TLR 22 Build and Set-ups

[Reevsey]

Originally Posted by ianjoyner

Thanks for the tips Si, on the rear ball studs, just wondering why add washers to the outside rather than take away the 2mm from the inside? Isn't that a similar effect?

It is a fair question to ask but if you lower the whole link at both ends so to speak you are doing 2 things, 1 you are changing your roll center and the 2nd you are changing the arch of your camber as your suspension compresses

Hope that helps

[Reevsey]

Originally Posted by reg

some very helpfull info,does more kick up give more or less steering?i thought putting back the 2mm washer on the tower if you dont have enough with out them would give you less steering,wouldnt having a longer camberlink and a 2mm washer on the caster block give you more,
the only reason i say this is because i had a cougar,adding washers took away alot of the steering,i just thought i was getting the hang of this set up lark

Hi Reg, on the front link as a rule

The lower you have the link on the tower the more initial turn in you should get so it will feel a little more twitchy but then you will loose grip through the middle and exit of the turn

The higher you have the link on the tower you will loose more initial turn so it is smoother and can feel like less steering but you then gain more grip through the middle and the exit of the turn.

So yesterday for example i saw a few 22's looking like they where light on rear traction and the issue was the front end holding onto the turn to long

let me know if that does not make sense

Cheers

[Reevsey]

Originally Posted by reg

some very helpfull info,does more kick up give more or less steering?i thought putting back the 2mm washer on the tower if you dont have enough with out them would give you less steering,wouldnt having a longer camberlink and a 2mm washer on the caster block give you more,
the only reason i say this is because i had a cougar,adding washers took away alot of the steering,i just thought i was getting the hang of this set up lark

Hi Reg

Giving the car more kick up is similar in the way it handles but not 100% the same as giving a car more caster so less kick up will make the car change direction faster where as more kick up will make the cars reaction slow down a little and make the car more forgiving to drive. If you try both back to back as it is only a quick change on the car you will be very supprised at the difference it makes to the way the car handles

Cheers

[cwp]

Can anyone explain to me how the camber links on the rear hub work?
Say what happens when there at the front of the hub or at the back the hub.

Cheers
Mark

[ianjoyner]

Originally Posted by Reevsey

It is a fair question to ask but if you lower the whole link at both ends so to speak you are doing 2 things, 1 you are changing your roll center and the 2nd you are changing the arch of your camber as your suspension compresses

Hope that helps

Hi Si, cheers, so having a few washers under each end is presumably a higher roll centre than no washers either end?

Ian

[ianjoyner]

Originally Posted by cwp

Can anyone explain to me how the camber links on the rear hub work?
Say what happens when there at the front of the hub or at the back the hub.

Cheers
Mark

My guess, but I'm happy to be corrected, is that the front holes on the hub are for rear motor, the rear holes on the hub are for mid motor (the inner ball stud is further back on mid motor) and the two middle holes are an inbetween setting of the 3 main holes for mid or rear motor.

[jimmy]

I thought the holes were like that so the hubs could be used on either side of the car, that's all.

[reg]

Thanks Si,it makes purfect sense

[Reevsey]

Originally Posted by ianjoyner

Hi Si, cheers, so having a few washers under each end is presumably a higher roll centre than no washers either end?

Ian

That is the way i look at it but i could stand corrected.

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Originally Posted by jimmy

I thought the holes were like that so the hubs could be used on either side of the car, that's all.

Yup - it just so happens that you use the other rows on the rear config car - but Jimmy's explanation is AFAIK spot on

[Reevsey]

Originally Posted by jimmy

I thought the holes were like that so the hubs could be used on either side of the car, that's all.

You are correct Jimmy, the holes are there to be universal and as has been mentioned you may chose to run them in front or rear positions to straighten your camber links up on the car but i think there is another question be asked which is how does a long v short camber link position on the hub effect the car?

Shorter link will have more camber gain through compression of the suspension so this will give you more traction but will reach a point where the car then brakes away into a slide at this point the traction is lost very quickly and hard to recover with out spinning out. I shorter link will also be better through the bumps and has more chassis body roll

Longer link will have less camber gain through compression of the suspension so this will give less rear traction but the benefit is when the car slides it slides gradually and therefor is easier to catch, longer links make the car stiffer on chassis body roll so hence will not feel as good through the bumps.

Now last bit is the hole in the hub will also have an effect on the way the car enters the turn, i can't remeber which way but it will either enter the turn harder or not so guess i need to do some work to clarify that one

Si

[Kit Jones]

Originally Posted by Bob_Zahn

Good idea with cutting the coils on the front springs to stiffen them. Why did you start with 6 hole pistons instead of using the stock 4 hole pistons?

I ran the 4 hole pistons first but really struggled over the bumps as it was over damped. Stotfold is quite bumpy and it can make a big difference to lap times if the car can handle them without losing control. The 6 hole pistons just allowed the suspension to react quicker to the small bumps and therefore made the car easier to drive.

The negative of this is that the car will ground out quite easily over jumps. At Stotfold, the jumps have downramps so it is not too much of a problem but for elsewhere it may be necessary to run smaller holes in the pistons.

[jondell]

Kit, which sections of the track did you think the 4 hole was not so good? Far side middle loop? My car felt fine over bumps, but then I would not be going quite so fast.

