Old X6

[grelland]

yes but I still would claim that if you ask a Chinese manufacturer to manufacture a good quality product, he will do that, but if you ask him to make an inexpensive product he will do that.... It comes back to the fact that you get what you pay for, no matter where the thing is made...

[Spencer Mulcahy]

I asked the question for this thread not to upset people but for my information as I want to run the old car as I have not had this car for very long and I can not afford what I will need to update to the squared. All the upgrades that have happened over the past few years on this car have mounted up to alot of money. At first you needed a B4 donnor car £150 then the convertion £130 this was a three gearbox version then you needed losi shocks on it £40 to £60. Then the four gear conversion came out to upgrade to this was £50 if you wanted to be competative the e-speed parts arrived camber link mod £16 and the motor plate support £12.50 then the losi axels £12.
So now you have spent around £400 pounds to get your car running to how you want and it is going to be discontinued unless you buy the X6 squared upgrade for another £140 so that is standing you at £550.
I think Chaz and Paul have done a fantastic job with the car and they both seem like top blokes but the above is alot of money in my book when you could have bought the fastest car on the planet (not in my hands) six years ago and it would still be just as fast with no upgrades.
I dont want to affend people or anybody related to X-factory but to dicontinue the old car has made me look elswhere for my 2wd.

Spen

[phil c]

Originally Posted by Spencer Mulcahy

I asked the question for this thread not to upset people but for my information as I want to run the old car as I have not had this car for very long and I can not afford what I will need to update to the squared. All the upgrades that have happened over the past few years on this car have mounted up to alot of money. At first you needed a B4 donnor car £150 then the convertion £130 this was a three gearbox version then you needed losi shocks on it £40 to £60. Then the four gear conversion came out to upgrade to this was £50 if you wanted to be competative the e-speed parts arrived camber link mod £16 and the motor plate support £12.50 then the losi axels £12.
So now you have spent around £400 pounds to get your car running to how you want and it is going to be discontinued unless you buy the X6 squared upgrade for another £140 so that is standing you at £550.
I think Chaz and Paul have done a fantastic job with the car and they both seem like top blokes but the above is alot of money in my book when you could have bought the fastest car on the planet (not in my hands) six years ago and it would still be just as fast with no upgrades.
I dont want to affend people or anybody related to X-factory but to dicontinue the old car has made me look elswhere for my 2wd.

Spen

i agree completley , and have just sold mine

[Darren Boyle]

Spencer (and now Phil....) You have gone to a lot of trouble in your post, which I for one representing X-factory here in the UK appreciate, but I will add to your comments if I may.

You have "added" up all the parts "you" have spent to keep your car rolling along at the very latest and current spec, you describe buying the early X6 3 gear, upgrading etc etc. The 3 gear is 3 (nearly 4) years old. In four seasons "any" of the other manufacturer would most likely also have released several new releases of their car (examples - in four years with a Yokomo 4wd you would of had a MR4BCS, a MR4BX and now a BMAX4, 3 WHOLE cars, with Losi in 2wd you would of had a Losi XXXBK2 and a XXXCR, the list goes on Kyosho 3 4wd's in 4 years, new back end for the Kyosho, TTech several new version sin the time scale, and even the spec of the AE B4 has come though changes, which if you likewise wanted to stay up to date with your model would also cost you money to keep up with times with upgrading etc)

We know the basic design of the B4 is good and popular, this is why we based our car on it. It has had great success, but for our tracks and conditions we firmly believe (we know) the X6 gives it more!!

Dont fall into the PR trap that if somthing new comes out you "have" to have it, you get it because you "want" it or deep down believe that it will make you quicker. To be honest LOSI shocks for one are NOT "needed" but as a team we "prefer" them and hence we use them on both of our cars (one already comes with them - X5) but to add them into the "justified cost of your car is not really true since they are a "must want" and NOT a "must have"

On your list are lots are purchases, totaling £400 as you say, but you have to make some allowance for the amount of equipment also that you own and the amount that you could happily sell off to recover some funds back. For instance the B4 you started with would leave around £100+ worth of (if new/unused) stuff if you didnt use the shocks too (since you have added the Losi ones), when you upgrade to 4 gear, you had lots of 3 gear stuff left etc etc. All of a sudden your 3 year old car (which has had a few "facelifts" along the way now stands you in at a lot less than than £300 which does include "optional parts" (Espeed bits, Losi shocks) that you have chosen to fit) these self same optional parts are avialable for every other make of car on the planet too!!!

