LiPo Batteries / £540 for damages

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

I'm afraid this is poor example of pulling something from somewhere else, out of context, and it then getting out of hand. For the record...

It is true. The point is not that this can happen but that if you import something from someone who is not the official importer, distributor or retailer inside the EU, then you are liable. Insurance companies will take the liability to the official importers, distributors, etc. in order to pay the claim. If you bought the product outside the official importer, distributor, etc., then you are the importer, and you will be asked by the insurance company to settle the claim. It is then up to you to sue whoever you want to sue in order to get your money back. If you can afford the time and money...

This is not about the quality of the product, how the accident happened, or the rights and wrongs of what the Club did or did not do. It is a piece of information about what can now happen if you import something outside an official EU distribution network.

This is not a matter for debate. It will make no difference whatsoever what your opinion, or the opinion of your mate down the pub is, this is English Law. If you want to change the interpretation of the Law through a Judge's Precedent, then go right ahead.

In this case, the Club claimed against the BRCA Insurance, the Insurer asked who the importer was in order to claim against them, and when it was revealed that the person had bought them from the Far East, and not an EU official importer, distributor, etc. the insurance company put the claim on the individual as the importer.

Go ahead; whinge, bitch, come up with all the usual alternatives, quote anyone, but this is a fact, it is true, and it is being put out as a guide to all RC drivers of the possible risks. When you import outside the official network of a product's distributors, this is a potential risk. It is up to you whether you take that risk or not.

It would have been better if the person who started this thread had spent some time researching the source, and stating exactly the context in which it was posted. I hope this makes that context clear, and that with this information you will make your own decisions about where you buy things. HTH

So if u buy a Ford from the usages that not made in Europe or sold in Europe. Even tho Ford will warrAnty cover it, I can inside of I'm liable for any accident?

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by jasonb

Have you ever been sat in the pits when the guy opposite has a lipo go bang due to a charger failure?
I have at the worlds in Germany and its not funnyif that cell had been in a sack the nobody would have got a face full of the noxious shite that spews forth and said racer probably wouldnt have lost.most of the gear on his pit table. No one watches their cells like a hawk when they are charging the racer in question was off truing tryes at the time (lucky for him).

Lipo sacks are a MUST in my opinion.

Jason

Lipo bags are only needed if racers don't take their charger off nimh mode before charging lipo, the said racer would not have lost his gear...........
It's common sence that's needed.

[Steven Forster]

Originally Posted by truggy lover

true or not now the lid is off the can the worms are out

charge in a sack , use a charger designed for lipo and be safe

all that matters really

neil

Sorry but doesnt always work using a LiPo sack, heres a pic to show from another forum............

Here a pic of my dads Lipo after it went up in flames a couple of weeks ago, he over discharged the pack down to 11.2v (14.8v pack) so not a huge amount over the minimum 12v. He put it on to charge but his charger didn’t recognize it said voltage to low but he managed to get it charging on a low 1 amp charge.

Left it charging for 5 hours then decided to up the charge amps to 3 amps, left it to make a phone call and could smell something burning came back to the pack to find it smoking so he chucked it outside on the drive. Then 1 minute later there was a huge whoosh sound and 5 foot flames on the drive which burned like this for about 3 minutes!! This was in a core-rc charge pouch also which as you can see did not contain the fire!! Be careful folks and never charge unattended or overdischarge.

This was a Hyperion battery which are regarded as one of the best on the market so not a cheap HK pack.

Thought it was worth sharing as I have to admit I had become complacent when charging.....





hope ive done this pic properly........

[mark christopher]

I'd like to know what the policy says.
I know your not covered if your not covered while marshaling unless your on your marshal point

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by dexter24

Sorry but doesnt always work using a LiPo sack, heres a pic to show from another forum............

Here a pic of my dads Lipo after it went up in flames a couple of weeks ago, he over discharged the pack down to 11.2v (14.8v pack) so not a huge amount over the minimum 12v. He put it on to charge but his charger didn’t recognize it said voltage to low but he managed to get it charging on a low 1 amp charge.

Left it charging for 5 hours then decided to up the charge amps to 3 amps, left it to make a phone call and could smell something burning came back to the pack to find it smoking so he chucked it outside on the drive. Then 1 minute later there was a huge whoosh sound and 5 foot flames on the drive which burned like this for about 3 minutes!! This was in a core-rc charge pouch also which as you can see did not contain the fire!! Be careful folks and never charge unattended or overdischarge.

This was a Hyperion battery which are regarded as one of the best on the market so not a cheap HK pack.

Thought it was worth sharing as I have to admit I had become complacent when charging.....





hope ive done this pic properly........

1amp for 5 hours.......... only way to trick a charger when low voltage it switch to nimh if that's the case. Only fault is your dad.......

[mark christopher]

As a side note for lipo sack. Where is the wording or regulations defining what a lipo sack is? Because brca wording is very loose.

