Brushless motor/interference?

[littlened]

Just got an Orion Vortex ESC and 4.5t brushless motor. fitted them to the car using the standard receiver and a set of brand new orion 5100 nihm batteries. At first the car cut out all the time, which I figured was down to the tamiya battery connections, I've order some better connections which are more suitable, but in the meantime I've connected the battery to the car using 240v connections, so they shouldn't cause any bottleneck. I'm finding the car runs lovely now, until it gets a short distance away from me, and then it either starts twitching itself or wont respond to controls. I have to walk closer until it responds.

I've tried moving the receiver a little which did improve the distance, but I'm really restricted as to where I put it as there's no room left on the chassis.

I'm running a 27mhz AM setup.

Can anyone shed any light on this problem? could it be interference?

[JJ The Boat Wizzard]

Hi m8

Firstly What connecters are you using its down to the amps not the Voltage also what spedo is it because apart from the TOP end orion one i think the lowest motor you can run is a 6.5Turn so witch version is that??

What car is it in , and do you have anouther radio you can test it with??

Hope this helps
John

[littlened]

Originally Posted by JJ The Boat Wizzard

Hi m8

Firstly What connecters are you using its down to the amps not the Voltage also what spedo is it because apart from the TOP end orion one i think the lowest motor you can run is a 6.5Turn so witch version is that??

What car is it in , and do you have anouther radio you can test it with??

Hope this helps
John

The ESC I have is
http://www.modelsport.co.uk/?CallFun...n&ItemID=32103
Can cope with 3.5t or over according to the spec

At the minute I have the battery connected to the car using 240v screw connectors, what you'd use to connect a cooker to the mains. I've got some of these on order
http://www.apexmodels.com/gbu0-catsh...onnectors.html
will these be suitable?

The car is a lazer zx-5. I do have an FM radio set which I was about to return because I didn't need it.

When I push forward on the controller, the steering twitches slightly and you can feel the motor stopping and starting very briefly.

[sosidge]

The ESC you have is a sensorless one (despite the slightly misleading way they name it). Compared to the sensored controllers most use for racing, sensorless controllers are not as smooth at initial throttle. This may be part of the problem - although I think the main problem is interference or voltage drop under load.

Diagnosing radio faults can be a bit of a nightmare though...

Try removing the equipment from the car, spreading it far apart, and testing again. If there is no glitching then you can be pretty sure it is something to do with your installation. To be honest those mains terminals you are using are not going to be very well shielded, equally you need to make sure the wires and joints are all in good condition and are not rubbing against anything that may conduct electricity (and that includes carbon fibre and carbon composite parts)

If the equipment still glitches, it is something to do with the equipment itself. Check the ESC has all the capacitors fitted as recommended. Try and substitute each part of the system for known-good alternatives and see what is at fault. I would be a little wary of the basic 27MHz AM radio, these are not always as good at resisting interference as more expensive equipment (although if it is the Kyosho radio then these are Futaba-made and are generally good quality for the price).

You also need to make sure the battery is fully charged and that you are not testing it when flat. Not only does that increase the chance of problems caused by voltage dropping under load, it is also likely to damage the cells.

Hope this helps.

[RichB]

That's good advice above. Those connectors should be fine, assuming they're 4mm as it doesn't say on the website. One more Q: how have you mounted the Rx aerial, including the 'spare' wire? If you run the wire out of the top of the aerial tube and double it back down, this effectively 'cancels' the signal and will reduce the range.

[mdb_75]

Originally Posted by sosidge

The ESC you have is a sensorless one (despite the slightly misleading way they name it). Compared to the sensored controllers most use for racing, sensorless controllers are not as smooth at initial throttle. This may be part of the problem -

The Orion Vortex is a sensored esc although it will run sensorless too.

I use one which works fine using Lipos, but for some reason sometimes drops from sensored mode to sensoress when using my reasonaly old nimh's.

[littlened]

Thanks for all the advice so far,

I've switched from using the 27mhz am set to a 40mhz techniplus set, this included replacing the servo as well. For most part this has resolved 'most' of the issues, it certainly doesn't cut out as much as there isn't half as much servo twitching.

However a couple of problem that exist;

1) From a standstill, under full throttle, the steering veers left, every time.
2) From a distance away it still seems a little spluttery, especially under accelleration.

I've checked the settings on the ESC, and it's set not to cut out, and I've altered the power profile to be extra smooth.

