Newcastle R.C. Racers @ TyneMet

[Mike West]

I hope the newer drivers aren't taken this the wrong way. The racing standard is not the issue, however a couple of occasions last night it was hard work for all too let through or get past each other. Maybe the track layout was too blame as previous weeks i don't think it has been as tough.

If we had another couple of drivers there it would have solved this, as we would have had split the heat. However everybody looses time when you tangle up. The easiest way around this is to be a little more patient passing and the lapped car getting back on the throttle (note to all not just new members).

What we need is a few more existing members turning up a little more often (i know i need to make more effort as well) an a couple of new faces in the buggy heat and not just touring cars.

Maybe an idea for the more experienced drivers to try and help the newer drivers with a few tips as long as they promise in a couple of months time not to beat us.

[hazzelarator]

How about whichever group has more cars gets the split? Seems fair to me, as you said there was only 1 car difference last night so wont be long till the split is the other way?

Personally I enjoy the reverse grids as if you have had a stinking qualifier then your still not out of the running and it also makes it a good action packed final. Maybe if you don't want to start pole then you can always opt to start at the back?

I know when I stopped racing at the start of summer there was talk of creating a 'set' of tracks? Did anyone design a few different layouts of track? I'l make some if not? What about putting two ppl in charge of track builds and they change every 2nd week? Last night took ages to get under way with everyone adding different bits to the track in different places and the result was alot of hairpins and short straights. Perhaps some time could be saved here and on pack up?

Just my two penneth

[lazysurfer]

Agree with most of the posts about heats. If there's more buggys than TC then the buggys would be split. If both classes reach 10 both will be split. I don't like running heats of 4 or less as once someone drops out there's not really much of a race left and you can spend 5 mins driving round without passing or being passed. Gonna have to have 4 heats soon anyway I reckon with increasing buggy numbers. And no it's generally not the novice drivers who are difficult to lap more the mid abilities! Maybe when the numbers are like last night split one class for heats and the other for finals? Also maybe only do reverse grid for split finals where ability will be more evenly matched? Generally it seems that most don't want to drop a round until numbers dictate we have to run 4 heats tho which I'm working on max 9 cars before splitting to 2 5s when we get 10. Until there's 10 of each we split the busiest class so long as we have min 4 max 9 in a heat. For discussion obviously but that's my suggestion

[angieamyabbie]

i dont know what everyone else thinks but would it be possible to go to a staggered start as their always seems to be a pile up on the first corner
which is easily avoided by staggering the start
anybody else have views on this topic

[gar]

Originally Posted by angieamyabbie

i dont know what everyone else thinks but would it be possible to go to a staggered start as their always seems to be a pile up on the first corner
which is easily avoided by staggering the start
anybody else have views on this topic

Well it work,s well at the Barley Mow it,s a from me

Gary

[FastWheels]

Originally Posted by Ray Mac

Jim's suggestion of alternating weeks for buggies and tc's splitting seems to be a decent option. It wouldn't hurt to try it for a couple of weeks or more. What does the rest of the gang think??

Good to see a non partisan egalitarian view, Bravo Ray Mac

[FastWheels]

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

running five races for 3 heats is pretty hectic.

I knew I wasn't alone

[FastWheels]

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

no matter what your experience - heats are sorted on driving ability so you'll always have someone of a similar pace to race against.

Hey Mark have you been in politics (car sales)

[FastWheels]

Originally Posted by angieamyabbie

i dont know what everyone else thinks but would it be possible to go to a staggered start as their always seems to be a pile up on the first corner
which is easily avoided by staggering the start
anybody else have views on this topic

Definitely worth a try to give a clean getaway and let some drivers settle a little before crashing!

[FastWheels]

Originally Posted by hazzelarator

How about whichever group has more cars gets the split? Seems fair to me, as you said there was only 1 car difference last night so wont be long till the split is the other way?

Only historically the TCs have constant swell of numbers greater than the Buggies so following on with the statistics they would only have the split on a rare occasion .