Th extra cost for our "2009" spec car - the Squared is still FAR less than buying ANY other new 2wd on the market today (B4 FT £180 at the moment - rumoured to be going up once more, RB5 now £270, XXXCR £245 - these are all the latest RRP's)

My other point is your obviuos dissappointment in the fact we have discontinued the old car and parts, I would like to add two points here.
1. When we use the the word "discontinue" we mean "we will not be MAKING any more" it does not mean no more are available to buy straight away, As has been said we still have good stocks of ALL original X6 parts here in the UK (hell, we STILL have spares for the 3 gear car too!!!!) plus Chazz still has several spares there in the USA too. If you really dont want to upgrade your car you dont "have" to, not yet and probably not for a long time to come. Besides which if you break a wishbone and need to buy them, then get the new ones and upgrade that one little part of the car, likewise with the chassis, if you break that (or nosepiece) buy the new one at that oppurtunity to do so.
2. Most manufacturers do dismantle "production" of old parts for a car when it is obsolete, this is just nromal practise, they often dont tell you, but we believe in being honest and have marked all "discontinued products" online so the public know the full story on them.

I hope you understand a little more now, I am sure that none of you want us to stand still and make no ongoing improvemnets to our products!!! If you have any more concerns or questions then make sure to let us all know, but hopefully you can understand that we always want to improve our product and make it the best that we can and the best that is available on the market, in the X6 Squared we believe it is an improvemnt in quality, simplicity, finish and refinement but as Chazz has already said we are NOT saying it will make you any faster or reliable, we are NOT telling you you really have to buy one, you would only get one because you WANT one, just the same as buying any other new car on the market.....

HTH, Darren

[GRIFF55]

One quick question on the new conversion. Will the longer axles come in the conversion?
Sorry if this is the wrong thread.

Cheers

[Lee]

I can confirm what Darren has said in the last chapter.

I have just finished running the X6 squared today in the 24 hour race and to be honest, i could have been driving my own personal X6, it really didn't feel any different to drive once we had got the weight distribution sorted.

It really is evolution rather than revolution. The car has just been refined.

I wouldn't jump ship, you really will regret it.

[Darren Boyle]

Grelland, if you get a Chinese company to make a product of the same quality it tens to cost about the same, the main reason why people move production there is to save money, but as a whole the quality does tend to suffer, no PR BS here mate

To agree with Chazz's statement about the bits that break on our car ebing the AE, sadly it is true, the "vast" majority of all breakages on our X6 casr are always the parts that are made form AE and since the TT group have owned them and moved production to China there has been a "noticable drop" in quality as noticed by nearly every racer who runs a B4 or X6.

Nobody at X-Factory or representing X-factory is talking down AE, without them as you say our car is nothing, I am also prepared to agree that their parts form a lot of the "front" of our car (which is bound to hit more things and break more parts - agreed) we are just stating which is a fact that WE put a lot of effort into our parts to make tham as durable as can be and when you see one of our cars break it is 99 times out of 100 an AE part which has broke. We are proud of our quality and believe that if WE moved production to China to make the products cheaper it would be at the sacrifice of quality (as has been proven with the latest batch of Losi and AE parts - from China, they just plain and simnple arent as good) which is somthing we are not prepared to do.

I agree with you also 100% about your statemnt "Made in the USA", NO it does not GUARRENTEE quality, YES many parts still made in the USA are POOR and YES the "Made in USA" tag does not wash at all here in Europe, BUT by our parts being "Made in the USA" it gives us full control over them, a chance to liase fully with the tooling companies and injection moulding people, witness production first hand and make changes along the way if we feel the need to, to maintian the high standards I am talking about.

Now I hope you dont consider my comments as PR BS (LOL) and I think my best defence is the proof in the quality of our parts out there today on thousands of our converted cars. It is very rare that we get complaints on our parts and very rare we hear stories from customers who broke blaming an X part for this, my proof is in the hands of the satisfied public

Best Wishes,

Darren

[Spencer Mulcahy]

As I said I dont want to upset anyone Darren but I did under price the B4 in my sums and I think the Losi shocks are a must I know as I ran mine with AE shocks all last year and I was told every outing to get Losi shocks from other X6 drivers I under priced these as well. Same with the E-speed parts they are a must for the car to go as well as others or the team drivers wouldnt run them.
Yes other teams have changed cars a few times in that period but that is because those cars didnt work and they needed changing where the X6 has always worked and when they do bring a new car out you can sell a complete car which is worth more than just parts.