I'm at a point now where I think I may either have to switch to lipo batteries(expensive) or buy a new brushed motor and ESC (maybe 10t), as I think I stand more chance of those working. I dont really want to go lipo, it's just too expensive at the minute, and the batteries I am using seemed to be the best I could get hold of.

[sosidge]

Originally Posted by mdb_75

The Orion Vortex is a sensored esc although it will run sensorless too.

I use one which works fine using Lipos, but for some reason sometimes drops from sensored mode to sensoress when using my reasonaly old nimh's.

The high-end KO-based one is sensored. The cheap one linked to is not.

[chb]

Originally Posted by littlened

Just got an Orion Vortex ESC and 4.5t brushless motor. fitted them to the car using the standard receiver and a set of brand new orion 5100 nihm batteries. At first the car cut out all the time, which I figured was down to the tamiya battery connections, I've order some better connections which are more suitable, but in the meantime I've connected the battery to the car using 240v connections, so they shouldn't cause any bottleneck. I'm finding the car runs lovely now, until it gets a short distance away from me, and then it either starts twitching itself or wont respond to controls. I have to walk closer until it responds.

I've tried moving the receiver a little which did improve the distance, but I'm really restricted as to where I put it as there's no room left on the chassis.

I'm running a 27mhz AM setup.

Can anyone shed any light on this problem? could it be interference?

Really Interesting...
I have the exact same problem on *2 cars* and ....
I have in common:
# 27MHz AM
# quite powerful BL motors (4.5t on ZX5, 5.5t on B4)
# Distance from TX is critical to these glitching issues

I don't overgear (I think...17t in ZX5, 21t in B4). Also, I have tried a data logger on the car: the voltage is not always low when glitching occurs. .

Until now, I've been blaming the TX because... I re-cycle some Kyosho perfex mini-Z TX that I thought could be low in TX power(designed for indoor).
I am about to compare my min-Z TX 27MHz AM with my proper(?) 40MHz AM sanwa radio. It will be monday when I get to the lab at work.

I will keep you posted on my findings and the possible solutions I find

[littlened]

Thanks, it'll be interesting to find out what your solution was.

[dibble34]

To be honest i suspect the main problem is 27mhz AM, although not sure why...

[littlened]

Originally Posted by dibble34

To be honest i suspect the main problem is 27mhz AM, although not sure why...

I've ruled that one out because I'm using 40mhz AM now. I suspect the problems I'm having now will be the battery connectors and the pinion. I'll sort them out and re-solder the wiring on the motor, and with a bit of luck it'll fix the issues.

I'll let everyone know how I get on.

[littlened]

I have an update. The 16t pinion arrived this morning, although it looks like I got the wrong pitch because it sounds kind of rough, so I've ordered another one which should be fine. In the meantime I've used this pinion to do some testing.

Here's a link to a video showing some testing.
http://www.sr8.co.uk/rc-car.wmv

What I've found is that if I put the receiver next to the motor at the rear of the car, where it's the only place it will fit, the car cuts out when I'm about 5-6 meters away. If I move the receiver to the front of the car, away from the motor, I can walk downstairs to the other side of the house with very minimal cut out.

During the testing I checked how hot the connectors and battery were. The connectors were fine, no heat at all. The motor was hot, but I could touch it for 3 seconds. The motor temperature is probably normal, if not, it could be down to the extra stress it's having to cope with while the wrong pitch pinion is on.

Because I wasn't at full throttle when any of the cut outs occured, then I'm assuming it's not a power issue, it's interference.

Will buying 2.4ghz radio gear definitely resolve this issue? I don't want to be wasting more money.

I forgot to mention, I've also put the capacitor on the receiver as suggested yesterday, they delivered pretty quick.

[Si Coe]

Originally Posted by chb

Really Interesting...
I have the exact same problem on *2 cars* and ....
I have in common:
# 27MHz AM
# quite powerful BL motors (4.5t on ZX5, 5.5t on B4)
# Distance from TX is critical to these glitching issues

I don't overgear (I think...17t in ZX5, 21t in B4). Also, I have tried a data logger on the car: the voltage is not always low when glitching occurs. .

Until now, I've been blaming the TX because... I re-cycle some Kyosho perfex mini-Z TX that I thought could be low in TX power(designed for indoor).
I am about to compare my min-Z TX 27MHz AM with my proper(?) 40MHz AM sanwa radio. It will be monday when I get to the lab at work.

