Anybody tried 35deg overall caster on the 22?

[Chris Elworthy]

Hi lads,

Just wondering whether anybody has tried 35deg overall caster on their 22s?
I'm currently running the car in 25deg kickup with the 5deg caster block but the car still feels a little too aggressive off power on a very high traction astro track. Would using the 10deg block with the 25deg kick shims calm down the front end on corner entry and make it less aggressive?
The car is quick around the track but doesn't feel consistent enough for me due to the aggressive nature of the front end. Similarly I'd be interested in whether there are any problems to running the 25/10 setup on the 22?

All help would be great


Chris

[Delves]

Hi

I haven't tried this but from my understanding this increased caster would take away initial turn in but increase your mid to exit steering, which might make it feel more 'snatchy' to drive on exit.

If you are looking to calm the car down, have you tried the 4mm trailing axles? For me this smooths the car out and makes it more consistent to drive.

HTH

[Chris Elworthy]

I was just curious of the effect of the caster before I get the 4mm trailing axles. As I said I have been using the 25/5 deg setup as supposed to the stock 20/10 setup and the car does feel better and more planted on power as it increases rear weight transfer? Is this right?
I have been thinking about the caster separately to the overall caster combined with the kick and was wondering whether using the 25/5 setup over the 20/10 setup actually makes the car more aggressive as the caster itself (not combined with the kick) is smaller or does this not matter as its the overall value that will effect handling?
I certainly feel the 25deg kick angle gives a sense of more rear grip but was wondering if the increased weight transfer this gives you was causing the car to feel aggressive off power on the high grip astro.


Chris

[Gnarly Old Dog]

I've run 25/10 on my 22 and I still use it in slick conditions as a tuning aid.

From what I understand, you're right to be trying to separate the kick from the caster as 20/10 or 25/5 or 30/0 will all behave subtly different.

Increasing the kick angle will exaggerate wheelbase change during compression. Again, from what I understand, increasing kick will also enable greater weight transfer - but it will resist any initial transfer longer.

So in theory, 20 deg kick will produce the least amount of weight transfer but it will initiate the transfer earlier.

It's always worth re-visiting geometry choices and objectively testing them back to back to decide if the original decision is still the best one. Our setups always evolve. As Delves has said, he likes the 4mm trailing and that is certainly an effective mechanism to reduce the front end aggression. Personally, i can't get on with the 4mm myself so I continue with the 2mm.

But its also true to say that since everything affects everything else, simply changing one aspect may not always yield the best result and can give a false impression. You may need to alter other aspects of the set up to yield an overall improvement and failure to do this will otherwise lead you to thinking that the single change was not worthwhile.

HTH

[Chris Elworthy]

So just to clarify, using 20deg kickup in theory would reduce weight transfer rearward compared with the 25deg? And would feel a little more aggressive? I tend to research a certain tuning aspect one at a time so am trying to get my head around weight transfer at the moment.
As for the 4mm trailing spindles, I do intend to get these ASAP but what are the benefits and disadvantages over 2mm, in which conditions should they help or are they something that give a different 'feel' that some drivers would prefer but you would always use them with your setup regardless of track type and grip levels?


Chris

[Gnarly Old Dog]

That's pretty much as I understand it Chris yes.

Here's a couple of useful articles that the Team Losi Racing guys posted on their blog a while back that might help you.

4mm Trailing Spindle explanation - click here

Kick Angle explanation - click here

HTH

[RDG 40]

Its quite an interestin topic for the 22

Ive dun all the mods the team do, from day one every one helped!

Remove inside 2mm
Then did 25/5
Long link mod
Long link with 30 block with 0 caster
Now i run 25/5 with 4mm normal link with 3 caster as it was better than 0

The car now i love! (Delves set up)

The only thing where i go wrong is i change tyres to conditions but i neva know what small thing to change as conditions change

i.e. it rains, u want tad more steering or rear end from this base set up. I run delves now and as in other thread its mint !! Jus knowin more wud help me

[Gnarly Old Dog]

I think the great thing about the Delves set up is that it is inherently well balanced and enables the driver to get on the throttle slightly earlier in the turn than my own set up enables.

