TLR 22 Build and Set-ups

[Tristanssid]

Hello, with the mid motor I seem to be very competitive with my setup, my car has more rear end traction then I know what to do with (ran a low geared 5.5t brushless on damp grass today with no issues, I had no choice before anyone points out thats its a silly motor to run). It NEEDS new mini spike yellows on the rear to be competitive on damp grass. It prefers them on shiny floor and carpet. Dry grass no idea as I haven't had the privelage.

I run as per the instruction manual other then;
30W oil front, Blue springs (green for more front end, black for a safer car)
25W oil Rear, White springs
The top link for the rear shocks runs on the shortest possible link, be careful not to over tighten one ball stud or the shaft will push and bend the stud, easily done with such short links
It has 2mm under the outer cups 0mm inner, and runs 0 degrees camber.
Another important thing is back those shock nuts off abit or the ball in the shock pivot expands and the shocks are inconsistant.
No extra weights.
Saddle packs
I have a full size servo, with the ESC on the plate over the motor.

The next thing I want to play with is rebound, I'm using 100% but on the ruts today it was ever so slightly unsettled (and very slightly, still much more stable then any other car running) which I think might be my shock building

I can honestly say I've gone from winning the bottom final or mid to last in the one up with my XXX, now I'm as quick as anyone, just seem to bin the car every time I'm doing well out of lack of concentration, I will win an A final at my local club soon if I get my driving more consistant, (and if Jim ever can't make it :P). I've had our local ace drive it, and he was shocked at how much traction I'd found.

They are great if you find a setup that works, but when I first got mine I couldn't stop it from snapping in then push mid corner, or put any power down without the car getting out of shape, then taking ages to settle. So I understand the frustration.

Odd that I have gone the total oposite way from most guys by running a very high amount of camber gain. But it works, I'm scared of changing anything!!!

[Gnarly Old Dog]

@Tristanssid - That has to be one of the best and most refreshing posts I've read for a long time - thank you.
Key points (for others still trying to find their way)
1) Don't be scared to try something - you won't know until you try
2) Everybody's driving style is different - so published setups don't work for everyone.

Regarding that last point - I have to fess up and apologise. After testing the car to the best of my ability to find a 'neutral' base setup for us UK Astro and high bite racers to work from to begin with, I have to accept that mine is obviously a rather strange driving style and probably far too girly on the throttle for the more testosterone charged amongst us. Thus, a lot of my setups tend to be best described as loose and edgy and probably don't suit many people Sorry for that - old habits die hard and I can't change the way I drive.

But it is refreshing to read whenever anyone finds something that is working for them and isn't afraid to open themselves up to criticism because their setup doesn't fit the expected norm.

Thanks again for posting your set up. Its good to know.

[DCM]

Then, as I can't see where my setup is vastly different, then there must be an issue somewhere in the car causing my problem, grrr!

[Gnarly Old Dog]

I'm sure you have checked DCM - but have you checked the shock upper ball joints - as Tristanssid has found - they can bind up if over tightened and that will lead to some massively unpleasant and inconsistent handling?

I don't know what else to suggest to you. Things I've done recently as the grip has come up to Stupid levels are as follows

1) Remove TLR rear weight completely - this has the effect of inducing more mid corner push and reduces the over rotation that I actually like but I know others dont. It also improves big jump landings and virtually eliminates the double bounce

2) Add SidePod weights - I'm using Tony's Rudebits which helps calm the car down on high bite especially across adverse camber sections and high speed corners

3) Shorter front link - not sure If I like it shorter (cos I like the rotation) but a shorter front link definitely seems to allow the car to release from the turn earlier and enable you to get on the power earlier (or harder)

I know you've pretty much tried most things DCM - so I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs - but if any of this helps then all is good.

Lastly, the other thing that I notice with the car (or any 2WD for that matter) is that if the diff is gritty, then it becomes real hard to stay smooth coming out of any corner.

HTH

[DCM]

I know the shock tops are free, as I always tighten them up, then back off till the shock drops under it's own weight, think I had best start doing things like checking for bent chassis and the like, but it looks pretty straight!

[ianjoyner]

Something I'm going to try this weekend is blue/black front springs. Intuitively it just didn't seem right moving to much stiffer greens over the stock reds, but after moving between the two a few times greens just seem plain better, much more stability with minimal loss of steering. I'm hoping blue/black offers more of the same.

