EFRA AGM - any feedback?

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

This would be the advantage of having lipo stick and lipo saddle packs being the same overall dimension, as in the new rules.
Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd, so you end up buying a lipo stick pack for 2wd and a lipo saddle pack for 4wd if the next 2wd buggies are designed around a 139mm lipo pack length.

Playing devils advocate here...

The problem here isn't the dimensions, SMC and Maxamps make packs that fit inside the rules and are legal if they end up on the EB list. The problem is that the most popular saddle pack around at the moment, the Trakpower, is too big. Now Trakpower and the other manufacturers have dimensions to work to they can produce packs that fit, the only problem is whether everyone considers we should bend the rules to fit one particular battery pack like ROAR has done. Then if we allow the Trakpower because it is already available what about the Maxamps 6000mah which has also been around for some time but is over the capacity limit?

Give it a year and this won't be a problem as there should be plenty of choice that fits the rules, there might be many more packs around by next April. No one can say right now whether the Trakpowers will be allowed or not, as a transitional year the EB might approve them, and there is of course the question if you are running at the nationals or regionals will you still be using this years lipos or will you be buying new lipo packs ready for the new season anyway?

Erm, if SMC and Maxamps fit the dimensions, why are ROAR still allowing the trakpower? I thought it was due to lack of alternatives!? So there are correct size/regulation meeting saddles already?? Result if so!

Oh, and understand the other guys point about waiting and seeing for a month or two, but I'd rather not wait till April to find out what battery type and charger etc I need to run!

[bigred5765]

lots and lots of chargers that will do both, ok may be dont wait till april to buy but there should be a list out soon, and it will grow and grow until the cut of date in april,

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

This would be the advantage of having lipo stick and lipo saddle packs being the same overall dimension, as in the new rules.
Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd, so you end up buying a lipo stick pack for 2wd and a lipo saddle pack for 4wd if the next 2wd buggies are designed around a 139mm lipo pack length.

Playing devils advocate here...

The problem here isn't the dimensions, SMC and Maxamps make packs that fit inside the rules and are legal if they end up on the EB list. The problem is that the most popular saddle pack around at the moment, the Trakpower, is too big. Now Trakpower and the other manufacturers have dimensions to work to they can produce packs that fit, the only problem is whether everyone considers we should bend the rules to fit one particular battery pack like ROAR has done. Then if we allow the Trakpower because it is already available what about the Maxamps 6000mah which has also been around for some time but is over the capacity limit?

Give it a year and this won't be a problem as there should be plenty of choice that fits the rules, there might be many more packs around by next April. No one can say right now whether the Trakpowers will be allowed or not, as a transitional year the EB might approve them, and there is of course the question if you are running at the nationals or regionals will you still be using this years lipos or will you be buying new lipo packs ready for the new season anyway?

true they are available, but the wiring is external to the dimensions, apart from the jump lead trakpowers are all internal and far harder to short out compared to those with external wiring, trakpowers are also less mah than those you mention, so the larger case can hardly be called an unfair advantage in performance

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by Ted Maul

A 20c 5000mah 7.4v lipo shaped like a banana is no better or worse than the trakpower or orion equivalent, but people wont use it because its stupid.

If a banana shaped lipo pack had a performance advantage racers would do whatever it takes to fit it into the car.

Look at nimhs, IB4200s had a small performance advantage over other makes, even though they had the lifespan of a mayfly, yet everyone used them and they gave all nimhs a bad reputation. Now they have been banned due to being oversize racers are finding there are better 4600mah alternatives that don't need constant maintenance, hold their charge, and are as reliable as 3300s used to be.

[RogerM]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

If a banana shaped lipo pack had a performance advantage racers would do whatever it takes to fit it into the car.

Look at nimhs, IB4200s had a small performance advantage over other makes, even though they had the lifespan of a mayfly, yet everyone used them and they gave all nimhs a bad reputation. Now they have been banned due to being oversize racers are finding there are better 4600mah alternatives that don't need constant maintenance, hold their charge, and are as reliable as 3300s used to be.

On the money mate!!

My E4500 packs haven't been touched for 2 weeks and only took 600mAhs this evening to peak (storage charge check) and before that they had gone 2 months without dropping much.


Playing devils advocate here,

assuming there are packs available that fit the dimentions quoted in the rules what is the problem?

Surely you either buy those packs, a car that takes sticks (ZX5-SP / Cat SX / Durga probably others), or run NiMhs.
How is this different from this year where we had to buy new cells in order to do the nationals if we had IB4200s? My IBs were only 4 months old and still going strong but I wanted to race at the nationals so bought E4500s as did many, many others!


I am hoping that somebody comes on here and explains why the dimension thing is a problem as I really don't understand!!
Sub C-cells are 23mm dia. so that only leaves 1mm for second heatshrink and glue to be inside the 139mm length! To me the regs read as follows

"LiPo packs have to fit into a car designed to run with the current norm of 6 sub-c cells so nobody has to buy a new car just to run the LiPos"

Have I intepreted the dimention rules incorrectly???