Originally Posted by hazzelarator

Personally I enjoy the reverse grids as if you have had a stinking qualifier then your still not out of the running and it also makes it a good action packed final. Maybe if you don't want to start pole then you can always opt to start at the back?

It's always an incentive to strive for improvement and get that reward of a better start in order to try to achieve pole, but each to their preference.

Originally Posted by hazzelarator

I know when I stopped racing at the start of summer there was talk of creating a 'set' of tracks? Did anyone design a few different layouts of track? I'l make some if not? What about putting two ppl in charge of track builds and they change every 2nd week? Last night took ages to get under way with everyone adding different bits to the track in different places and the result was alot of hairpins and short straights. Perhaps some time could be saved here and on pack up?

This is a good idea for the track design to be printed to scale on A3 or A2 paper, but may be better extending the 2 week build to 4 week rotation, that way a little more familiarity of build skill should shave some time from the build, the plans would give further direction to those without the vision of smart design (me for 1) We run this system at the Barley Mow and it has proved successful over quite some time now, but a collective build with everyone who is interested adding their slant motivates the individual to involvement.

Just my two penneth [/QUOTE]

[FastWheels]

Originally Posted by Mike West

I hope the newer drivers aren't taken this the wrong way.

We haven't Mike

Originally Posted by Mike West

The racing standard is not the issue, however a couple of occasions last night it was hard work for all too let through or get past each other. Maybe the track layout was too blame as previous weeks i don't think it has been as tough.

I think the diverse range of skills was the major element in the Buggy heat the split was 3 fast - 3 mid range - 2 new novices, the reason this mix causes problems is the fast guys want to compete at full blast (naturally) then the mid range drivers with slightly less talent/skill also blasting through they then tangle with the novices who through lack of experience drive erratically, of course this leads to unusual manoeuvres then breakages occur, those new to the sport feel a sense of overwhelming frustration as they are constantly harrased by a continual stream of fast cars launching past and numerous collisions/nudges occurring. Never had a problem with the track (driving skills maybe, but track no)

Originally Posted by Mike West

If we had another couple of drivers there it would have solved this, as we would have had split the heat. However everybody looses time when you tangle up. The easiest way around this is to be a little more patient passing and the lapped car getting back on the throttle (note to all not just new members).

I don't see any reason why there has to be a certain number before a heat split in implemented, last night may have been better as a 6 & 2 for the buggies as it would have allowed young Ellis & beasty Boys Motorsport the opportunity to drive a clear track and have a flowing race rather than the stuttered event they had to face and give rise to improving their basic skills

Originally Posted by Mike West

What we need is a few more existing members turning up a little more often (i know i need to make more effort as well) an a couple of new faces in the buggy heat and not just touring cars.

Maybe an idea for the more experienced drivers to try and help the newer drivers with a few tips as long as they promise in a couple of months time not to beat us.

Good sentiment Mike but the tight schedule almost precludes anyone having the time to give much instruction.

Never mind I'm looking forward to next weeks enjoyment already

[FastWheels]

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

Agree with most of the posts about heats.

That's great Marc glad you support the split buggy heat

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

If there's more buggys than TC then the buggys would be split.

Following the trend for participant numbers the buggies are way down the pecking order

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

If both classes reach 10 both will be split.

Even when the Tcs post less than 10 drivers - eg this week, they tend to get split! it's a Win Win

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

I don't like running heats of 4 or less as once someone drops out there's not really much of a race left and you can spend 5 mins driving round without passing or being passed.

Applying this logic it's not worth considering a split as there's always a chance of someone dropping out, better to have much larger heats then when a retirement occurs it's hardly noticed
it's like saying lets stay in the shelter in case they drop a bomb

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

Gonna have to have 4 heats soon anyway I reckon with increasing buggy numbers.

There's a real possibility of this as just recently there have been 5 new buggies Ellis, Paul, Colin, Gary, and myself, had it not been for the newbies then there may have been a heat of 2

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

And no it's generally not the novice drivers who are difficult to lap more the mid abilities!

