Ideal Track Size.

[Byse]

Im looking into investing some time & money into some land,

I was planning to offer a Outdoor & Indoor circuit with indoor being touring.
How many Square Meters should i be looking for?

If it all gose well and i get some sponsors and alot of interest from clubs wanting to use the facility i would look into laying a Tarmac Touring circuit for Touring

That way i can offer Indoor and Outdoor for TC & Outdoor for buggys on mud .


Any ideas?

[s22jgs]

I'd say you want roughly 5000sqft to 8000sqft for an indoor circuit.

Outdoor much the same

You will also require the same again for pitting area

[Byse]

So looking at around 15,000Sqft? Hmmm abit more than expected

[s22jgs]

Some tracks are much smaller. Some are much bigger lol herts is so big you can barely see the back of it when driving.

[s22jgs]

But yeh. If I was looking to build a track I'd say 15000 would be about ideal

[Byse]

Hmm , 2.4 Acres is like £20,000 , hmm maybe not this year then lol

[s22jgs]

I would guess ure better off finding some unused land and do a deal with the owner at a reduced rate of rent

[Col]

Before buying anything check with the local council about change of usage regulations.

[Frecklychimp]

IMHO as a club organiser... it's seriously not a sound investment unless it's shared with another non related profitable type of business and done as a hobby by a serious enthusiast with lots of time on their hands and not scared of some hard graft.

The following is not bitter or twisted, but trying to give you food for thought.

We've looked into doing this as we have a good sized plot of land, and more available with more £££, that would take the investment and is ripe for development in the same way, pretty much in the middle of country on the side of the A1 away from any Residential areas and next to a very rapidly growing popular MX facility owned by Chris 'Stalker' Walker (BSB superstar!)

tbh i don't know where to start with the harsh truths and there are sadly too many to mention...

There is no money in running a venue for this hobby, by no money i mean you will not realistically make a minimum wage living from it considering the hours you would have to work/pay someone to work so that it would be open daily and hopefully full of customers.

A good lesson is the train wreck that happened with Moto Arena... everything under one roof/venue/site... thousands an thousands spent, lasted a matter of months and was in recievership with scary debts within that time... based at Silverstone Circuit... the flagship venue for UK Motorsport!

The size of area needed is mammoth as mentioned and the initial outlay will be huge, as soon as you put a building on it you will be looking at paying horrendous business/council rates of some kind (plusplannig costs etc etc to get to that stage), add to that the need for power and everything that comes with it/needs connecting to it, running water, toilets, food provision, health and safety red tape you wouldn't believe, staff (unless you have lots of hands and can survive existing in the same building/venue permanently)

I you opened 7 days a week and pulled in say a very optimistic 60 drivers a day at £10 a head... you will not cover it, even if its the perfect venue.

Racers like to travel around different venues doing different championships and classes, so wouldn't be a regular source of income, you would have regulars but the novelty would fade as trends change with this hobby... you would probably be very popular for a few months whilst people come to try what you have built and if its good they will come and race there fairly regular, but its a hard thing to predict cos it hasn't happened and worked so far in UK.

getting sponsorship of related companies is something that you will struggle with too, as i've said there is not massive money in the hobby, we are a minority sport really and specialist but very broad with all the different classes... plus anyone that was involved with Moto Arena will have had their fingers burnt... don't get me wrong, the majority of the big distributors are very generous and keen to sponsor events and championships, will even donate very nice kit as prizes etc, but a couple of hundred quids worth of goodies is a small hit compared to the thousands you would need from them, plus they would rightfully want exclusivity for larger sums of investment, which would mean you get a lot less to work with.

I'm sure all of the organisers at big clubs, John at Ardent, James at RHR and some of the distributors would back this post up, knowing how much work it takes and how costs spiral by just building the venue and tracks, let alone maintaining them/improving them to keep interest!

I'm not even going into the work required, just running a medium size venue with 2 tracks for electric and nitro offroad classes is a full time unpaid job, trust me... i do it for the love of the hobby but it does wear thin sometimes!

If corporate angle is being considered (team building, hire cars etc etc) then this hobby is also very hard to crossover, its not as accessible as karting or paintballing, it's tricky and takes lots of time and practice to be any good at it which means it doesn't have the grab factor once people try it... people love watching the little cars fly around a track... but trying to do the same with no experience only ends up with smashed cars and embarressed customers, beaten by a toy!

The big question to ask yourself.... if its a 100% good idea, why has it not been done already?

it would be awesome and inspirational to see it done and be a success, will be a great step for the hobby in this country, i'm just being honest and straight with you matey.. we have the same dream... just we've already sat in the bank managers office and had the reality check!

A bank/investor will possibly be keen to throw you money if you owned the land... reason being they are thinking of £££'s of development potential from your prime land if/when it goes belly up.

