Consumer Rights on Used cars. Help Please!

[Danny McGee]

Hiya Folks,

Just wondering if anyone know my right when it comes to taking back a used car to the garage with regards to consumer rights and trading standings

Ive had a new car for 4 weeks and in that time its been back three times for the same issue. I keep getting fobbed off by the dealer who takes me for a bit of a fool. I'd like to think im not and can give as goos as i get, however, last night the light on the dash (pdf) has some on again. The guy at the garage mentioned they were going to take it off and steam clear it.

Now ive spoke to two main dealers and they said that's rubbish and it wont actually fix a thing. Its starting to get a royal pain as its 100 round trip plus the miles the guys are doing (re-generating) the car.

Im thinking about mentioning the trading standards and telling him if he doesnt get it sorted then i am going to pass the case on to them and see where things go.

Any help appreciated

Danny

[Northy]

Do you mean DPF Danny? That's the "diesel" cat, not sure they can be cleaned if they are that bad. However our Vectra used to clean the DPF on a run every now and again.

Probably not much help.

G

[bodgit]

Under the supply of goods and services act 1982. Godds must be of satisfactory quality and any services (repairs) must be carried out with reasonable skill and care.
If they cannot fix the fault after a reasonable time you can get an indipendant report. You should send them a copy of the report and give them 10 days to effect full and lasting repairs.
If they fail to do so you may be able to get the repairs done elswhere and seek compensation from the small courts.
If you paid by credit card for the car under the consumer credit card act 1974 sect 75 you can recover your losses again via the courts. The credit card company by allowing the dealer to accept their cards are responsible for any losses.

[MattW]

Danny, which warning light is it??

Regardless of which one it is, steam cleaning isn't gonna do jack!

If it's the actual DPF lamp, and it's a genuine DPF error, then you're potentially looking at big bucks - which makes it more of an issue. I believe i'm right in saying that it has to be manually re-generated - which in theory can clear it. However, i'm sure there is a point that if that doesn't sort it, then it needs changing. There is some good info on Seatcupra.net

I had an AX GT (don't all laugh!) that after I bought it, it became obvious that it had been involved in an accident that hadn't been properly repaired. I spoke to citizens advice, and on that occasion that advised me that I had a potentially good claim that the car wasn't fit for the purpose that it was intended (i.e the rear end was bent!!). Happened to throw this into conversation when discussing it with the garage, and all of a sudden they were happy to sort it for me.

[bodgit]

Read the full item for better details. the above is what trading standards told me with a similar problem I am having with a car.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...beencarriedout

[Danny McGee]

Hiya Matt,

Its the DPF lamp yer and yer having spoken to the Seat main dealers it has to be force regenerated which they can only do and like you say its a bit spendy spendy, hence the wanting to get them to do it.

Im thinking that a that with CBA would be a good idea on monday but im taking the car back tomorrow as im getting a bit cheesed off.

I'd like to know how long a (reasonable time would be) as for how long before i can go nuts basically

Cheers

Originally Posted by MattW

Danny, which warning light is it??

Regardless of which one it is, steam cleaning isn't gonna do jack!

If it's the actual DPF lamp, and it's a genuine DPF error, then you're potentially looking at big bucks - which makes it more of an issue. I believe i'm right in saying that it has to be manually re-generated - which in theory can clear it. However, i'm sure there is a point that if that doesn't sort it, then it needs changing. There is some good info on Seatcupra.net

I had an AX GT (don't all laugh!) that after I bought it, it became obvious that it had been involved in an accident that hadn't been properly repaired. I spoke to citizens advice, and on that occasion that advised me that I had a potentially good claim that the car wasn't fit for the purpose that it was intended (i.e the rear end was bent!!). Happened to throw this into conversation when discussing it with the garage, and all of a sudden they were happy to sort it for me.

[Danny McGee]

Originally Posted by bodgit

Read the full item for better details. the above is what trading standards told me with a similar problem I am having with a car.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...beencarriedout

Thanks for that, very useful indeed

Danny

[HarlowS]

The DPF is classed as a consumable item and as mentioned steam cleaning it will just make it look nice on a ramp. If i were you i would get it removed, get a straight pipe put in its place and then get it remaped. You wont have any more issues and you will get a bit more power out of it. Thats what i did with my Alfa and the difference was light and day.

