BRCA Regulations - Cell Dimensions 2008

[Chris Green]

Hello,

I've heard a few things mentioned about how some of the cells on the current BRCA list will not be legal in 2008, due to cell dimensions?

Can anyone clarify which cells may be affected?

I will be looking to buy some new cells early next year for the '08 season, when will the '08 regs be announced?

Thanks,

Chris.

[Col]

No idea which are gonna become illegal, but my IB4200's are stupid tight in my B4...

[Chris Green]

haha! Mine are very tight too. I thought I got one set stuck yesterday!

My IB's are going in the bin soon though. I've been scared of them for ages!

I've just ordered some GrePow 4200's, to give them ago before I buy next season's cells.

[DCM]

I think that is a bit dodgy, you can't then make something illegel retrospectively, they were legal when homologated, you can't then make them illegal.

[RogerM]

I agree with DCM's sentiment however the rule makers can make any rule they can reasonably justify!!. The problem with that however is people who have only recently had to purchase cells (like myself) could be seriously out of pocket if they are retrospectively banned. Doesn't stop me being ultra cautious with them!!!!

There is also the issue of poor availability of the alternative cells so some people may not be able to buy anything other than IBs. I tried to get alternatives before buying my IBs and it was no go ..

I seem to remember it being mentioned that when something is on the list it is on the list so I guess that means it's unlikely for the IBs to be taken off. That said I would guess by equal logic any other cells supplied for homologation that pushed the rules a little too far may not get through.

All that said if the BRCA think there is a real safety issue then that would over ride anything else. Playing devil's advocate however which is dagerous, the cells or the charge methods some people try and use???????????

In my experience the BRCA and the electrc board in particular are sensible people so there will be no knee jerk reactions or flakey decissions, just good sense based on solid data. At the last Kiddy winter round Paul gave some very sensible advice about working with IBs in relation to some of the issues posted on line in the preceeding weeks. We went on and had a good days racing with everybody happy with what we had been told, at least that was my impression.

Well have to wait and see I guess, hopefully it won't be too long or else we won't be able to ask for new cells for Christmas!!!!

[DCM]

people got it in there head about charging at high amps for performance, cause the GP33's would take it, but the new ones don't.

I hope sense is seen after just buying five packs of IB42's

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by DCM

I think that is a bit dodgy, you can't then make something illegel retrospectively, they were legal when homologated, you can't then make them illegal.

Nothing is being made illegal, it's just EFRA has voted to start enforcing the rules on cell dimensions. It never bothered with measuring them before as it wasn't deemed necessary, after all you would think the cell manufacturers would stick to the ISO standards. The national associations have decided to follow suit.

The rules that have always been in the rule books since the 70s state that a batterys dimensions must be a diameter of 23.0mm +0/-1mm, overall length 43mm +0/-1.5mm. These are international standards governing the size of sub-C cells and the battery manufacturers have been taking liberties regarding the size tolerances as the capacity has increased. If the cells already meet the international standards then they will be legal in the future, if they are too big (like IB4200s) they will be banned. Just try measuring some of your cells to see if they actually fit in the current rules.

At least it would guarantee any batteries you buy in future will definitely fit in your chassis.

[SlowOne]

May I add this to Terry's post...

The Rules are not being changed. The dimensions are as they have always been. However, there is also a Rule that says that cells may be up to 44mm long AFTER charging, so that any distortion of the cell is taken into account. This was put in because some cells did distort (look at the base of the cell, they 'bell' out a bit on some) and it was not BRCA/EFRA's intention that drivers were disqualified because of something largely outside their control.

However, some cell manufacturer's took liberties, and made cells that 'borrowed' length from the 44mm Rule. BRCA/EFRA seem to have decided that they should go back to the 43mm Rule, including any distortion.

This change was made in 2006, and it was posted in the Rule books (EB Rule 3.1, EFRA Rule Appendix 3 - 3.1). It has been coming for 14 months, and now it is here. Orion have noticed this, and have developed a cell that seems to be (only pictures posted so far) about 42.4mm long, allowing for any distortion to keep the cell under 43mm.

So, it isn't a sudden change, and arguably it isn't retrospective. However, no one can say they weren't warned! Whatever your view, it wouldn't surprise me to find that the new list effective from 1 April 2008 does not have cells on it that cannot comply to the original Rules, including the removal of the '44mm allowance' agreed and published in 2006. HTH

[MattW]

hmm, deleted origional thoughts!!

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

May I add this to Terry's post...

The Rules are not being changed. The dimensions are as they have always been. However, there is also a Rule that says that cells may be up to 44mm long AFTER charging, so that any distortion of the cell is taken into account. This was put in because some cells did distort (look at the base of the cell, they 'bell' out a bit on some) and it was not BRCA/EFRA's intention that drivers were disqualified because of something largely outside their control.

However, some cell manufacturer's took liberties, and made cells that 'borrowed' length from the 44mm Rule. BRCA/EFRA seem to have decided that they should go back to the 43mm Rule, including any distortion.