[Buggy Driver]

DCM: Maybe check the diff, as this seems to be crucial on this car. Car went from good to bad these days within a few runs and it was obviously the diff getting bad as it got completely screwed quite abrupt at one point. Changed to an Associated gear diff and it was awesome, way better than ever before.
Maybe you can put in someone else´s (ball) diff to try, not that much work. Even if it seems to work just fine it is able to unsettle the whole car.

Regarding only one point to be bad to make the car really slow/ bad: My car was lacking low speed steering at all for a few races before I was shown that the servo saver I had installed almost didn´t lock at all in corners. Removed it and got steering INSTANTLY. I thought it could be the servo saver by myself, but as it was just lacking low speed steering I just tried a lot of setup changes, but nothing really helped, just like with your tyres.
So maybe one detail is just off and this could be the diff without being obvious.

[Tristanssid]

Originally Posted by Gnarly Old Dog

@Tristanssid - That has to be one of the best and most refreshing posts I've read for a long time - thank you.
Key points (for others still trying to find their way)
1) Don't be scared to try something - you won't know until you try
2) Everybody's driving style is different - so published setups don't work for everyone.

Regarding that last point - I have to fess up and apologise. After testing the car to the best of my ability to find a 'neutral' base setup for us UK Astro and high bite racers to work from to begin with, I have to accept that mine is obviously a rather strange driving style and probably far too girly on the throttle for the more testosterone charged amongst us. Thus, a lot of my setups tend to be best described as loose and edgy and probably don't suit many people Sorry for that - old habits die hard and I can't change the way I drive.

But it is refreshing to read whenever anyone finds something that is working for them and isn't afraid to open themselves up to criticism because their setup doesn't fit the expected norm.

Thanks again for posting your set up. Its good to know.

Thank you, I think it's worth trying anything before throwing away an investment.

My very unknowledgable view on this car was that the kit setup was for rear motor, so with the extra weight at the front and less at the rear the suspension has to be hardened on front softened at the rear for the mid.

For this car I would definately recommend a descent servo, Sub 0.10 seconds, I'm running 12Kg torque, my first servo (0.14S, 7Kg torque) just wasn't man enough to cope with even slippy conditions.

Another thing is I find high punch setups aren't the way to go. The real challenge with this car is finding rear end grip that doesn't snap on you suddenly when you go beyond the limit. In my opinion Mid motors are about carrying corner speed not stop and go.

I'm certainly got alot to learn, intregued by anti-squat and HRC vs LRC. Just trying to piece together the options, which is where this forum really helps.

[Legacy555]

Not sure if this is a help, but I found if you tried dialling out steering by reducing the front tyre grip - either cutting off rows of spikes or going to a stagger rib - that the rear end roll was reduced and actually resulted in less rear grip as well as front.

It was only when I decided that I would run a full unmodified front yellow minispike on the front and work on a setup around that that the rear grip really started to lock in.

I dont run the TLR brass weight on the back, but I do have 20 grams between the motor and gearbox, 44 grams under the cells and 15g around the servo. I've pink rear and black front springs, 32.5 oil all round, 3x55 in front, 5 x 1.3mm in rear. The car is planted!

I suspect that turning the cells sideways and shifting them back to butt up against the motor will be beneficial. Means having to make up a battery strap with a tierod up to the gearbox casing as per C4.1/CR2.

[Tristanssid]

Please note this is thinking out loud!!! This is more just trying to start the ball rolling on ideas on the problems with the 22, maybe we're looking at it wrong!!

Just thinking from the ground up. If antisquat is designed to stop the back end drooping under power, then due to there being a lot less weight over the rear end maybe we are all running far too much antisquat, and not letting the rear wheels get the weight shift they need.

I was thinking that everyone had the X-6 in mind when thinking of the handling they expected from the mid motored 22, but the X-6 places the battery so far rearwards that you actually have simular weight distribution to a rear motored car. The 22 has the weight further forward, and so maybe base line settings brought over from the rear motor are very backwards.

The X-6 is known for being able to put its power down without the back end steppig sideways as much, in theory this could be because it has the same rear mass, just less rear inertia as there is no massive motor hanging behind the rear wheels.

I'm thinking the 22 in theory should have harder fronts (due to more weight) softer rear (due to less weight) less antisquat (due to less inertia over the rear wheels), which is where running 50g right at the back turns this cars antisquat into a setting closer to correct, rather then changing the antisquat to suit the car, and less camber on the rear wheels as the lack of weight doesn't roll the car as much. This list is ever growing, so if you think of anything relevant then pipe up!! Also maybe I need to look into the touring car guys as they use cars low inertia (putting weight nearer the centre) to help with certain handling qualities, maybe the next thing on the to research list.