If you sit and work out what just the timing equipment, track markings and pitting facilities would cost you will get a scare, plus all the big kit or landscaping an outdoor track... you mentioned dirt... well there is another full time job keeping that in a useable condition... RHR have (rumoured) just spent an lot of money building RHR Dirt, which uses specially formulated clay to make the track worth racing on and attract the racers in.

anyways, best of luck whatever you choose to do, sorry for the essay, unfortunately there is loads more on top of the above, but you get the picture! you are more than welcome to chat to me about what has been said... it's all straight up and would sooner save you hassle and expense than hear of another Moto Arena, which did cast a black cloud over the hobby for a while!

Mark

[James]

Great post, 100% bang on in my opinion!

[Byse]

Wow . that took me a while to read! How ever i thank you for your input and maybe i was being abit optimistic ?

No offence taken as non was intended in anyway But looking and reading at your thread im struggling to find why i missed so much

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by Frecklychimp

The big question to ask yourself.... if its a 100% good idea, why has it not been done already? Mark

That's the killer line.

Even in America, where land is plentiful and costs of running a business are low, model shops with tracks come and go. You can build it, but the record is that they don't always come. Ardent and RHR are two that buck the trend, mainly because they are the only ones in the market and they are run by people dedicated to keeping them going who have another job that pays the bills.

Keeping the existing ones going is hard enough, opening another one will help kill off an existing one. If you want to help get a good venue, then go to a local one that needs help and offer your time and money to them. Take note of the comments here and help keep the existing ones going with your time and enthusiasm. HTH

[Frecklychimp]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

That's the killer line.

Even in America, where land is plentiful and costs of running a business are low, model shops with tracks come and go. You can build it, but the record is that they don't always come. Ardent and RHR are two that buck the trend, mainly because they are the only ones in the market and they are run by people dedicated to keeping them going who have another job that pays the bills.

Keeping the existing ones going is hard enough, opening another one will help kill off an existing one. If you want to help get a good venue, then go to a local one that needs help and offer your time and money to them. Take note of the comments here and help keep the existing ones going with your time and enthusiasm. HTH

Thats one point i didn't get to... This sport is club based, very social and you were hoping that clubs would come to you to use your facility on a rental basis i guess...

Good Clubs spend years building up reputations, a family like membership base, thousands of pounds and hours into building the venues they already use and have, all on a voluntary basis by keen enthusiasts of the hobby... there is little chance they will walk away from that if established, even if your venue was better than the best.

I can say all this through years in the hobby as a racer and always being involved in helping with the unseen work behind scenes... it's hard work, even just running offroad classes at club level with hosting a couple of BRCA Regional championship meetings in a year... to try and cater for on road classes too is a big big challenge, you would really need to know your stuff...

if its to be done as a business then you will also not get the support like clubs do as people will need paying for their time.

I i could make a living doing what you proposed i would snap up he opportunity, love the hobby and the friends and social side involved, enjoy the work building tracks and networking... but its not viable, even with a massive injection of capital to get it started, it would not last unfortunately... clubs come and go, organisers and commitees change within those clubs but its the ones that have been around for many years, host a few big meetings a year or huge series that will always be around... and i can guarantee that they only make enough to keep the club going and have enough to survive when holiday season hits or xmas time and you lose half you regulars for a few weeks, or the members are out at other events.

there are still more factors matey.

Advice.. if you are keen to build a track/venue and run such a thing and in an area with a thriving off-road region, go see the clubs in the area, talk to organisers, find out if there is room for another track/venue/club (what nights are free to hold meetings in the week? what are the sundays available in the local calendar? etc) propose your venue and guage interest... RENT the land for a years lease and try to get a decent grass track built, organise meetings and advertise well and see where it goes.

Investing in on-road by building a tarmac track will put the budget through the roof, plus as far as i've heard on-road is a bit stale atm, 1/10th electric off-road is definitely building in popularity again (this hobby has rotating phases like this between the bigger classes, one slows and the others grow)

Or as said above just get involved in the local clubs and see how it really works, if you have got the cash to buy land, do so and get planning permission for shops or houses... then spend your earnings on lots of shiny r/c cars and fancy kit and go race where others put in the hard graft!

if you ever spot the opportunity to do this as a business that is viable, give me a shout... i'd consider a job doing it!

I say this often as a joke... if our ofroad club drops of then its being closed, holes drilled in astro with some flags and i'll turn it into a crazy golf course... driving range off the tops of the rostrums above

The scary thing is that it would probably be highly more financially viable to do that and have a crazy golf course on side of A1 than ever make a living from this hobby!

Mark.