[bodgit]

Here,s what the AA say . A good long burn up on the motorway can help clean it.
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice...e-filters.html

[sldmodels]

If all else fails, go see the CAB, as they pretty much deal with this kind of thing on a daily basis.

[HarlowS]

As its a consumable item i dont think the CAB will be able to do anything (im right in saying its not a brand new car ?? ). In the same way tyres could wear down a week after you had them.

[bodgit]

From the AA
How do they work?

Diesel Particulate filters (DPF) or 'traps' do just that, they catch bits of soot in the exhaust.
As with any filter (think of the bag in your vacuum cleaner) they have to be emptied regularly to maintain performance. For a DPF this process is called 'regeneration' – the accumulated soot is burnt off at high temperature to leave only a tiny ash residue. Regeneration may be either passive or active.
Passive regeneration

Passive regeneration takes place automatically on motorway-type runs when the exhaust temperature is high. Many cars don't get this sort of use though so manufacturers have to design-in 'active' regeneration where the engine management computer (ECU) takes control of the process.
Active regeneration

When the soot loading in the filter reaches a set limit (about 45%) the ECU can make small adjustments to the fuel injection timing to increase the exhaust temperature and initiate regeneration. If the journey's a bit stop/start the regeneration may not complete and the warning light will illuminate to show that the DPF is partially blocked.
It should be possible to start a complete regeneration and clear the warning light simply by driving for 10 minutes or so at speeds greater than 40mph.

Im not a mechanic but wondered if you removed the PDF could you use a Hot air gun or blow lamp gently to create the high temp mentioned to clear the soot away. You would need to confirm this with a proper mechanic first.
You say you have only had the car 4 weeks so it can be reasonably assumed that this problem was on the car before you bought it as it has built up enough to light up the dash warning so that would help in the courts.

[SlowOne]

I haven't read the attachment above, but in the Telegraph the guy is always saying that faults that are "reasonably foreseeable as being there when the car was sold" are the responsibility of the seller. A DPF isn't a consumable item, it is a permanent feature of the car designed to trap smoke particles and then burn them off later.

These DPF things need the car to be used hard from time to time to make them work (burn up the particulates) properly. People at work see me as someone who drives too fast, but I am the diesel owner who has never had trouble with a DPF!! HTH

[Danny McGee]

Originally Posted by HarlowS

As its a consumable item i dont think the CAB will be able to do anything (im right in saying its not a brand new car ?? ). In the same way tyres could wear down a week after you had them.

Yer its a 2nd hand Seat Leon Fr, 56 plate with 33k on the clock.

Ive just been on the phone with the guy at the garage this morning and ive told him im taking it back this morning and i dont want it back until its sorted. I have an RAC warranty so ive told him to get them over to have a look and i want to see their report (so i know he's done it) then i will see what that comes up with. Once thats happened im thinking about taking it to Seat and getting it looked at properly and probably fixed if its not too expensive. If they tell me its too expensive then i will go back to this guy and tell him what the problem is and id like him to fix it. Its starting to not be so easy to talk with this guy on the phone and not shout and scream as i know what the problem is and cant just be foobed off....

[bodgit]

Looks like the previous owner potted around in it and sooted it up. Out of interest does the light go out if you hit the moterways for a cruise.

[shanks]

Has rhe same issue on the in laws citreon

It's as bodgit quoted the particulate filter will be blocked as the car will have failed to run through the cleansing cycle by on running short trips

At first I changed the ellinis fluid which is the stuff a citreon squirts into the mix during the cleansing cycle to raise the exhaust temp sufficient to burn the build up in the filter
Dealer quoted £700-800 for doing this!! I got a kit for £100 and did it myslef

Not saying that's yr solution though

You could try getting it really hot I.e run it in say 2nd gear up the motorway at full rpm right up to red line and hold it there for a good 10-15 minutes - only way it may get any near hot enough

Spoke to a mechanic I know (a very good one) and he said he had similar issues with other diesel cars and they r a right pain to sort

The chap that mentioned cutting it out n replacing with a piece of pipe has the easiest n best solution really - though that means more cost

Otherwise get straight onto trading standards but imagine it will end up in anoint drawn out process and it's obvious the garages are struggling to sort it anyway !

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by bodgit

From the AA
How do they work?

