Michael Schumacher penalised

[RudeTony]

Schumacher is NOT hungry anymore lets say like Lewis is and I actually think the same for Button but not as much.
You got to want it in any sportand if you want it and want it bad enough then and only then it might just happen.
He wanted it then, now with so so many millions - no way!!

Even 'finger' Vettel is hungry the ugly git

[bodgit]

Only one thing would convince me now as to who is the better driver. Stick them all in GP2 for a race while the break is on. Same engines, chassis, tyres no advantage just a race of pure skill winner is the best driver full stop.
Anyone know Bernies number to put it to him, GP2 was his idea initially was,nt it?
A race of that type could be huge for the sport.

[Nick Goodall]

Originally Posted by bodgit

Only one thing would convince me now as to who is the better driver. Stick them all in GP2 for a race while the break is on. Same engines, chassis, tyres no advantage just a race of pure skill winner is the best driver full stop.
Anyone know Bernies number to put it to him, GP2 was his idea initially was,nt it?
A race of that type could be huge for the sport.

That would be amazing!!!

In fact, thinking about it Schumacher's speed in a Kart gives some clue of his natural talent, only the top drivers are quick in Karts and he's still competitve when he jumps in one.

[PTRU]

7 WC with the same design team

Rory
Ross
Willam

now only Ross is with him.
uuummmm?????

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by Nick Goodall

Yeah but that's because Michael was there winning the other 7 titles so how could they have managed more if they weren't simply as gifted as him? I don't believe any non-Great driver could win 7 titles in any top sport - I'm not saying i think he's the best, i just find it hard to understand how people can't see him as a great driver? Fair enough he's struggling now, but so is everyone outside of the Ferrari's, Red Bulls & Mclarens - If Micahel was at Mclaren and shadowing Lewis the same way Button is, people would be slating him saying Lewis is proving how past it Michael is etc, but because it's Button people just say they have different styles

Good point - what is the definition of greatness?

As given to me - it's not what you've done, but what you've left behind. Fangio, Clark, Moss raised the game. They left behind techniques behind the wheel that were copied. Stewart raised the game by leaving behind a business approach to ones F1 career, and the focus on safety. Prost left behind the notion of winning a race at the slowest possible speed. Senna left behind levels of car control that allowed him to beat others, cadence acceleration, and levels of fitness that others had to copy. Schumacher has left behind a bunch of numbers to be beaten - but so did every one of the others mentioned above.

If you ask for greatness in any other walk of life, you will always find people who left behind something that changed the game, the perception of their professional discipline, or the way in which things were done for ever after. Newton, Einstein, Shankley, Wenger, Lord Hanson, Arkwright, Brunell, the list goes on. There were thousands of scientists, managers, industrialists, engineers who successfully made better 'numbers' than those mentioned, but none changed the game and left a legacy like those guys.

On which basis, for me, Schumacher is not great, just successful.

[matdodd]

very well put

[nicefrog]

Originally Posted by bodgit

Only one thing would convince me now as to who is the better driver. Stick them all in GP2 for a race while the break is on. Same engines, chassis, tyres no advantage just a race of pure skill winner is the best driver full stop.
Anyone know Bernies number to put it to him, GP2 was his idea initially was,nt it?
A race of that type could be huge for the sport.

Have you seen the race of champions? that they hold each year, drivers from all different motorsports completing is various cars so it's all fair and square, Team Germany which is Michael Schumacher and Sebastian Vettel have won the last 3 years in a row, last year Schumacher was beaten in the final by Mattias Ekström. He's been highly successful over the years in that competition. Like someone else said, he's still one of the best kart drivers around too. No one on this forum would be able to make the cut in F1 even driving redbull anyway so we need some more respect for such talented people

[peetbee]

Originally Posted by matdodd

very well put

+1

[SHY]

Originally Posted by matdodd

very well put

Indeed!

[Nick Goodall]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

Good point - what is the definition of greatness?

As given to me - it's not what you've done, but what you've left behind. Fangio, Clark, Moss raised the game. They left behind techniques behind the wheel that were copied. Stewart raised the game by leaving behind a business approach to ones F1 career, and the focus on safety. Prost left behind the notion of winning a race at the slowest possible speed. Senna left behind levels of car control that allowed him to beat others, cadence acceleration, and levels of fitness that others had to copy. Schumacher has left behind a bunch of numbers to be beaten - but so did every one of the others mentioned above.

I know what you're saying, but i think the modern Era of F1 those type of things will never be left for others to follow or copy - It's become such a technical precise art that there's only 10ths between the top guys, and that's all you need to make a difference that or getting the perfect strategy where others fail... Michael has been a master of this, and not forgetting racing in Wet conditions....