[James]

Thats a good point actually - perhaps in your situation working with an existing club to improve their facilities could be a goer.
Regarding RHR, the reason it is viable and pays for itself and we can continue to gradually expand and improve the place is because its a partnership with shared resources and the people involved are (hopefully!) in the know and in the thick of the action so to speak. To think about what we have now at RHR & RHRD starting from scratch with no land, machinery would never be financially viable, its only worked because one party had the land (with planning permission), machinery, facilities (ie toilets, power, water, drains-you gotta think of these things! etc) and some capital, another party (York Off-Road Car Club) has the expensive timing gear, PA system, infrastructure and following and club funds, and of course the people and team- without which there would be no 'proper' venue at all!!! (love you guys ) . Not to mention the partnership with oOple for the oOple race, support from Proline for our new dirt track, development test days with manufacturers, these all add together to make it workable, another couple of years and the place will be approaching world class (we hope!), its only taken 20 years on and off to get there.

[Frecklychimp]

Have you tried the grip levels with a golf ball and a putter on the new clay James?

Any good at building windmills?

just thinking if it all goes Pete Tong with 10th offroad in the not so distant future we could join forces and start a chain of A1 corridor based crazy golf courses

The point you made was interesting too... i can remember racing at Blythe Regionals 15+ years ago, completely different crew running it back then heard it died off to wasteland pretty much and was resurrected by the current fresh crew a few years back....

There was a smallish club in Grantham that died 10 years back, was mixed class, went to offroad, changed to tourers all through r/c trends then closed... it's the same crew behind A1 Racing Club pretty much,

This pattern has followed many existing clubs, but you can't shut a business for a couple of years whilst the fashions change.

R/C racing will hit a drop at some point, hopefully many years from now... kids from the xbox generation haven't come through the hobby in the same numbers as in the past, so neither will their kids and so on.

Most racers i know from years back have had a massive break whilst their families grow up and then they bring their youngsters into it.

So if you do intend to get involved in the club organising side of the hobby... make an effort to push the hobby to the younger generations, we are working on it with beginners nights, ads in local press and flyers to schools etc it is working and we have a regular following as most parents don't want kids sat on backside getting fat in front of xbox etc.. but also don't dare let them play around in streets... which is where a friendly sociable club/hobby can be aimed, its also why we push SCT's so much... perfect beginners cars into offroad racing.

[Byse]

Thanks for all the advice

Maybe the euromillions will come in tonight and i wont have to worry about the money side

[Big G]

I was hoping to rent a small acre (as appose to a large acre) off a local farmer for say £1000/year, maybe I'm dreaming with the figures there...

Our club has the members and funds in the bank to make that happen. Of course after speaking with James I have a lot of pointers, i.e., planning permission!

The Track would hopefully be able to host a regional or MAM event as well as our Tuesday night weekly club meetings. Defo astro turf as mowing is a pain in the arse right now lol.

[jimbot]

If anyone would like advice on how to do this and make it a success is 100% about it then PM me.
There is a lot of red tape but it can be done!
Just one fact you cannot run as non-profit making it will cost you more! If you change the use of land the VGA will rate it (example horse jumps in a field need planning if there for more than 12 months!).
Once the land has been re rated and planning is given and you have paid the rate (not the rateable value) it will be hard for anyone to remove you from the land.
If you can find a bit of land inside a public park and the council are behind you, you can run a club without rates and minimal rent (very hard to get access for car parking you may pay to park on site).
You will need support from the racers and a group of 3~6 to take it on IMO.
There are a lot of farmers who need income and have the machines to build tracks onsite but they will not want the council/planers coming to there sites you will need to sort this for them.
To start any track project you will need £5k~£10 min you need to work out how to make it pay 40+ racers per meeting every 3rd week would give you income timming gear 3K ! transpunders £120 each for hand outs so the cost of track use + racing will make or break you.
Do your sums first and get all your cost together before you start.
Good luck
Jim

[tnx king]

This was us 6 years ago no timing gear no rostrum no perminent track , just myself and a few dedicated people to set up every tuesday and some sundays// http://www.a1racingclub.com/gallery/...-rutland-arms/

this was last year new members new ideas and visions (frecklychimp)
http://www.a1racingclub.com/gallery/...ack-opening/4/

It doesnt have to be big, it doesnt have to be the dogs bollocks, all you need is enough drivers to cover rent, Then look at getting local papers involved, schools ect... The local racers are your bread and butter, they are what you need to cover your rent every week!!

The bigger stuff will come with the right focus and dedication. plus you will very supprised at what drivers members do as day jobs, and what can be blagged,for f.o.c i still can not believe what we got to this day

have fun with your quest !!

[Frecklychimp]

£1000 a year for an acre is not bad at all, we have a bit more than that and pay just less than double... it's viable if you can get say at least 30 drivers at a meeting once a week at £5 a head and a Regional will bring you from £500 to £1000 depending how busy your region is.