[DaveG28]

Originally Posted by DMS Racing

Th extra cost for our "2009" spec car - the Squared is still FAR less than buying ANY other new 2wd on the market today (B4 FT £180 at the moment - rumoured to be going up once more, RB5 now £270, XXXCR £245 - these are all the latest RRP's)

Play fair though guys, thats not really a comparison, you also need a b4 or x6 first before your conversion!!

Now, assuming buying a second hand b4 for it is fine, yeah you'd still be cheaper than the RB5 I guess (will the rb5 SP be more again?), maybe the Losi too, so not claiming your dead expensive, just saying its not quite that clear cut!

If the b4 bits you can sell on are over £100 worth I was d***ed as well, got no where near that for chassis/shocks/gearbox case/bodyshell!! even if you could get that though still makes the x6 squared @£220 doesn't it (basing everything on "new" admittedly!)?

Anyway, this long rambling post is just to say there's not that much difference in prices!!

As for the car change, not many manufacturers warn of that (Rb5SP?) so X factory are no worse than most!! To plug an ex maker, Atomic Carbon did though, top guy, asked me if I wanted to cancel my order when he decided to stop making them!!

[Darren Boyle]

Andy, no they wont, simple reason being not "everyone" uses them, so they are not "needed" in every kit, secondly, they are made for us by MIP and we wish to rely on as few outside manufactueres as possible for our converison so that if only one of them cannot supply it will not bring a halt to our production.

To add to Lee's comments, the lads have today finished the 24 hour race at York with an X6 Squared, which ran really well throghout and mixed it right until the near end with the 4wd buggies (and B4 from AE too)

From what I have been told, we had no faults at all in electronics (thankyou and well done to LRP) we broke several front wishbones and several servo horns as well a few routine gearbox rebuilds, but not a single X-factory made part failed on the car for the entire 24 hours.........

[Darren Boyle]

Spencer, you were bang on with the B4 price mate, £150 is what a B4 Team costs (FT is £190 RRP)

Losi shocks are widely used by many X6 owners, i am not doubting that, but they are NOT essential, they do also give you your AE ones to sell on (to deduct for the price, as I described)

E Speed hangers are fairly widely used but the T piece is just for added strength and added bling, again NOT essential. Team Drivers run them, so people see them and then buy them, the very same reason why any "bling" part is made and/or sold. Take trintiy blue alloy shock collars, definatly not needed but look at how many people ran/run them and yes the team drivers used those too.

Have to disagreee about selling a complete second hand car is the same as selling off new unused parts though. You can "relativley easily" get £100 back from a B4 when you buy a new one for a X6 donor (body/wing/decals, rear wishbones, rear pivot plate, rear pivot block, rear lower chassis, shocks (if you "are" using Losi ones), gearbox case, wing mounts, chassis, kit tyres, rear upper chassis, motor plate, gear cover, rear shock tower, battery strap, rear motor guard etc etc This lot new from a FT kit would cost £216 if brought new in packets and is easily sold at around 1/2 price when it is sold unused which brings in a return of over £100 on your kit purchase. The parts are easily sold due to the sheer number of B4's around the tracks over the years and anyone who does not belive me check out our old for sale thread for proof HERE -http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17530

So if the parts sold off as new fetch around £100+ what does a complete secong hand car fecth after a season??? (£100+ ish)....

Dave , when I said £140, the reply was addressed to Spencer, he stated that it would cost "him" another £140 to make his car up to date for this season, I simply stated that it was less then him buying an all new car. Sorry if it was confusing, but if you re-read it you will see this is what I meant.

I agree with you, we are never saying our car is cheap, far from it, but it is NOT as expensive as £400 if you are sensible on how you go about it as I have outlined. With current prices coming through at £220 ish we could well end up being cheap though

We have also "warned" of the new car, since we started making announcemnts that it was coming at Christmas time and it wont be here for a couple of weeks yet which will be Mid/Late February.

Fair play also to AC, but to be honest if any car was stopping being made altogether you would expect this to happen

[Spencer Mulcahy]

This is going to be my last post on the subject, for the new season I was going to replace all the bits on my car that are over 5 years old gears diffs front end parts bearings which is going to be over £50 then the price of the conversion on top which is to rich for me. My price for the B4 would be for the factory team as that is what most poeple would use to upgrade. I am not trying to upset people as I think it is probably the best car out there but for me I race for fun not to win(not good enough to win anything)and I cant afford to keep chucking money at it when the next upgrade comes out.

Au revoir Spen.

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Spen,
Afore ye go - Now I'm really confused.