I understand why people who have the trakpower saddles feel a little hard done buy but I really can not see any difference to those people who had to buy new cells around Xmas07 or not race for 4 months until the 08 cells were legal!!!

[Cockerill]

Just wondering if anyone had actually seen a solid set of spec's from EFRA/BRCA/EB yet? If so care to give me a link?

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by RogerM

On the money mate!!

My E4500 packs haven't been touched for 2 weeks and only took 600mAhs this evening to peak (storage charge check) and before that they had gone 2 months without dropping much.


Playing devils advocate here,

assuming there are packs available that fit the dimentions quoted in the rules what is the problem?

Surely you either buy those packs, a car that takes sticks (ZX5-SP / Cat SX / Durga probably others), or run NiMhs.
How is this different from this year where we had to buy new cells in order to do the nationals if we had IB4200s? My IBs were only 4 months old and still going strong but I wanted to race at the nationals so bought E4500s as did many, many others!


I am hoping that somebody comes on here and explains why the dimension thing is a problem as I really don't understand!!
Sub C-cells are 23mm dia. so that only leaves 1mm for second heatshrink and glue to be inside the 139mm length! To me the regs read as follows

"LiPo packs have to fit into a car designed to run with the current norm of 6 sub-c cells so nobody has to buy a new car just to run the LiPos"

Have I intepreted the dimention rules incorrectly???


I understand why people who have the trakpower saddles feel a little hard done buy but I really can not see any difference to those people who had to buy new cells around Xmas07 or not race for 4 months until the 08 cells were legal!!!

I bought Trakpower without researching enough whether there were other options. Hopefully some more will go on a list soon!! If not will run Nimh. I agree its my lookout, and I knowingly took the risk when buying. I am not complaining about being caught out this way!

I am in favour of dimension rules myself, I think it should be ok to try and fit them in most current cars. The actual dimension itself seems odd though, as the Trakpower size fits most things (except maybe pred's?). The bit that worries me is that we have a resurgent 4wd class and it would be a shame to put a dampener on it by having rules which effectively favour a few cars. By which I mean I am guessing most people will run Lipo and whatever car it goes in, not keep running nimh. I could be wrong on that I guess!!

Maybe its all a Schu conspiracy!!!

As an aside but related topic, which cars will run stick packs? The Cat yes, ZX5 SP yes, Durga too? Sure Old Timer has mentioned a way of getting them in an S4 too, and I may have read someone got one in an X5? Anyone managed it in a B44/Bx/501X??

With the ZX-5, I thought I'd read they were runnng the FS or something for the team, isn't that saddle formation? Wonder if they'll use the SP now!

[bigred5765]

Originally Posted by RogerM

On the money mate!!

My E4500 packs haven't been touched for 2 weeks and only took 600mAhs this evening to peak (storage charge check) and before that they had gone 2 months without dropping much.


Playing devils advocate here,

assuming there are packs available that fit the dimentions quoted in the rules what is the problem?

Surely you either buy those packs, a car that takes sticks (ZX5-SP / Cat SX / Durga probably others), or run NiMhs.
How is this different from this year where we had to buy new cells in order to do the nationals if we had IB4200s? My IBs were only 4 months old and still going strong but I wanted to race at the nationals so bought E4500s as did many, many others!


I am hoping that somebody comes on here and explains why the dimension thing is a problem as I really don't understand!!
Sub C-cells are 23mm dia. so that only leaves 1mm for second heatshrink and glue to be inside the 139mm length! To me the regs read as follows
"LiPo packs have to fit into a car designed to run with the current norm of 6 sub-c cells so nobody has to buy a new car just to run the LiPos"

Have I intepreted the dimention rules incorrectly???


I understand why people who have the trakpower saddles feel a little hard done buy but I really can not see any difference to those people who had to buy new cells around Xmas07 or not race for 4 months until the 08 cells were legal!!!

from what i can under stand, the dimensions are there because of little johnny that goes and buys a brand new b44 or yokomo etc saddle pack car,and then buys lipos to big to fit so has to take a chain saw/dremmel to it to make them fit,not a happy johnny me thinks,

[bigred5765]

Originally Posted by Cockerill

Just wondering if anyone had actually seen a solid set of spec's from EFRA/BRCA/EB yet? If so care to give me a link?

i was thinking the same thing tom

[dan_kitty]

I do see the point of the dimension rule, but surely saddle pack cars are a specialist bit of kit that "little johnny" wouldnt buy, as you cant openly buy pre-made saddle nimh race packs with a tamiya conector from the high street.