I will keep you posted on my findings and the possible solutions I find

You are overgeared too.

The same Orion esc in my B4 caused me problems last weekend at the Southport GP. I though it was interference because the radio seemed to keep cutting out, but knew it wasn't cos I was on 2.4gHz. Turned out I was massively overgeared and the power drain was knocking out the radio.
Massively over geared in this case was a 26t pinion, 81 (stock) spur and a 7.5. I've now dropped to 22t and the problem has gone. If I'm running 22 with a 7.5t 21 with a 5.5t must be too high. Go down to 18 or 19 and see what happens.
And a 5.5t is pretty mental in a B4 anyway.......

[JJ The Boat Wizzard]

Hi all

From Reading this it looks like every 1 thats having a problem is massively overgeared and the power drain is knocking out the radio i have seen it hapen loads if your running a 4.5 turn motor you need about a 14-15 or pushing it a 16 (in a 4WD) and your running a what in your lazer ive forgot now was it a 23 :O im supprised it hasent cought fire or the internal solder inside the motor melted and destroyed the motor , u have been lucky wait till you get the correct pinnion before you go anywhere near that if you cant wait while your orderd one just go to a local model shop and buy one there only about 3quid also i seem to remember the lazers using a taymia pitch pinnion however i could be mistaken.

Hope This Helps

John

[littlened]

Originally Posted by JJ The Boat Wizzard

Hi all

From Reading this it looks like every 1 thats having a problem is massively overgeared and the power drain is knocking out the radio i have seen it hapen loads if your running a 4.5 turn motor you need about a 14-15 or pushing it a 16 (in a 4WD) and your running a what in your lazer ive forgot now was it a 23 :O im supprised it hasent cought fire or the internal solder inside the motor melted and destroyed the motor , u have been lucky wait till you get the correct pinnion before you go anywhere near that if you cant wait while your orderd one just go to a local model shop and buy one there only about 3quid also i seem to remember the lazers using a taymia pitch pinnion however i could be mistaken.

Hope This Helps

John

I'm pretty certain my issue isn't to do with drawing too much power from the motor due to incorrect gearing. I've tested the kit without the motor being attached to the car, and I still get cut outs.

It might help others on here though.

[bigred5765]

the first thing i can see in the video is that your Ariel isn't standing up in a tube, bad mistake.and any am radio will perform badly indoors no matter if its 27 or 40,

[chb]

Originally Posted by chb

Really Interesting...
I have the exact same problem on *2 cars* and ....
I have in common:
# 27MHz AM
# quite powerful BL motors (4.5t on ZX5, 5.5t on B4)
# Distance from TX is critical to these glitching issues

I don't overgear (I think...17t in ZX5, 21t in B4). Also, I have tried a data logger on the car: the voltage is not always low when glitching occurs. .

Until now, I've been blaming the TX because... I re-cycle some Kyosho perfex mini-Z TX that I thought could be low in TX power(designed for indoor).
I am about to compare my min-Z TX 27MHz AM with my proper(?) 40MHz AM sanwa radio. It will be monday when I get to the lab at work.

I will keep you posted on my findings and the possible solutions I find

Here is an update on the TX comparison:
(1)My 1988 Sanwa Dash 40MHz AM
(2)My 2002 Kyosho Perfex KT-5 (mini-Z) 27MHz AM

(1) is far more powerful TX (+10dB more on the antenna!) than (2)
(1) has much better performance at 30feet (-25dBm vs -55dBm !) than (2)

seems like modern radio regulation/legislation has forced radios to become anaemic

This may explain some of my issues. I need more testing...

Let us know if a 2.4GHz solves your issues, I am very interested

[littlened]

Originally Posted by chb

Here is an update on the TX comparison:
(1)My 1988 Sanwa Dash 40MHz AM
(2)My 2002 Kyosho Perfex KT-5 (mini-Z) 27MHz AM

(1) is far more powerful TX (+10dB more on the antenna!) than (2)
(1) has much better performance at 30feet (-25dBm vs -55dBm !) than (2)

seems like modern radio regulation/legislation has forced radios to become anaemic

This may explain some of my issues. I need more testing...

Let us know if a 2.4GHz solves your issues, I am very interested

My new 2.4ghz radio gear should arrive tomorrow, so I'll let you know.