I think Michael will be the only benchmark in the next few years for people to try and compare to - so what if that is just a bunch of numbers, it's unlikely for me that you'll ever get anything else now in this era.... and what an impressive set of numbers it is! (One i don't think will be beaten)

The cars are too fast, and have too much grip to see amazing control where people are power-sliding and gaining time, or trying amazing techniques as the cars can only really be driven one way, and it's who can drag the last few 10ths out of it...... F1 has evolved soooo much since the days of Clark, Moss, Hill, Stewart and Co, that it's really impossible to compare to that now - the sport (or motor racing in general) just isn't like that any more - there's not much of a safety risk for one thing

[SlowOne]

Get your point, but...

You're looking back over the last five years or so from your post. Those guys go back the last 60 years!! For those 60 years I've picked four or five things - or one every 10 years or so. Just because it hasn't happened for the last five or ten years, doesn't mean it is not going to happen again.

As for it all being so close - in qualifying may be. In the race we have just witnessed a couple of races where the winner lapped everyone up to the top ten which, even if you discount the bottom six, is a BIG gap. Where the points count, the gap is a big today as it ever has been over the last 60 years - and there are no points for qualifying!!

The advantage of the definition I was given of greatness is that it does not rely on comparison, it relies on absolutes. It's a good game, and it's great that we all differ, and have the wit and imagination to reason our corner.

Oh, and at the risk of getting the Schui guys back in, there is one safety risk we can improve - get Schumacher off the track!!

(Puts on tin hat and runs away.... )

[Nick Goodall]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

Get your point, but...

You're looking back over the last five years or so from your post. Those guys go back the last 60 years!! For those 60 years I've picked four or five things - or one every 10 years or so. Just because it hasn't happened for the last five or ten years, doesn't mean it is not going to happen again.

As for it all being so close - in qualifying may be. In the race we have just witnessed a couple of races where the winner lapped everyone up to the top ten which, even if you discount the bottom six, is a BIG gap. Where the points count, the gap is a big today as it ever has been over the last 60 years - and there are no points for qualifying!!

The advantage of the definition I was given of greatness is that it does not rely on comparison, it relies on absolutes. It's a good game, and it's great that we all differ, and have the wit and imagination to reason our corner.

Oh, and at the risk of getting the Schui guys back in, there is one safety risk we can improve - get Schumacher off the track!!

(Puts on tin hat and runs away.... )

Haha good point, i'd also like to see the Virgin & HRT cars banned from a safety point of view too

I wouldn't say i'm looking back 5 years, more like 15-20 even, since the high downforce wings, and all the safety features came in - Mainly from 1994 i suppose but the cars since then have just become so good, it's rare to even see one get out of shape like the old days..... Even since they took away T/C the cars are still generating enough grip to pretty much nail the right pedal out of corners.

I think wet conditions are probably the only time we can really see a driver make up for a poor car, the likes of Suttil, Hamilton & Vettel have all been good at that over the past 3-4 years, and Schumacher was always pretty incredible to watch in the rain, especially when he lapped everyone up to 3rd in Spain

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

(Puts on tin hat and runs away.... )

Ventured back again, but still have tin hat on...

Have you seen this?

"Seven-time world champion Michael Schumacher has blamed his poor form in his Formula 1 comeback season on his Mercedes car. He said: "The car is not at all in harmony with the tyres, or also with us as the drivers." "
Source - http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=382311

Whine, moan, carp... Yeah, and that bad car has managed 38 points for you and 94 for your team mate. I don't remember Keke Rosburg complaining about his car when, at McLaren, he had to drive a car built for (understeerer) Prost instead of (oversteerer) Rosburg, or Lauda moaning about the McLaren he came back to drive to his third title, or... Unprofessional...

Great my a**e.

[telboy]

I like how he says "..'us' as the drivers"!

I don't see Rosberg complaining that the car doesn't suit him or the tyres.

[bodgit]

I read somewhere that this years car was built around Jenson,s preferances. So basically Schumacher is saying he cant drive Jensons car and thats why he is not winning.
Back in the days when teams were allowed a spare car they could jump into halfway through a race if needed, can anyone remember if the ferrari spare was always set up for Schui. I seem to recall it was set up for alternative drivers each race which if so why if he used to jump into another drivers set up in the past can he not do it now. He has had time enough to dial it into his own style.

[Nick Goodall]

Originally Posted by telboy

I like how he says "..'us' as the drivers"!

I don't see Rosberg complaining that the car doesn't suit him or the tyres.

I don't know actually, i bet if you asked Rosberg after most races he'd agree the car really isn't good enough - It's certainly not the championship contending car that Brawn had last year, and i think that's what he thought he'd be getting to drive this year! He's not actually made much of a step forward from Williams, when he must have thought he'd have a car good enough to challenge for wins this year?

I know Michaels got way less points, but if you look at some of the failures he's had, and penalties such as Monaco it's not all entirely down to him.

[SHY]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85983

Well, Schumi's for sure sticking his neck out!

I'd rather keep my mouth shut and try to actually show some good results first...

Oh yeah, with their 2011 car and Pirelli tyres he's gonna beat Rosberg in every race + be on the podium... dream on old dog!