The big factor... outdoor racing can only sensibly take place for 6mths of the year and its weather that will always determine how many meetings you can get in within this time

for us as a club we are obviously still paying rent throughout the winter on the outdoor venue which is hardly used from end of September/beginning October until March so it makes winter racing more expensive as hosts when renting a second venue to do this... we have tried outdoor winter Sunday series but tbh it's always a big gamble with weather and temperatures particularly... racing isn't fun when your thumbs and feet are frozen stiff or soaked to the bone (as much as i prefer wet racing!)

You are always spending to run the venue and it always needs some sort of maintainence... building different track layouts is vitally important to keep the racers on their toes and give them different challenges too

Astro you will get for free if you shop around, we have contacts if needed... it costs around £150 per tonne minimum to dispose of used astro and you don't get many rolls to the tonne when its full of sand, worse if wet!

You do have to shop around for astro... far too many variations of pile, colour, weave for different sports its used for etc... you may find you have to pay a gesture towards fuel costs with haulage of it... but its normally available by a very big lorry load, which you will probably find would cover enough area to build 3 1/8th nitro sized tracks!

As for planning, we were very lucky... our landlord is a gentleman farmer and also a local councillor, as there was already planning for the MX track on same site we had no issues as it was all in place.... even noise permissions for running nitro cars (they are louder than a 2 stroke race MX bike surprisingly... which is why they should be banned !)

If planning a track venture... factor in a very sensible amount of car parking/pitting and factor in costs of making it a decent surface... racers take a huge space up with car/van loads of kit, tents/gazebos etc when you try and work out space for say a 120 driver meeting it soon gets swallowed up... the surface is important as its more user friendly to not get covered in mud, especially some of the more fashionable younger racers with their trendy designer clobber!

If it is to be built on a field... drainage is a massive consideration... if you spend a good few thousand building a lovely track to ind it floods when it drizzles then you'll only have to rip it up again to sort drainage and build land up so it drains.... something A1 Racing Club had to do with 100's of tonnes of topsoil to raise levels of track as land is heavy grey clay and was good for making lakes when it rained.

Also, heavy traffic from racers and their heavy vans/cars can soon wear/damage the land/pitting area rendering it useless when wet, especially if your venue is busy... again another very costly affair to fix... if you do manage to get lots and lots of Astro then this could make a good surface for pitting/car parking but you still need a sensible base underneath for drainage and heavy vehicles.

A rostrum can be a very expensive affair too, it cost us over £1k last year to build a shipping container/scaffold type rostrum with steps and we already had container on site for storage! it was still cheap really as its rock solid an safe (something else that will cost you thousands when the health and safety comes into it... particularly if building tracks on council property with any sort of public access)

Don't forget your track markings, can cost silly amounts as the cheaper hoses/pipes etc tend to go fragile with UV and weather, plus consider how tracks will be laid and the speed of laying them... labour intensive track changes soon wear thin when it takes most of a day for small gang to do it.

Toilets cost us a fair chunk each year, we have no running water so use portaloos, the club owns the loos but has to pay to get them emptied and that is quite often if running busy meetings!

We don't have mains power so have to use generators to power race control and our flood lighting we installed last winter (so you can race a bit longer when the nights draw in at end of summer... plus potential for a 24hr endurance offroad meeting in pipeline )
Fuel costs for running these changes daily atm and intial purchase of gennys!

A massive issue if starting a club from scratch these days... Timing Kit/Transponders, can be very costly and pretty hard to find these days as most established clubs are on the hunt for good back up sets as they can't be bought new and don't last forever, even though they can repaired or have batteries replaced they can die eventually ... timing software is another purchase that costs a club too. Computer, PA system, cabling, printer, ink, paper, race numbers, websites, trophies, fluro bibs, safety fencing etc etc... all costs of running decent meetings to recognised standards.

Most important of all... work in harmony with your existing local clubs, don't treat them as competition, chat to them regarding dates of meetings and consider that their members can also be your members and vice versa if you don't clash meetings... if you network together and help each other out it becomes great if you have a crisis and need to borrow timing kit, run out of race numbers at last minute or something required to run a meeting... its all about back scratching and learning from each other.

The clubs, organisers and racers in Mid-East Region have all been fantastic with us and very supportive in getting us established with racing 1/10th electric classes and guiding us through our first year with Regionals last year, all run by very nice helpful people and all approachable and offer help and experienced advice without begging or stressing! (so thanks guys if you are reading this, you are all stars )

At the end of the day a lot of us club organisers are also keen racers, so will encourage new tracks and help spread word as we ourselves like to go to new venues to race (when we race elsewhere it is our time off from running meetings/working so can just play with cars whilst someone else has to work!)