I don't think this car will ever compete with the rear motors for out and out drive, unless there is so much grip the rear motors are lifting the front tyres.

I personally think people need to know that mid motor is sacrifising rear end grip for what when setup correctly gains cornering speed and stability, also the changes in direction can be done with much more control. However the base line settings are just pure wrong.

This cars mid motor setup is a completely unique buggy weight distribution and inertia level, I think I'm on the right lines with the rear end camber and shocks, I think I need to rethink a few things from the ground up, but stealing things that work for other cars is unfortunatly not going to help with this car.

Just food for thought guys, hope I'm not rocking any boats.

Any specific questions please feel free to PM me.
Trish

[elvo]

Originally Posted by Tristanssid

I was thinking that everyone had the X-6 in mind when thinking of the handling they expected from the mid motored 22, but the X-6 places the battery so far rearwards that you actually have simular weight distribution to a rear motored car. The 22 has the weight further forward, and so maybe base line settings brought over from the rear motor are very backwards.

I'm thinking the 22 in theory should have harder fronts (due to more weight) softer rear (due to less weight) less antisquat

Agreed.

[Legacy555]

Originally Posted by Tristanssid

Please note this is thinking out loud!!! This is more just trying to start the ball rolling on ideas on the problems with the 22, maybe we're looking at it wrong!!

Hi Trish, good call! this is what I've done - car is really good.
This is more to kick off a discussion than to come across as a self proclaiming type...

I moved onto the 22 from a CR2. The CR2 was a good improvement over the XXX-CR "out of the box" (just by taking a XXX-CR kit and adding the AC bits) but the CR2 really only became really competitive after you balanced the car and weighted it up (used to run mine at 1710g).

You need to get the 22 onto four small weighing scales (ebay about £5 each from hong kong) and balance the car up 35% front 65% rear. And you need to raise the weight up to about 1700g (this is weight that the C4.1 Centros are running at). My 22 is superb, by far the best car that I have ever had.

I run the following weights;
105g (4mm of stainless) under the rear lipo (one cell only)
35g over the gearbox
25g of brass around the frontal rear wishbone pivot.
10g - 3 degree stainless steel antisquat shim
35g inside the motor shroud and on the chassis in front of the motor
5g under the gearbox behind the front pivot.

Before I weighted up the car, the rear end was snappy. Now balanced the car is really really good. The back end rolls nicely and generates good grip - I've been clipping the outside row of spikes, gone back to the kit 4.0 LRC pivot and generally using pink rear springs.

I've been looking at all of the various aftermarket chassis' available - frankly I think they all lack imagination. The AC one would be my choice of the lot, but why not use a thicker carbon sheet and mill out an area under the motor for a nice big brass plate to slot into??? I agree with most that the car is a pinch long - I added 8mm to my CR2 and it was a huge improvement, but the 22 is another 6mm longer again....

We could also use a 3 piece gearbox housing - have a brass base that comes up as far as 1/2 way through the diff outdrives and they have plastic from there on up. I'd also like the gearbox to be a little more upright - means the motor could be raised a couple of mm and some weight could go in underneath whilst pushing it backwards also.

Just some ideas.... but I find the car really good - many don't

[OldTimer]

Originally Posted by Legacy555

I've been looking at all of the various aftermarket chassis' available - frankly I think they all lack imagination. The AC one would be my choice of the lot, but why not use a thicker carbon sheet and mill out an area under the motor for a nice big brass plate to slot into??? I agree with most that the car is a pinch long - I added 8mm to my CR2 and it was a huge improvement, but the 22 is another 6mm longer again....

I don't use a thicker sheet for two reasons, the 1st is there is no need with the conversion to add extra weight at the back, we even suggest not to run the losi weight kit and as a starting setup we suggest just to run 100grams under the lipos, 2nd if you go thicker than 2.5mm you have problems at the front end as both parts of the front end bolt from each side of the chassis.

[Wacker1]

You beat me to it Jonathan!!

I just Edited my Post in the 'Show Us Your Losi 22 Conversions' Section, regarding no use for the TLR Brass Rear Weight Kit on the AC Tardis 22!

