Advices needed on a zx5 fs

[shannow95]

Hello ,
I reacently bought a RB5 witch is a disaster on our indoor track (cold polished oily hall vinyl ...) But it's really a shame because I really liked the RB5 conception , the way it is built and the metric screws quality ...

Anyway the conclusion is that I have to go back to 4wd at least on that track ... so it means going back to the B44 that I'm not very fond of ... the driving is ok , I don't think I have the skills yet to really notice a diference between the two . But I was wondering If the zx5 fs was as well built as the RB5 ,it looks nicer than the b44 just on pictures (more accesible) .
It is a bit childish a guess but I really have that sensation on the b44 of "oh no not that machine ..." it just enoys me ... just the silly 1/32" screws is already a heavy burden for me ... to set the motor spur is anoying as well ... it's just not a very accesible machine ...
As I have the RB5 many parts would be compatible I guess and I thought would it be a good idea to go full kyosho for both 2wd and 4wd ?
What are your thoughts on this ? Should I try and buy the kyosho and then sell later one the one I don't like , so that I can compare them ?

thanks in advance

[SimonW]

I've had both and much prefer my FS to the B44 i once had.

[shannow95]

Thanks for the reply .
I like the kyosho conception idea on it compared with the B44 .
One I am really looking foward to is the X11 predator ... I've discovered it today and there's a lot off "hey that's smart" conception on it . The springs have clips (I prefer them to the screw adjustable thing) . All the component are well protected inside the shell too and I like bathtubs chassis lol I don't know why it just seems better . Anyway I doubt I'll ever do the first step toward it as I live in france and the car parts are in uk ... might not be metric screws

[RogerM]

FS is a much nicer car to drive than the B44 in my opinion. I'm totally in love with mine!


Please ask for help with the RB5, I'm more than willing to help you set-up the car but I need information as to your driving style, surface, tires your allowed to use etc etc. along with current set-up and what it is you want the car to do differently.
The better the description the better able to help I will be.

I really wouldn't want anybody to not be enjoying the Kyosho cars, they are the only company out there with two fantastic cars at the the moment!

[shannow95]

Thank you but the biggest issue I have on the nidoor track is the surface/tyre relation . It's 80% of the car efficiency and it's just horrible not matter what with a 2wd ... I've tried slick tyre , mini pins , mini spikes , foam , smaller wheels ... the least worse was the mini pins as espected , the rear hold down very well but I have absolutely no grip on the front what so ever above 5mph. I've put weights at the front no difference either ...
Tried many different angles for front toe out 0 -> 2 degree out , front camber from 0->4degree rear the same etc etc it's just hopeless .
I've got a big garden I will make a little track in the woods ... (grass/dirt surface with many bumps) and run the rb5 there .
The fz5 fs would be more for the indoor track but also that track ... 2hours a week for the club is just not enough for a beginner willing to test settings and discover differences .
Unfortunaly for the kyosho zx 5 fs the x11 from xtreme team just looks so much exotic and sturdy and all ... also the videos on youtube it looks so agile in cornering and stable in straights . the guys on these videos are really pro as well I think ...but really each corner it took 1ft off the other cars ...

[Neil Skull]

I can guarantee the fs is as good as any buggy.
The problem for you is the surface, 4wd would be much better with mini-pins or spikes and the softest oil you dare use in your car. 100 weight even depending on jumps.

[RogerM]

I have to say as a long term Pred driver (something like 8.5/9 years) I was tempted to run one again with the X11. Then I found the sweet spot with the ZX5-FS and now I couldn't think to change!

The Pred is a great car but needs a lot of skill to get the best form it, certainly wouldn't consider it suitable for a beginer. Also if you want to experiment and learn about set-ups the Pred isn't really the platform as there are limited geometry adjustments compared with the ZX5-FS.

It's up to you at the end of the day but all I will say is that after just 2 meetings with his FS working with my set-ups my friend is a total convert and is going quicker than ever (he was running an X-factory X5 before).

Anyway, always willing to help with advice on set-ups / technical issues where I can with any car but for me it's Kyosho all the way!

[shannow95]

Thanks
Well what's tempting is also the fact that the x11 has a complete chart on the manual as to what settings to use on each surface (even polished floor is listed) . Sure there's a lot of set ups on the web but what I very desorientating is that you have 8 competitors with the same chassis and wheel/motor on the same track you'll find 8 different set ups (sometimes very different) . It's very hard to get a guide line for a beginner like this .

Also I'm wondering , If you have the zx5 and you want to run it in the week in your garden (dirt/grass surface) and once a week you go indoor with the club how do you set it up ? Changing each time the settings and clean it up is not a problem but how to I change the chock fluids ? That's going to cost me an awfull lot if I have to throw away each week 1oz . Same if you go on a another track for an event you change the fluids ? Or do you buy complete new sets of chock absorbers and have several sets for different tracks ?

[RogerM]

To be honest I rarely change shock oils on the FS, my base set-up seems to work reasonably well everywhere I've tried it so far!

I'd set the oils for where your racing and live with it not being perfect for the playground track.

How diffrent is the set-up between polished and grass for the Pred? Having run Preds for years my guess is quite a bit different, especially in the oils & pistons!

As I said before the X11 is without doubt a good car but it's not the easiest to either drive or maintain for a beginer!

[shannow95]

I agree with you for the playground track it doesn't matter much especialy as I will be alone .
The only thing that's anoying is that at our club/event it is either carpet or polished floor and these are both extremes in terms of high and low grip .

