything attached to chassis!

[Frecklychimp]

Originally Posted by RDG 40

Here you are bud, basically you just cut it so you only have top section, i mount my transponder there so i left a bit of meat to put velcro on

Hexes are still legal at that width there tight in a box but do go in

Im only a very steady driver but the 3 wasnt too agressive, i had 0 on to start and it just made it a bit too litle steering in tight the 3 just make it perfect rather than ok, and off straights or sweepers it just felt smoother, with 0 it wanted to push weirdly so you was bit on off to balance it. I was running 4mm's

Have you played with front camber with different blocks Russell?

the difference between 0deg and -1deg is massive between under and oversteer with some set ups.

worth playing with at worksop since front tyre is control and surface is predictable on the flat bits.

[Chris Elworthy]

Frecklychimp: just on what you said in your last post can you give me a little explanation into how the camber effects under/oversteer? Would more front camber make the car more aggressive or less?

Thanks for the advice RE: the pistons, it makes logical sense now it's been explained. I shall probably just leave them standard for now as the tracks I'm running on through the winter are fairly flat and I don't know if I trust myself hacking away at them with a dremel as yet.
As I said in a previous post in response to Delves' setup I have both the 3.5 and 4.5 HRC toe blocks where Chris runs the 4deg. Of the two I have which one would you suggest starting with on the carpet/slippy floor track?
I forgot to mention earlier that my car is fitted with the Cream RC weight that replaces the front wishbone block. Due to this extra weight would you feel it wise for me to keep the motor guard in place as I, same as Frecklychimp am concerned that it may induce too much flex front to back. A friend of mine has been using a side by side saddle mod for his 22 which removes this guard and replaces it with a turnbuckle that stretches from the motor plate to a carbon batter retainer he's made over the lipo's. He's has so much trouble with it that he's gone back to the standard config. I feel the problem has been despite the rigidity the turnbuckle has added the chassis still flexes visibly front to back causing an aggressive weight transfer making the car push horribly on power and turn wildly off power despite what changes he has made.
I've run my 22 as god intended it and like the performance but there's always more you can do......


Chris

[Delves]

Originally Posted by Frecklychimp

+1.5mm rear hexes will fit in BRCA box with 4 deg, although snug with some tyres!

The rounded piston team trick works really well, haven't tried them in buggy yet but in 22SCT it transformed bump handling.

Would it not be an idea to cut motor guard so the bottom edge sits on top of lipos?

i know this may cause some pressure on saddles, but will stop chassis tweaking when landing from big air or being hit from behind with another car?

obviously this allows rear to flex and moves some weight back which improves traction on slippier tracks... but i don't like the idea of car flexing front to back, especially not without using a torque wrench to fit screws in everything attached to chassis!

With regards to the motor guard, this is exactly what I do Sorry I did not explain this more clearly earlier on.

[Delves]

Originally Posted by Chris Elworthy

Frecklychimp: just on what you said in your last post can you give me a little explanation into how the camber effects under/oversteer? Would more front camber make the car more aggressive or less?

Thanks for the advice RE: the pistons, it makes logical sense now it's been explained. I shall probably just leave them standard for now as the tracks I'm running on through the winter are fairly flat and I don't know if I trust myself hacking away at them with a dremel as yet.
As I said in a previous post in response to Delves' setup I have both the 3.5 and 4.5 HRC toe blocks where Chris runs the 4deg. Of the two I have which one would you suggest starting with on the carpet/slippy floor track?
I forgot to mention earlier that my car is fitted with the Cream RC weight that replaces the front wishbone block. Due to this extra weight would you feel it wise for me to keep the motor guard in place as I, same as Frecklychimp am concerned that it may induce too much flex front to back. A friend of mine has been using a side by side saddle mod for his 22 which removes this guard and replaces it with a turnbuckle that stretches from the motor plate to a carbon batter retainer he's made over the lipo's. He's has so much trouble with it that he's gone back to the standard config. I feel the problem has been despite the rigidity the turnbuckle has added the chassis still flexes visibly front to back causing an aggressive weight transfer making the car push horribly on power and turn wildly off power despite what changes he has made.
I've run my 22 as god intended it and like the performance but there's always more you can do......


Chris

Hi, it all depends on your driving preferance to be honest. If you like a car that is 'safe' then I would go with the 4.5HRC. The 3.5HRC will pivot harder in the turn which might be good if you have a track with lots of hairpins.

HTH

[Frecklychimp]

I'm going to have to apologise for not being able to elaborate..

I'm going through the theory but unfortunately it works different ways and can easily be back to front depending on the usual suspects of front grip, tyre shape/profile, toe, roll centre, ackermann, castor, weight etc etc!!!!

so what result i got will differ completely to another set up!

It's a setting i played with on high grip carpet last year and was amazed at the difference.

my set up was completely different to Delves... but was a base set up i found to be good everywhere as a starter... so i can't comment on how it will work with this set up.

my advice... set front at zero and try it... then try again with -1, note effects and see if it suits you.

My point to Russell is the same as Gnarly mentioned earlier... if you change a component then don't forget to go through the basic adjustments again before writing it off or sticking with it... especially when the 22 is so reactive.

you can waste a lot of time changing parts or changing to a completely different set up... when working through the adjustment variables and understanding what the effect is with your driving style can bring same or better results.

sometimes driving round a problem is easier than chasing someone elses results!

[Frecklychimp]

Originally Posted by Delves

With regards to the motor guard, this is exactly what I do Sorry I did not explain this more clearly earlier on.

I thought so dude... allowing too much forward/rear flex is going to make for a pretty unpredictable car... and a tweaked chassis i reckon!

With Carbon it's a different story... but aluminium has a more limited tolerance.

I bent a motor guard top screw along the way in action with standard build... so this alerted me to the flex/pressures involved in that area of the car.... was a bugger to get it out through gearbox casing too!

[RDG 40]

I must say ive changed both cars to bleeder caps and there totally

Seem quite a bit softer and a better feel, more even feel through compression

[RDG 40]

Originally Posted by Gnarly Old Dog

Running in the wet shouldn't be too much of a problem - use the Delves set up as your basis and look to increase the front Caster by using a 10 deg block. You will have to moderate the throttle a bit more but the car will still retain its balance and composure.

I'd also consider shortening your links by moving the inboard locations out to the hole number 2 on both front and rear. This change combined with the caster block change is likely to be enough to start with

Ran at worksop last weekend set up worked really well as delves set mentioned

As worksop is mainly lower grip jus with odd tiny bit of carpet, i did move all links inboard shorter as mentioned to minic wet conditions

It seemed to b a bit more grip slightly, what wud changing the caster from 3 block to 5 or 10 do extra? As i might try it next time

Russ

[Robby]

Originally Posted by RDG 40

Ran at worksop last weekend set up worked really well as delves set mentioned

As worksop is mainly lower grip jus with odd tiny bit of carpet, i did move all links inboard shorter as mentioned to minic wet conditions

It seemed to b a bit more grip slightly, what wud changing the caster from 3 block to 5 or 10 do extra? As i might try it next time

Russ

The more castor you run, the less low speed steering you'll have.

[paul whittock]

How do you get the setup sheet downloaded ?

done