This change was made in 2006, and it was posted in the Rule books (EB Rule 3.1, EFRA Rule Appendix 3 - 3.1). It has been coming for 14 months, and now it is here. Orion have noticed this, and have developed a cell that seems to be (only pictures posted so far) about 42.4mm long, allowing for any distortion to keep the cell under 43mm.

So, it isn't a sudden change, and arguably it isn't retrospective. However, no one can say they weren't warned! Whatever your view, it wouldn't surprise me to find that the new list effective from 1 April 2008 does not have cells on it that cannot comply to the original Rules, including the removal of the '44mm allowance' agreed and published in 2006. HTH

what cells are being removed from legal list (BANNED) can we now so we can make provisions to be legal come april fools day

[DCM]

I don't care what they do, i can't afford to replace cells I have only just bought, so if they do fall off the list, BRCA can shove it where the sun don't shine!!

[twisty]

DCM,if you joined the BRCA ,then YOU are a part of the BRCA,if you want to change something in the rules you must go to the AGM and sound out your arguments there or get someone who is going to do it for you.
The BRCA ,is mainly racers trying to do thier best for all of us.

[PaulRotheram]

All i have to say is they need to get this sorted ASAP!

Today at the NE indoor regional one pack of Vtecs (the new version ones!!!??) exploded on someones pit table, which was right next to the rostrum, with a woman and a child close by. A serious close call as the cells exploded in the opposite direction with a huge bang - similar to a firework!

Then a few hours afterward another pack of cells started smoking popping and sizzling.. lucky enough they didnt go bang and the driver responsibly placed them outside to let them simmer away.

This really does need sorting as the cell situation is getting out of hand now. I can honestly say today was the first time i've been nervous around cells.

[twisty]

oh,and if the cells you have just bought are dropped,why not sell them to bashers or club drivers and purchace new legal ones? no need to be nasty about it?

[Chrislong]

As soon as the EB guys make a decision, then im sure we'll know very very quickly.... afterall its an important issues...

Just think of the club guys who rely on buying 2nd hand cheap good cells from the sponsorred lads, and those of us who make cells lasts 1-2+ years.... this is going to be a big hit in the wallet... and a kick to BRCA governed events (we'll still run whatever we want at club ofcause, including Lipo).

Then there'll be the potential cell shortage if we're forced away from IB's to whatever brand is within the dimensions.... 100's of us ordering several packs within the first few weeks of the news I guess.... chaos?

So, this in mind, im confident that whatever decision is made will be deeply thought and for the right reasons..

Oh, and today a cell went bang at Batley, it was a Vtec 4200 being charged at 6amp, was cool and had no more than 2000mah in it after being equalised... ..(wasn't me btw).

Chris

[Chrislong]

Originally Posted by twisty

oh,and if the cells you have just bought are dropped,why not sell them to bashers or club drivers and purchace new legal ones? no need to be nasty about it?

Because why would they buy them, they will need legal ones for Regionals?

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

Because why would they buy them, they will need legal ones for Regionals?

to be honest the brca should issue a list of legal cells come april fools day with the copy of your brca license issued january it would be at least time to obtain legal stuff and yes dcm is right if youve just spent a load of cash on cells it is crap

[DCM]

Originally Posted by twisty

DCM,if you joined the BRCA ,then YOU are a part of the BRCA,if you want to change something in the rules you must go to the AGM and sound out your arguments there or get someone who is going to do it for you.
The BRCA ,is mainly racers trying to do thier best for all of us.

dude, you just have NO IDEA do you. I have been a member of the BRCA since 1988, and the EB is voted in to enforce and manage the rules. if they decide tomorrow that IB4200 are illegal, I am screwed, and so are lots of other people in the same boat. It is attitudes like yours that get us in this predicament 'just flog em and buy more', not exactly constructive OR helpful.

I then have to look at losing at least 33% of the value, so right away I am out of pocket, then I got to try and get five packs of the legal ones. Then I have three kids racing, who would need furnishing in cells, as they have my old cells, problem compounded.

[DaveG28]

I can feel a big expense going on, RC is expensive enough without new batteries! I was planning to start using my packs for 5 cells as cells go dead too!

Just so I know, what exactly are the legal alternatives at the moment?

[SlowOne]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

Oh, and today a cell went bang at Batley, it was a Vtec 4200 being charged at 6amp, was cool and had no more than 2000mah in it after being equalised... ..(wasn't me btw).

Chris

Which is absolutely what we have all been told NOT to do. Didn't anyone think to remind drivers at briefing, and post copies of the EB advice on the results board?

It's all very well moaning about what is going to happen, but when are racers going to be responsible about this and follow advice when its given? (see the item "Advice on using NiMh cells") Characteristic of these events is high charge rates.

For those who have forgotten the procedure, the cell list is usually issued around the first week of January, leaving almost three months before the cells are 'legal' for BRCA Nationals. And that list has no direct impact on cells being used at Clubs.

If this means that we reduce these incidents to almost nothing, isn't that a small price for the inconvenience this causes. Compared to investing in LiPo, or having some other organisation make H&S Rules for me, this is a preferable course of action.