Long link on rear was more consistent as simon explained. My tyres were shot by the final and I moved to a shorter link to try and help. It got snatchy out of corners and harder to drive. Less squat would have help as I was on 3deg. Probably why I was happy with it over bumps. Sooo much to try....

[jampat2004]

Originally Posted by pugboy

Two minor issues still to resolve, both steering related..

I found there was some resistance between the two parts of the steering rack mouldings over part of the travel... Did anyone else find this? It's a bit difficult to know where/if to try and dremel it cause it's hard to tell where it is binding. I didn't notice any burrs.

The other one is the one Jimmy and others mentioned, with the ballcup fouling on the front of the servo near full right lock. Running Savox LP servo with 2.5mm spacers. I have done a little dremelling to the underside of the top brace to deal with the other ball joint but now the only coice seems to be find a small ballcup or dremel the existing ballcup or the servo.

There are lots of things to like and marvel at on this car but the steering could do with a little more flexibility in the design, the tolerances are just too tight/non existent.

i also had the issue with binding on the steering rack there was a very small burr on the fixed part of the rack which i removed with a small needle file and is now free.
i am also using a 1251 low profile i found by just slightly altering the underside of the bulkhead ie removeing a bit of the plastic there was enough clearance for the servo horn and ball cup without having to alter the ball cup at all.

[DCM]

The manual is pants, I must admit.... Liking the car though

[frogger]

Originally Posted by DCM

The manual is pants, I must admit.... Liking the car though

+1 they could do a better job of separating the rear and mid motor build steps. Also could do with a few more detailed descriptions when fitting parts that pertain to car setup.

Mine will get it's first run on Saturday at Ardent but so far the living room floor testing has been positive.

Also liking all the useful setup info on this thread by Old Dog, Reevsey and the rest.

[pugboy]

Originally Posted by jampat2004

i also had the issue with binding on the steering rack there was a very small burr on the fixed part of the rack which i removed with a small needle file and is now free.
i am also using a 1251 low profile i found by just slightly altering the underside of the bulkhead ie removeing a bit of the plastic there was enough clearance for the servo horn and ball cup without having to alter the ball cup at all.

That's great thanks, I'll get the rack out and have a look. What spacers are you running on servo as mine hits the servo just before reaching full right lock. Could possibly unwind the servo link one or two turns and see if I can make it work that way.

Ditto previous comment, thanks everyone for all your comments and advice. Looks like losi forum is back buzzing again, long may it continue

[DaveG28]

Gonna hijack this thread as all this camber link stuff is what I have been looking at on another car, hopefully these questions being answered will help people on here too!!

1. If you raise or lower both inner/outer camber links on front, keeping same angle but say moving the whole link higher, what effect does this have? Same question for the rear?

2. If you create a greater angle to the front camber link (either lower inner or raise outer), is it initial grip this helps or grip through the corner? Is it grippier but more on a knife edge? Again same question for the rear?

3. If after playing about with camber links you've introduced a tendency to roll if you land off jumps not totally flat (so a jump into a corner), what is the best way to offset this problem?

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Originally Posted by Reevsey

Now last bit is the hole in the hub will also have an effect on the way the car enters the turn, i can't remeber which way but it will either enter the turn harder or not so guess i need to do some work to clarify that one

Further out on the hub = more rotation - i.e it will feel like it is turning harder.
Moving the hub position inward will (IMO) give you more traction in the latter parts of the turn.

Worth playing with for sure

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

Gonna hijack this thread as all this camber link stuff is what I have been looking at on another car, hopefully these questions being answered will help people on here too!!

1. If you raise or lower both inner/outer camber links on front, keeping same angle but say moving the whole link higher, what effect does this have? Same question for the rear?

2. If you create a greater angle to the front camber link (either lower inner or raise outer), is it initial grip this helps or grip through the corner? Is it grippier but more on a knife edge? Again same question for the rear?

3. If after playing about with camber links you've introduced a tendency to roll if you land off jumps not totally flat (so a jump into a corner), what is the best way to offset this problem?

Leading questions Dave - but here goes. Disclaimer time first - these are my opinions based on my somewhat sketchy understanding of things. They may not be correct - but they're here in all good faith for you...

Firstly I'd say that the effects front or rear will be similar but obviously working at that end of the car instead of the other.

1. Lowering both ball studs on the inner and outer together and keeping the length and angles the same makes the car more edgy at the limit of adhesion - although I would say that it feels as if there is more grip until that limit is reached. Raising has the reverse.

2. Lowering the inner ballstud or raising the outer (i.e. creating more of an angle) will increase the initial grip at the expense of grip through the latter parts of the turn. I would say it is more edgy on the way in for sure - but will wash out a little more on the way out or it will break away more violently.

3. Sounds like you want to reduce sidebite - so I would raise the ball studs on the inner and make the links more parallel. As an aside to this, I almost always remove the outer row of spikes on the rear Schumacher mini spike tyres to help alleviate my poor jumping and reduce the side bite in adverse camber situations. Might be worth a go?

I've tried to avoid mentioning the dreaded roll centre - because for one, I don't know enough about suspension dynamics and for another, I've no idea where the C of G lies in the vertical plane so I don't know if the leverages are increasing or reducing. What I've tried to do is answer it based on how I think it feels on the track. But TBH, so much is going on in the corner that it's hard sometimes to isolate which end is being the predominant one and whether or not the problem actually lies at the other end.