I've no allegiance here nor axe to grind. Like you, I race because it's fun first and foremost. But it seems that you've become upset and - dare I say, are threatening to cut off you nose to spike your face.

I've seen the squared and the quality is unbelievably lush but why not simply rebuild your car and opt for the revised wishbones and tower - if you really feel you need something squared on your car at all? Non handed wishbones are great - especially for those on a budget and it's nice to see a manufacturer reducing the impact of having to carry loads of different spares. However, it seems as if most people (especially those who wish to use the team driver's set ups) may want to upgrade to the rear tower at the same time to keep the damping feel/geometry similar to the non-squared.
You've got the go faster goodies - you've got countless hours of experience with the chassis and you're about to abandon all this because you want - but can't afford the latest version?? That's the bit that doesn't make sense to me.

I want a 24inch imac - with a dual or quad core processor to replace may aging G5 - or an ipod touch because my ipod photo is now too fat but the bottom line is that they still do a darn good job for me - and when they NEED replacing, I'll replace them with whatever is current at the time - full in the knowledge that they too will become obsolete.

Change cars by all means if you want a change or fancy something different but don't do something hasty simply because what you've got is no longer the most current version.
The cult of the X has really reached new levels in recent months - and, as an early adopter, maybe you feel somewhat upset that all these newbies are profiting from the hard work and effort that you and countless other 3-gear owners have invested.

Don't forget also though that the 'family' offers one of the most active support forums on the planet and spares are superbly handled and easy to obtain nowadays (cue Darren).

Take a step back for a while - have a beer maybe and have a think...

Like I say - no axe to grind, no allegiance either. Try a different car if you fancy a change - it seems that the RB5 is a favorite at the moment - but don't do it out of spite or in resistance to change.

PS - If you are like me, then your X6 won't be any slower next time you take it out anyway - whether there's a squared, a cubic or whatever version

[Darren Boyle]

Kinda what I have been trying to say, but far better put and coming from someone like you Andy who is not "invloved " with X-Factory.....

[SHY]

Darren, I'd only wish we had at least one shop like yours here in Norway! Your commitment and service is on the borderline to madness!

But you and Chazz really should reconsider saying anything negative at all about other manufacturers. That's the first rule you learn in sales. Never do it! It always comes around... No matter what you're selling, always say that the other brands make great stuff! (Even if it IS a lie!) There is 0,0000% to gain on doing otherwise!!! And bragging about the competition also makes it natural to brag about your own stuff! And look back in time and compare the old cars with todays! Today's cars are top notch, all of them!

Let me do a quick explanation of the psychology behind it... I started my working life as a car salesman. When someone walks into your store they're obviously interested in buying cars that you sell. A natural question to ask the customer is what car(s) he has previously owned. And what other cars he's considering. If you say anything at all negative about one of the cars he's had or is considering buying your implying a lot of things:
-he's an idiot for choosing that car. And if he's had it for 10 years he's really...
-if he's been really satisfied with it he feels you're lying. And won't trust you...
-you give a first impression of being somewhat of a nagging negative person...
-he gets the feeling you're pissed because they're selling more than you...

So... K.I.S.S.! (Keep It Simple Stupid) - Be nice, always positive and give them a hell of a test drive! If they like you AND the car they simply buy it...

I've had X-Factory parts break on some tracks like you woldn't belive it, whilst AE and Losi cars were in one piece (not crashes, just driving). But I still highly recommend your cars & service! Why stick your heads so far out ?

And I 100% agree with Grelland! Don't blame the Chinese either! They make EXACTLY the quality you ask them to AND pay for! If the quality has gone down after moving production to Asia then it's because they've been asked to "make it cheaper" (actually a lot cheaper in that case, since production costs are lower in Asia). That being said I've not experienced any drop in the quality of AE parts, and I haven't heard any other guys around here say so either...

And we all know that times are hard. It's often a matter of moving production to Asia or going bankrupt... Take Serpent for instance, I know they've been struggling for a while. OTOH I've been to their production facilities in Holland. Neither was I impressed with the technology, speed or quality - even if it was NOT made in Asia. You still had to drill and heat parts to get a good fit. From my experience the best build quality, fit and durability I've experienced is Mugen Seiki (Japanese).

@Paul: Uptravel yes, that makes sense! It already has some SERIOUS downtravel!

@Chazz: Cool! I liked that answer...

[matt]

After reading this i still cant see why there is no upgrade kit for currant x6 owners. They did this for the X5 that used a lot of new parts.