Little johnny would either have to organize a model shop to make them up for him or go and buy a soldering iron, solder, bars, wire and some cream for burnt fingers

just a thought

[bigred5765]

nope I'm pretty sure that kyosho and yokomo make saddle pack cars aimed at the bottom end and even rtr side of the market, and saddle packs can be bought in lipo and nimh packs from most model shop pre built over the counter,the fact still remains people are doing what they did last year and shouting before the list even appears, and buying first then wondering why there packs aren't legal,

[racingdwarf]

It would seem the brca and others would take two months working out if they would like suger in there tea or not! This is a real turn off for 10th,batterys last season, lipos this season starting to wonder if I should go back to rallyx.

Need new batterys NOW, thought 3200 trackpower lipos, cheep enough, enough power for what I do, hard case,fit in my 2wd and 4wd cars no probs and low ish cappacity thus must be a safe bet to be legal next year......must be a safe bet........but oh no. Come on boys we are racing toy cars ,does it have to be this hard

Rant over

[SHY]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd

That's not correct, they fit just fine, even the 4800s. See http://www.ymr.no/10orTip1.htm

Originally Posted by Cockerill

Just wondering if anyone had actually seen a solid set of spec's from EFRA/BRCA/EB yet? If so care to give me a link?

http://www.motorsportforbundet.no/fi...453E1AB%7D.pdf

[super__dan]

Originally Posted by racingdwarf

It would seem the brca and others would take two months working out if they would like suger in there tea or not!

I think that's in credably harsh and a massive uderestimation of the time and effort that a lot of people put into running our hobby unpaid

To note, though the X5 was never designed to take stick lipo, it currantly can be home converted very easily and shortly will be able to be converted VERY easily by way of a simple retaining method. So it's not on the list of ones that take it with no mods but on a list of fit with very simple mods (yes some dremmel action )

[c0sie]

Originally Posted by super__dan

I think that's in credably harsh and a massive uderestimation of the time and effort that a lot of people put into running our hobby unpaid

As Chair of another section I totally agree.

You might wanna offer your soul up at the next AGM and get onto the Committee. Anyone who thinks its an easy ride is sadly very much mistaken.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by bigred5765

from what i can under stand, the dimensions are there because of little johnny that goes and buys a brand new b44 or yokomo etc saddle pack car,and then buys lipos to big to fit so has to take a chain saw/dremmel to it to make them fit,not a happy johnny me thinks,

they fit in a b44 no mods mneed and unless you have tried em in the rest how can you say that?

Originally Posted by bigred5765

nope I'm pretty sure that kyosho and yokomo make saddle pack cars aimed at the bottom end and even rtr side of the market, and saddle packs can be bought in lipo and nimh packs from most model shop pre built over the counter,the fact still remains people are doing what they did last year and shouting before the list even appears, and buying first then wondering why there packs aren't legal,

wonder if you would say that if you were sponsored by trakpower or centre point

[_sleigh_]

http://www.motorsportforbundet.no/fi...453E1AB%7D.pdf

Having quickly read through those minutes it seems ammendments to the proposal were raised and voted on at the EFRA meeting. So if the dimensions of saddles were such an issue, why was that not raised and ammended? As you can see, other details of the specification were ammended.

Height is now 25mm (additional chassis protrusions are allowed)
Maximum capacity is now 5500mAh
Maximum charging voltage isnow 8.40v

There were plenty of national representatives at the meeting to raise any concerns with other elements of the proposal if they felt the need. There were also manufacturing representatives there too.

[SHY]

The agendas are long and time short, so there's seldom much spare time for long discussions. That's why it's so important to have the proposals complete with all technicalities. And rather have different ones so it's a matter of picking the preferred one.

I've tried to contact FlightPower in order to get a statement from them (no one present right now). I'm quite certain that at this point in time it's not technically possible to make saddles any shorter. I'll be back once I get in touch with them.

A NiMH cell is 23mm thick. 3x that is 69mm.

Trakpower saddles are:
4800 mAh: 71mm
3200 mAh: 70mm

You can as I've pointed out make narrower packs, but then you'll have to use less capacity cells. Which then in turn would have to bee stacked on top (coupled in parallel) = too high. So in order to make a legal one now it would be of very low capacity. Hence not very interesting for most racers.

I've once opened up a flight pack. The "ears" for soldering are VERY small & thin, so there's really nothing you can do to reduce the size. The only thing would be to drop the hard casing, but that would be dangerous.

We can of course sit on our hands and wait for #2 generation LiPo batteries... But we have these now, and they work great! Let's stop fiddling around and get racing with them!

[mark christopher]

shy should you qoute dimesnions please get em the right way round!!!!
you may want to check here www.trakpower.com

at this moment in time you wont get a statement from trakpower,
i am in contact with them and they are looking into the situation,and talking with relative parties. but as i said there is at the moment in time no official statement

[SHY]

TrakPowerSaddle.jpg
(from their website)

For once I agree, it's logical that the 3200 ones are narrower (didn't measure myself). I'll double check at home!

Tell TrakPower to update their web then next time you speak to them!