Re brca lipo clubs only have to comply to the brca general rules and do not have to adopt the eh list, as with any non brca sanctioned meeting such as oople invatational

[mattybucks]

Know-one can make a informed decison regarding liability.

We do not know the circumstances regarding the LIPO's going up, if it was mis-treated, incorrectly charged, or just being taken out of the packet, or the real circumstances regarding the accident.

We've not seen a copy of the hall hire agreement.

We do not know why the insurer has refused deal with the claim.

Let the claimant issue proceedings against the defendant, bring in the BRCA, and the Club as Part 20 defendants at let them fight it out.

I really hope Lipo's are not as unstable as this post suggests as I have a pack in my desk as I type this thread, and no there not in a Lipo sack.

[Jim Spencer]

Hi All

Ok first off, everybody is sorted in this incident - which is true - and everybody is happy with the outcome, it has been resolved.

Next bit - Please read the rules you're operating to, which are the general rules in the front of the handbook, everytime you use your car you are working to them, doesn't matter what sort of event you are at.

So use a LiPo sack.


Next bit

Yes we give an indemnity to hirers (clubs or individuals) for damage to premises caused by our activities.
And this has NEVER been a problem, and indeed wasn't in this case.

The problem here is only this:-
Imprting things from outside of the EU (though if it was manufactured in the EU and exported out and you're importing it back that's different) is a problem.

There is no process wherby somebody else will step into the frame and check that what you've imported is Ok for use here.

Unlike Cars (as somebody mentioned it above) if you import a car then the nice people at VOSA check it for you, if they're happy you get it signed off, and then you can use it, and insure it, here.

Importers and Manufacturers are required to have product liability insurance (one of the many reasons things are more expensive in the EU than outside of it) so when a product is deemed to be faulty Insurance Companies (who provide personal, household or as in our case Public Liability cover) are well used to going back to them and discussing the cost they've just had.

The problem occurs if you've personally imported the product.

There's nobody to take the rap if it's faulty and the fault causes an Insurance claim, so it lands on your lap.

It doesn't matter what the product is, could theoretically be anything, certainly a major headache in other areas - Pushbikes is one i've heard of (frame snapped caused a car crash, big claim apparently).

So for now just make sure you know where your buying stuff from, has the item been checked by anybody (i.e is it on one of our lists?, is it an EU manufacturer?) and if you're not happy go elsewhere, there's plenty of choice.

Even in the case above the item in question is available for retail sale from a EU retailer and for a euro more could have come with piece of mind..

[truggy lover]

what is the correct process for getting a lipo battery passed onto the EB list ?

[Nige]

£540 is a sizable chunk of money, but is within the reach of most people, though what happens if a Lipo fire hadn't just damaged the carpet and the building burnt down. Would the individual have to pay the £100k's to have it rebuilt.

Maybe for clarity a list of what is/isn't included by the insurance would be helpful. As what happens if a part you've made breaks on a car and it careers off the track and hits someone. Since it was a homemade part would you be liable? The list of scenarios is endless.....so please can we have some guidance.

[Gazza]

Originally Posted by Gazza

CE marking

Just checked all my so called BRCA approved cells 1s & 2s and I cant find any CE mark on any of them ?

Smc 4900

Team Powers 6000

Ip intelect 5000<<<<<< made in China

What should we be looking for . . . although one does say
Made in china

Any one ?

Deffinition of a LiPo Sack is . . .

As the so called LiPo sack also went up in flames as far as im concerned this method is Busted

In this case We now need a NON Flamable material prefably Clear / see through so you can see the Pack puffing up and dissconect it and then take out side before it gose woof . . . . just an idea

Just a thought how many people put there Laptop / net book in a lipo sack while at a meeting yes its got a LiPo / Lion battery in it

BUT the charger Cannot be tampered with so it must be people doing some thing wrong like mentioned above in NIMH Mode

down to human error

[rbridd]

Originally Posted by dexter24

managed to get it charging on a low 1 amp charge.

Left it charging for 5 hours then decided to up the charge amps to 3 amps,
Thought it was worth sharing as I have to admit I had become complacent when charging.....

.....

So after already ramming 5000mah into a known possible risky battery, decided to increase the amperage of the charge, and then leave it unobserved...

Words fail me.

[Jim Spencer]

Originally Posted by Nige

£540 is a sizable chunk of money, but is within the reach of most people, though what happens if a Lipo fire hadn't just damaged the carpet and the building burnt down. Would the individual have to pay the £100k's to have it rebuilt.

Maybe for clarity a list of what is/isn't included by the insurance would be helpful. As what happens if a part you've made breaks on a car and it careers off the track and hits someone. Since it was a homemade part would you be liable? The list of scenarios is endless.....so please can we have some guidance.

If you decide to IMPORT a product you decide to import a product..

If a car leaves a track then the fault is - the fence isn't good enough, cars break, this is model car racing and it's expected in racing for things to break occasionally.