[grelland]

Originally Posted by DMS Racing

Grelland, if you get a Chinese company to make a product of the same quality it tens to cost about the same, the main reason why people move production there is to save money, but as a whole the quality does tend to suffer, no PR BS here mate

To agree with Chazz's statement about the bits that break on our car ebing the AE, sadly it is true, the "vast" majority of all breakages on our X6 casr are always the parts that are made form AE and since the TT group have owned them and moved production to China there has been a "noticable drop" in quality as noticed by nearly every racer who runs a B4 or X6.

Nobody at X-Factory or representing X-factory is talking down AE, without them as you say our car is nothing, I am also prepared to agree that their parts form a lot of the "front" of our car (which is bound to hit more things and break more parts - agreed) we are just stating which is a fact that WE put a lot of effort into our parts to make tham as durable as can be and when you see one of our cars break it is 99 times out of 100 an AE part which has broke. We are proud of our quality and believe that if WE moved production to China to make the products cheaper it would be at the sacrifice of quality (as has been proven with the latest batch of Losi and AE parts - from China, they just plain and simnple arent as good) which is somthing we are not prepared to do.

I agree with you also 100% about your statemnt "Made in the USA", NO it does not GUARRENTEE quality, YES many parts still made in the USA are POOR and YES the "Made in USA" tag does not wash at all here in Europe, BUT by our parts being "Made in the USA" it gives us full control over them, a chance to liase fully with the tooling companies and injection moulding people, witness production first hand and make changes along the way if we feel the need to, to maintian the high standards I am talking about.

Now I hope you dont consider my comments as PR BS (LOL) and I think my best defence is the proof in the quality of our parts out there today on thousands of our converted cars. It is very rare that we get complaints on our parts and very rare we hear stories from customers who broke blaming an X part for this, my proof is in the hands of the satisfied public

Best Wishes,

Darren

I have to agree with SHY here, about the dedication you as a distributor/dealer show, it is second to none, and to me that is a proof that you really believe in your product, and that is a very good signal to give me as a customer.

And now that we agree that just moving production to China will not necessarily reduce quality, and that "Made in the USA" does not automatically mean a higher quality, the only thing we now need to settle is this issue with talking down on your competition

If we settle that also, the only thing that remains for me will be to purchase a kit for my one-race-old FT B4, and be convinced that the X6suared is as good as people say

Keep up the good work !

Roy

[MikePimlott]

Originally Posted by grelland

I have to agree with SHY here, about the dedication you as a distributor/dealer show, it is second to none

Id like to know who indtroduced him to oOple

[Darren Boyle]

Roy/SHY Thanks for the input from Norway guys!!!! LOL
I do need to clarify one thing....I have NOT put down any other brands "car", for the record the B4 is a SUPERB car (I have already said this tonight, which is why we based the X6 on it!!!!) and I am sure Chazz feels the same.

I have said that the quality of OUR parts is superior in many ways (on most parts now) and the most common parts we break on our X6 are the AE ones (This does not say at all that they are bad nor weak, they just happen to be the ones that break and the ones that we have NO control over, either quality or strength!!) If you guys have not witnessed the poorer quality from AE more recently then you may well want to read through some of the numerous threads here on oOPle that mention it, it does exist!!

Matt
The X5 to X5 Squared conversion uses just a few new parts - chassis, pro-proto covers, new body/decal and until recenlty thats it!!! Now we include the latest diff pullies too, a grand total of just 5 parts. The cost of the "upgrade" is £79.99 RRP here, whereas the whole X5 Squared kit (XX4 version) is £174.99, far more expensive.
As regards the X6 Squared, there are many more changes which add up to far more money (chassis, carbon battery strap, mounting hardware, rear hinge pin bushings, rear wishbones, carbon rear shock tower, body and decals - 7 items AND most are the expensive bits too) The cost of these parts alone is over £110 and yet the whole converison kit (everything to convert a B4 or older X6 from scratch) is going to be on the shops shelves at around £139.95 (just £30 more, which is too close to justify an update kit AND a full kit they would be FAR too close together in price)
For that extra £30 differnace you get - wing, 2 wing mounts, all required hardware, new AE idler gear, 2 idler bearings, idler shaft, set of anti squat shims, 2 rear hinge pins, rear 3 and 4 degree rear pivot blocks, gearbox casings, motor plate, rear bulkhead, 6 threaded inserts, motor T piece, gearbox height spacers etc which adds up to around £95 seperatly, so it really is not a bad deal......

[Darren Boyle]

Originally Posted by MikePimlott

Id like to know who indtroduced him to oOple

Who me?? For good reasons I hope......