But of course the mid-abilities are going to be more difficult to lap but they can usually move safely out of the way of someone lapping, at the same time they aren't just there to make the numbers up and provide a foil for the fast lads
What was noticeable was the occasional stopping for whatever reason on the straight, as one time there was a collision which resulted in car damage

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

Maybe when the numbers are like last night split one class for heats and the other for finals? Also maybe only do reverse grid for split finals where ability will be more evenly matched?

Maybe as Colin suggests a staggered start would generally give a cleaner getaway and you may not need to pass anyone and still win! but yes as you say Mark a reverse grid in the finals would have less impact, but I still can't see the reason for it personally.

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

Generally it seems that most don't want to drop a round until numbers dictate we have to run 4 heats tho which I'm working on max 9 cars before splitting to 2 5s when we get 10.

Nobody really wants to reduce the number of races for the sake of it, it's like saying I can only find 1 shoe so lets amputate my other leg! but on Mon there was 2 less cars than required for a heat split and partial mayhem and damage occurred, it's not the Numbers it's the varied driving ability in the same heat.
The biggest problem seems to be experienced by the newest novice drivers, the very people who a club would wish to attract to build for the future are having the hardest time and as a result this reduces the enjoyment they can have, and after all they have paid lots out on a new venture and are paying their weekly fees but seem to get lost in translation

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

Until there's 10 of each we split the busiest class so long as we have min 4 max 9 in a heat.

Unless the trend of comparable numbers reverses then the buggies are going to be marginalised with regard to heat split and the status quo will remain - comfortable easily managed TC heats - crowded difficult buggy heats

Come on Buggies I know your'e out there

If both classes post less than 9 drivers why not just have 2 heats - more rounds gained more time between for adjustments/repairs track realignment lots of marshalls for all races

Originally Posted by lazysurfer

For discussion obviously but that's my suggestion

[FastWheels]

Just wondered is there anyone who could lash up a basic website so maybe we could get the weekly results lap times etc uploaded with an archive to check as well, this may be of more interest when/if we move to planned named track layout as it should give some reference as to any laptime improvements allowing you to chart progress/regression.

[FastWheels]

Just remembered Mike that loud bang followed by my rather sorrowful looking car being carried on a stretcher caused by be forced off the track by the cavalier driving of one Mr Hindson, or wait a minute the Alzheimers is fading it when I moved over to allow a superior driver (PH) to overtake and misjudged my move colliding with the track overlap wiping a wishbone & shock top out - now repaired & ready for action.

[baD]

I'm sure someone above said , just my two penneth, but I must have read at least 18/- & 6d (92.5p if you're a youngster ) - all good stuff.

Wish I could have better Mondays so I could join in
As suggestion, with no bias or favouritism - why not just the old choose a max per heat per class and let the software do the rest.
Set the same max for the next 4 Mondays and see how that pans out. Should be easier for Race Control as well.
If anyone bawls about being in the lower heat, set up a series, update ability from series results each week and sort heats by Ability.

e.g. if you were to choose 9 as the max
10 TC's book in - bbk will make it 5 & 4
9 Buggy - bbk will make it 1 ht of 9

So you may have 3 heats, or occasionally sometimes 2 and sometimes 4
Late arrivals just get placed where you can.

Anyone driver getting good at this game, going to competitions IS DEFINITELY going to come across slower drivers, so best learn to overtake safely now.

Everyone pays the same money to ride on a dodgem, so why should a 5 yr old get less time than a grandad? (or the other way about for that matter)

just my fourpence hap'nney

[Steven Forster]

Agree with everything what FastWheels and bill (baD) have said, wise words...............

Can you not place the known faster drivers in order from experienced to novice for the first qaulifying round but set the starting order so there is the 1.5 second gap between each car that way it wont be destruction derby in the first corner and will then give you an order from the position you finish in for the next qualifying rounds through to the final/s "BUT" without having the reverse order to help the first corner accidents.........???