The insurance will quite happily cover a totally scratchbuilt car, as that was all there used to be.

It's dead straightforward - read the General Rules, conform to them and you're covered, and none of the posts on here in any way what-so-ever invalidate the PUBLIC LIABILITY INSURANCE, that's not in question what-so-ever, it will still hold even with el-cheapo chinease cells in the car, you could manufacture them yourself if you wanted to and it would still work.
You could put the proverbial flux capacitor, a steam engine, gas turbine, solid fuel rocket if you like, make them all yourself and it will still work.


BUT

What we can't put in rules is what you should understand as basic common sense, in that it's not the associations role to educate people on basic consumer principles!

But lets have a go shall we.. We all understand that when you buy something from a shop on the high street you have 'rights' yes?

If you want to circumnavigate all the regulations your local high street retailer has to comply with and personally import something then there are consequences, and this is one of them in that you have no PRODUCT LIABILITY cover.

You leave yourself wide open on that one, and on most things it would be highly unlikely to be a problem, but this is one where it is..

LiPo batteries are VERY high profile (see the signs in airports worldwide) so people outside the sport will examine the nitty gritty when things go pear shaped with them.

[Jim Spencer]

Originally Posted by truggy lover

what is the correct process for getting a lipo battery passed onto the EB list ?

Extensive, so attached here:-
http://www.brca.org/?q=content/homol...procedure/1399

[RogerM]

I think it's a matter of using sense and judgement here, yes the various potential risks involved with this sport are many and varied (you'd not think to make an insurance claim on the BRCA if you slipped on some wet astro turf as a rain storm and broke a bone would you for example).

When it comes to how we use our equipment I don't think you can go far wrong by following the guidelines in the manufactures documentation and that of the BRCA.

As for the question about lists for homologated equipment it's here

http://www.brca.org/?q=content/homol...1-updates/1402

As for if LiPo sacks are of any use I have no idea, luckily I've never seen a LiPo go up, but if the BRCA say I need on then I need one!

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by baD

On a positive note ........

If the situation is such that the BRCA Insurance consider the individual has acted as an individual, and not as an R/C racer when buying the cells, then the individual should approach his household insurer re the Family Liabilities section of the policy and claim.
Make the 2 insurers fight it out between them.

Most likely outcome, they both say No, and then it ends up with http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk

I think Jim has explained that one. Your BRCA status has nothing to do with your status for importing goods. If you import something from the EU, you are treated as an EU citizen able to take advantage of free trade across borders. If you import things from outside the EU you re charged relevant duties and taxes and are treated as the importer.

Originally Posted by mark christopher

So if u buy a Ford from the usages that not made in Europe or sold in Europe. Even tho Ford will warrAnty cover it, I can inside of I'm liable for any accident?

Not the same situation. Cars are covered by the Construction and USe Regulations. As well as being the importer (you pays the taxes and duties - see above) you also have to have Type Approval, or Single Type approval. Once you have that you can insure the car. As for warranty, that seems to be up to the manufacturer, of which Ford seem to be one of the better ones, along with Toyota, at honouring warranties for cars imported from the likes of America and Japan.

Originally Posted by rbridd

So after already ramming 5000mah into a known possible risky battery, decided to increase the amperage of the charge, and then leave it unobserved...

Words fail me.

And me!! On which planet is ignoring every instruction and advice ever given on how to use these batteries been grounds for blaming anyone else?

Thanks to Jim for laying out the issues and clarifying our questions. Caveat emptor - buyer beware!!

[Jim Spencer]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

As a side note for lipo sack. Where is the wording or regulations defining what a lipo sack is? Because brca wording is very loose.

Re brca lipo clubs only have to comply to the brca general rules and do not have to adopt the eh list, as with any non brca sanctioned meeting such as oople invatational

The wording is straightforward for a reason, when we've enquired about having a LiPo sack made to a set fire retardant specification nobody wanted to know.

So it's dead simple:-

If a retailer is willing to sell it - and therefore their insurer is willing to let Product Liability insurance apply - then it's 'fit for purpose'.

In this case it's much simplier for the trade to make the call.

[ianjoyner]

Originally Posted by Jim Spencer

There's nobody to take the rap if it's faulty and the fault causes an Insurance claim, so it lands on your lap.

Really? I thought product liability applies to products that have been sold, in this case the product was never on sale, there's no one to take the rap in a product liability sense and that's it...

It's helpful of this thread to remind people that when they import something from outside the EU that they have no EU/UK product liability come back, but I've seen nothing to suggest that they themselves become responsible for product liability unless they actually put it on sale (for retail as a new product).

[HarlowS]

This thread could go on for months, Just out of interest, what if you bought a 2nd hand lipo from a fellow racer who imported it ?? Who is liable then ?

[jimmy]

I dread the day I have to put my laptop in a 'sac' at a race meeting just so I can report.