Diesel Particulate filters (DPF) or 'traps' do just that, they catch bits of soot in the exhaust.
As with any filter (think of the bag in your vacuum cleaner) they have to be emptied regularly to maintain performance. For a DPF this process is called 'regeneration' – the accumulated soot is burnt off at high temperature to leave only a tiny ash residue. Regeneration may be either passive or active.
Passive regeneration

Passive regeneration takes place automatically on motorway-type runs when the exhaust temperature is high. Many cars don't get this sort of use though so manufacturers have to design-in 'active' regeneration where the engine management computer (ECU) takes control of the process.
Active regeneration

When the soot loading in the filter reaches a set limit (about 45%) the ECU can make small adjustments to the fuel injection timing to increase the exhaust temperature and initiate regeneration. If the journey's a bit stop/start the regeneration may not complete and the warning light will illuminate to show that the DPF is partially blocked.
It should be possible to start a complete regeneration and clear the warning light simply by driving for 10 minutes or so at speeds greater than 40mph.

Im not a mechanic but wondered if you removed the PDF could you use a Hot air gun or blow lamp gently to create the high temp mentioned to clear the soot away. You would need to confirm this with a proper mechanic first.
You say you have only had the car 4 weeks so it can be reasonably assumed that this problem was on the car before you bought it as it has built up enough to light up the dash warning so that would help in the courts.

no you need extreemly high temps. that can not be achieved by doing that.
speaking on fords they will self gen in around every 300 miles, town driving on deisels is a big no no now, they need a good thrash which im sure danny has done.

Originally Posted by shanks

Has rhe same issue on the in laws citreon

It's as bodgit quoted the particulate filter will be blocked as the car will have failed to run through the cleansing cycle by on running short trips

At first I changed the ellinis fluid which is the stuff a citreon squirts into the mix during the cleansing cycle to raise the exhaust temp sufficient to burn the build up in the filter
Dealer quoted £700-800 for doing this!! I got a kit for £100 and did it myslef

Not saying that's yr solution though

You could try getting it really hot I.e run it in say 2nd gear up the motorway at full rpm right up to red line and hold it there for a good 10-15 minutes - only way it may get any near hot enough

Spoke to a mechanic I know (a very good one) and he said he had similar issues with other diesel cars and they r a right pain to sort

The chap that mentioned cutting it out n replacing with a piece of pipe has the easiest n best solution really - though that means more cost

Otherwise get straight onto trading standards but imagine it will end up in anoint drawn out process and it's obvious the garages are struggling to sort it anyway !

blody ell we replace the full cats for that? topping up the fliud is around 150 tops,

cutting out and replacing is a fools idea, the presure sensors on them know there is nothing there and put in a fault code

[smokes]

this is a common problem for all 2.0 litre tdi vag i know I used to work for VAg Designing stuff. You need to give the engine a good run down the motor way. As small run cause soot build up triggering the fault. Several guys had this problem with there VAG as the got new one every 6 months due to there short commute with in 2 weeks of getting the car. If it won't clear as the soot has caked on it better to get replaced as i very much doubt a steam clean will do it it need to be physical remove of the sensor. this the soot will stick in a similar matter like leftover weetabix and milk!

[mark christopher]

Danny speaking on fords ( i do have a good contact in a seat dealer if you need some exact info)

when fords do a regen ( we have citroen/pueguot engines) they have flaps that bypass the intercooler out of the intake system and then they over fuel which burns the soot in the DPF turning it to ash, temps can reach 700c. an accumulation of ash will over time bung the DPF and it needs renwewing , the eloy ( fliud) coats the DPF and is injected every time you add diesel to the tank, so its constantly going through the fuel system, its not only used for the regen. ( modern dpf now dont have the fluid as the DPF is pre coated, its also very nasty toxic stuff)

any air leaks on the induction will fill them with soot and it can be a pain to regen them tho good techs know a trick to fool the system into a regen.(ford) though you do need the dealer specific diag or a independant with the diag tool.

you can get results with steam cleaning and there are kits available to clean them out, but the best way is new part, but 95% on your sort of mileage its just in need af a good regen and static is the best.

[smokes]

mark
do you know why the turbo intake hoses on volvo D5 engine seem to have a habit of splitting? THere were owed by ford and shared parts thought you might know.

Also i had the cam belt changed on a mk1 focus zetec done 7k miles on it and the engine feels tight i have done a full service and it still hasn't improved things is it possible that guy have over tensioned the belt or not replace the tensioner or when the tensioned the belt didn't check that they pulled timing out on the camshaft. It really annoying the engine was really resposive to throttle input before now it feels a but like diesel.