As for the difference for the x11 between grass and polished floor(on the chart):

fresh grass :
front : 35wt , toe in 0° , camber 3°, soft antiroll , hard piston
rear : 50wt , toe in 1° , camber 2° , soft antiroll , soft piston
10turn 19/73

Polished Floor:
front: 20wt , toe out 1° , camber 0°, soft antiroll , hard piston
rear : 40wt , toe in 2.2° , camber 0°, hard antiroll , hard piston
19turn 15/73

So quite a lot of changes presumably

I think I'll go with the zx5 fs anyway.

[shannow95]

Funnily on this chart they seem to never change springs .

What anti roll bars / chock oil / springs would you advise me to pickup as a set for the zx5 fs ? (I have already the light front yellow and orange rear )

Knowing that I will run on polished floor , some track on grass/dirt and carpet ?

I don't know if I'm correct in thinking like this but for the polished floor for example I need lots of front grip so soft springs at the front (like #55 red) and the rear need stability and again transfer wieght to the front so hard spring (like #75 light green).
I need a soft anti roll at the front (the stock 1.0mm will do) the rear antiroll bar should be hard from the chart (1.4mm or 1.6mm ?)
Then stuff the front chock absorbers with 20wt and rear 40wt with the settings of the x11 as a base and that's it ?

Or is it totaly wrong ? (for a super slipery flat track)

thank you

[Col]

Forget the x11. For anything less than a very good driver the car is just far too twitchy and brutal. Stick with the FS.
Personaly I have found Rogers set-ups utterly undrivable, but wether that's me or him I still don't know, but the FS or SP that I run are great indoors.

[RogerM]

Shannow95 ... I'll post in a bit when I have more time

Col ... in what way are they undrivable? Most people who try them find they are near enough for them to be able to do the final tweeks from. Interested in your feedback, all information is good information and anything that helps me help more Kyosho fans is a good thing as far as I am concerned!

[shannow95]

No problem

I'm learning by reading a lot at the moment .

I think the anti roll bar at the front is a bad idea ... At the rear I will leave the 1.2mm stock (or perhaps put the 1.0mm stock from the front on it) . More anti roll = less rolling of course but less traction , I don't want that . The rear light anti roll would be to give a bit more punch to the front sterring in corners so that the rear tries to powerslide (as it will sliding anyway on this track I'll try to make it feel like a traction car) .

The oil looks okay with the 2C's piston (front and rear) so 20wt front 40wt rear.

The front spring that would match it would be either dark yellow or red and for the rear I think I can leave the stock blue .

The geometry of the x11 chart looks okay and is confirmed with other setup chart seen on petitrc.com . Less grip = everything parrel and straighter .

Otherwise I think that's it for polished floor .

Is the idea okay ?

thanks

[RogerM]

sorry for the late reply .. busy weekend

Right, for "slippy" surfaces (FS) I'd be running
3A piston all round, 30wt front, 25wt rear (AE oils)
camber links longest both ends of the car
minimum antisquat (0 under forward rear hingepin block, 2 pip spacer under rear-most rear hingepin block)
7deg hubs on the front (1 or 2 pip spacer under forward front hingepin block)
dark yellow springs all round
Front shocks = in on tower, mid on wishbone
Rear shocks = in on tower, in on wishbone
No anti roll bars at either end
3 to 4 degree rear toe in (3 degree is the most you can get with standard kit parts)
Tires = whatever the fastest guys are running
I'd also be running the kit diffs front and rear (a oneway diff is a nightmare on really slippy stuff)

I hope that helps ... try that, tell me what the car is doing into & out of low and high speed corners etc. and I will do my best to help you tune the car to you.

I've driven most cars out there and have to say that for my money the ZX5-FS is the easiest to drive of them all .. if I wasn't running one I'd be driving the Yokomo B-max4 but hey, the FS is a joy so why think about anything else???

[shannow95]

Thank you that will help me a lot

Why is the rear oil softer than the front ?
The piston is a lot softer but the oil thicker what will it do on smooth track compared to the hard piston and soft oil I was planning ?

thanks again

[Fabs]

Originally Posted by shannow95

Thank you that will help me a lot

Why is the rear oil softer than the front ?
The piston is a lot softer but the oil thicker what will it do on smooth track compared to the hard piston and soft oil I was planning ?

thanks again

forget what you've learned with the pred in terms of shock setup. You should ALWAYS run thicker oils on the front, and usually pistons with smaller holes. This is because of the pickup points on the wishbones on conventional suspensions mean that the damping would be softer up front if you had the same setup f/r, whereas on the pred, it's the other way round.

[shannow95]

I see ... basicaly the angle of the chock would make the spring much stiffer than it actualy is ? And same with the rear .

I'll use RogerM settings to try it . I may add a small minimal anti-roll bar to see what hapens (as I can easily undo it on the track session).

Everything makes sense but Why not a 10degree caster ? (I've read that small caster is for high grip track ?)

The differential kit is what I will have stock on the zx 5 fs ? Or the one way diff is what's in the box ?

Thanks

[RogerM]

Normal kit diff

Less castor = more into a corner but less through and out (getting the nose in is the problem on slippy stuff ... exit rotation can be done with the throttle as the rear will come around)

More castor = less/smoother into a corner but more mid and exit grip (better for high grip stuff as it stops the car hooking / snatching into the corner but gives you the oppertunity to use the available grip on the way out)

I'd not run the ARBs as you want the car to roll to generate the grip. Trust me, the FS is really well balanced front to rear and on your sort of surface you don't want to bias either end of the car.

The soft oil / piston combination is also to encourage the car to roll to generate the overall grip but also will make the car feel less direct/pointy around centre so will be easier to drive on the slippy stuff

[shannow95]

Right thank you for all this

It is true that the RB5 on that track felt better with the 25° castor than the 30° set up .

Do you think the 10.5t would be better than the 6.5t motor ? Or leave the 6.5t as all the other drivers have that at the clib ?

thanks