Are all these 2 penneth's worth gonna be going towards the clubs funds

[TangerineDream]

Wow, everyone has been busy! Jim, your keyboard must be worn out
Thanks for making me part of 'The Elite'!! And apologies for adding that viscous loop at the bottom of the straight, it got me too while I tried (and failed) to steam past Gary on the last lap (resulting in a Massa esq collision)

Some comments and thoughts should anyone like to listen:

First Corner Pile Ups
To answer Colin, we tried staggered starts a few years back and the concessus was that they were much unloved as they took out the true spirit of racing, i.e. why bother passing someone if I can just sit behind and win.....
I think the issue is the starting grid, we had gotten much better at starting a sensible distance apart but recently it has gone back to a free for all, to solve this why don't the marshalls of each heat take responsibility for the grid, set people 1.5 metres apart or so, that should help (I think it may have been worse last week as we started on the straight in each heat, which isn't normal.

Track Layouts
Mark got some good layouts laminated so we should use these if we are stuck, I agree with points raised, why don't we keep a track layout for one month then it allows more people to help with the track and not feel like they are getting in the way.
Also if we drag all of the track to one side of the hall it is much easier to come up with a layout (i.e. when you can see the floor).
I think having a gap along the straight helped with marshalling, why dont we try this each week and save the 30m dash up the straight marshalling.

Splitting Heats
As Mike says, no disrespect to the novice drivers (as we all started here - albeit some 15yrs ago ), it is the mix of ability rather than no's that is our issue to contend with. We had some really close races which turned into a bit of a let down due to tangles and car breakages. As Paul says he found it less fun having to always be thinking about jumping out of peoples way rather than just improving how quick he can get around the track.
We need to have some dialog during the booking in to work out whats best for both classes each week, I think due to the varying numbers this only would work if we do this each week e.g. one week we have 8 experienced drivers, no need to split, next week we have 5 new drivers - again no need to split, week after we have a mix of both - split the heats.
I know people dont want to loose a round if possible, but I'd rather have closer racing (I'm still convinced we can still manage 5 rounds of 4 heats anyway!!)
Again on the reverse grid, this only works with similar abilities (i.e. with split heats if needed), but I think it's given some really good racing and makes it more challenging for those who qualify at the front. I remember Mel winning (or nearly) the A - Final a few weeks back, holding off the faster guys behind, surely challenging and good racing for all.

Anyway, looking forward to next week!!

[TangerineDream]

Also if anyone wants a Tamiya 416, i've reduced it to £150 quid!
It's posted in the for sale section on OOple too!

[gar]

First Corner Pile Ups
To answer Colin, we tried staggered starts a few years back and the concessus was that they were much unloved as they took out the true spirit of racing, i.e. why bother passing someone if I can just sit behind and win.....
I think the issue is the starting grid, we had gotten much better at starting a sensible distance apart but recently it has gone back to a free for all, to solve this why don't the marshalls of each heat take responsibility for the grid, set people 1.5 metres apart or so, that should help (I think it may have been worse last week as we started on the straight in each heat, which isn't normal.

Hi Paul well the staggered starts work very well at the barley Mow as the first three heats of the night should really be about qualifying.ie lap times and the amount of laps.As to gain your final grid position

Then when it comes to the finals you all start at the same time so racing will or should begin then

saves broken wishbones at the last corner lol

Gary

[lazysurfer]

StAggered starts def get thumbs down from me for the reason mentioned. A sensible grid and some restraint on lap 1 would solve first corner pileups. As for heats of less than 4 - fine if you're happy to have less than 4 marshals???
Also dispute the buggys being victimised and unlikely to get split because of less numbers. Buggys are increasing by the week and I'm sure will outnumber TC's very soon!
That'll mean 4 heats and solve everyone's gripes - sooner the better from my point of view. Anyone else want to stand for chairman at the next AGM???