HERE IT IS :

"By the way, just out of Intrest, I had my Tardis 22 Mounted on 4 Scales the other week, to Compare against a Standard Losi 22 in Mid-Motor Configuration - surprisingly, even against a fully Weighted up Losi 22, inc the TLR Brass Rear Weight Kit, according to the Scales, the Tardis 22 had 50g extra Weight pushing down on each of the Rear Wheels!!
.........& thats without even running the TLR Brass Rear Weight Kit!"

[Legacy555]

Originally Posted by OldTimer

I don't use a thicker sheet for two reasons, the 1st is there is no need with the conversion to add extra weight at the back, we even suggest not to run the losi weight kit and as a starting setup we suggest just to run 100grams under the lipos, 2nd if you go thicker than 2.5mm you have problems at the front end as both parts of the front end bolt from each side of the chassis.

Thanks for the response Jonathan. What sort of overall weight have your drivers been running the car at? Thanks William

[Wacker1]

Around 1700g

[OldTimer]

Originally Posted by Legacy555

Thanks for the response Jonathan. What sort of overall weight have your drivers been running the car at? Thanks William

I am running at 1650g but i only have the weight under the lipos, no other weight in the car, but the other guys are around 1650-1700 it seems the 22 is generally a heavy car.

[Tristanssid]

I don't know whats up with mine, but I'm running it at 1550g no extra weights and I'm really enjoying to handling. Initial drive isn't as good as other cars, out of corners, esp slow corners, but I'm carrying extra speed so most people need the extra drive just to get back the speed I already have.
Could be that I'm running round tight tracks with very little straights so I don't notice it, or that I'm used to driving twitchy as hell, over powered touring cars. If everyone is getting more success by weighing down the rear, maybe I'm just pissing against the wind, but I have it set in my mind I want to play to the strengths of the mid motored car with weight so central rather then make it just more like every car, I realise that there is an extreme trade off by having the weight so far forward, but maybe I'm hoping for an extreme gain in other areas.
I certainly don't think it's even possible to make the mid motored car complete round some tracks, but I personally think that if a weights going to be thrown over the rear tyres, it may as well be the motor itself.
I'm sure I'll throw in the towel at somepoint soon if I reach a performance ceiling and I can't get anymore out of the car, and start adding weight or even go rear motor. I'm learning all the time. Just wondering if anyone else has played with angles of everything before adding weight?

[Bob_Zahn]

I find this discussion on weight and chassis length to be very interesting.

I'm running my mid motor car on carpet at the moment and have been experimenting with adding weight.

What would be a good target weight for my car for this type of surface? I have yet to weigh my car but I have tested the car with extra weight under the Lipo and/or mounted the gear case.

The track has incredible amounts of traction which can make the car twitchy if it is setup to have enough steering to be fast in the corners. I'm using the Xcelorin short 3800mah Lipo so I'm more than likely very light to start. Any suggestions welcome.

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Originally Posted by Tristanssid

I don't know whats up with mine, but I'm running it at 1550g no extra weights and I'm really enjoying to handling. Initial drive isn't as good as other cars, out of corners, esp slow corners, but I'm carrying extra speed so most people need the extra drive just to get back the speed I already have.

Couldn't agree more.
That's exactly what I have found myself - I don't feel as if I struggle for drive but with the set up I enjoy driving, the car certainly seems to carry a lot of corner speed so I maybe don't need to hit the throttle very hard

In fact, at a recent regional on grass (you know - that natural astroturf stuff that doesn't last as long as the green grocers stuff), I found that as the grip deteriorated, my pace out of the corners increased in comparison with some other mid cars.

Personally, I believe it comes down to driving style and preference. Some drivers prefer the car to feel more locked in as it gives them confidence to push whereas others maybe take a subtly different line or style which enables them to drive a setup that others find undriveable.
@Bob-Zahn - If you are on carpet with Schumacher yellow mini pins, I would be looking for a weight bias of 37/63 an experiment with adding weight upto 1700g. Higher than 1700 and the car does feel as if it slaps through the travel too quickly - but too light and it can feel really hard to hang onto. Just be aware that as you add weight under the LiPo, it will alter the weight bias very fractionally.
Also, don't just think of adding weight longitudinally - where you place it laterally will also affect the handling - some may like it whilst others may not. Personally - I do - but as I've said before - my driving style and setups are not to everyone's taste but this year - comparitively to my peers, I am 0.5s a lap faster with the 22 than I was with my last year's car.
So I'm happy