Running in the wet shouldn't be too much of a problem - use the Delves set up as your basis and look to increase the front Caster by using a 10 deg block. You will have to moderate the throttle a bit more but the car will still retain its balance and composure.

I'd also consider shortening your links by moving the inboard locations out to the hole number 2 on both front and rear. This change combined with the caster block change is likely to be enough to start with.

Depending on surface, obviously a tyre change will be in order - probably to a Schumacher silver or a BB Green depending on Astro type.
I would look to run a silver minispike front if using silvers on the rear or maybe a BB slim green front or even a Schumacher minispike green if using BB rears.

To be honest though, the tyre choice has to be driven by what works on whatever track you find yourself on as the tyre will dominate all other characteristics.

[Delves]

Originally Posted by Gnarly Old Dog

I think the great thing about the Delves set up is that it is inherently well balanced and enables the driver to get on the throttle slightly earlier in the turn than my own set up enables.

Running in the wet shouldn't be too much of a problem - use the Delves set up as your basis and look to increase the front Caster by using a 10 deg block. You will have to moderate the throttle a bit more but the car will still retain its balance and composure.

I'd also consider shortening your links by moving the inboard locations out to the hole number 2 on both front and rear. This change combined with the caster block change is likely to be enough to start with.

Depending on surface, obviously a tyre change will be in order - probably to a Schumacher silver or a BB Green depending on Astro type.
I would look to run a silver minispike front if using silvers on the rear or maybe a BB slim green front or even a Schumacher minispike green if using BB rears.

To be honest though, the tyre choice has to be driven by what works on whatever track you find yourself on as the tyre will dominate all other characteristics.

Solid advise as always from Andy Can't really add to that

[Chris Elworthy]

Thanks for the help lads, looking forward to getting some track time to try it out. My next meeting however is on a 50/50 carpet and slippery gym floor track at the weekend. I originally tried the 25/5 setup on this surface and I felt it hooked up quite well so have persevered with the 25/5 setup on all surfaces since.

I know it's a little off topic but I was advised to use low roll centre with 0 anti squat on the polished floor last time so
I changed from my HRC 4.5deg block and 3deg anti squat to the LRC option. Should the LRC block be more suited to slippery floor? Because I'm sure it didn't feel any different to the HRC block with 3deg more anti squat.

Delves, any chance I could get hold of your astro
Setup to compare to mine?


Chris

[RDG 40]

Pop a couple of threads back think its steering one it has his on it

The 22 seems very responsive to small changes, wen i went 0 caster to 3 last sunday it was a titally different car. So do small things at a time

I jus follow the prosand seens to work

[RDG 40]

Originally Posted by Gnarly Old Dog

I think the great thing about the Delves set up is that it is inherently well balanced and enables the driver to get on the throttle slightly earlier in the turn than my own set up enables.

Running in the wet shouldn't be too much of a problem - use the Delves set up as your basis and look to increase the front Caster by using a 10 deg block. You will have to moderate the throttle a bit more but the car will still retain its balance and composure.

I'd also consider shortening your links by moving the inboard locations out to the hole number 2 on both front and rear. This change combined with the caster block change is likely to be enough to start with.

Depending on surface, obviously a tyre change will be in order - probably to a Schumacher silver or a BB Green depending on Astro type.
I would look to run a silver minispike front if using silvers on the rear or maybe a BB slim green front or even a Schumacher minispike green if using BB rears.

To be honest though, the tyre choice has to be driven by what works on whatever track you find yourself on as the tyre will dominate all other characteristics.

So keep shim to the flat 25 one and go from 3 to 10 caster, shorten links sounds perfect changes nice and easy

Would all the shims stay same rear 2 & 2 front 2 & 2

Last thing do bleeder caps affect much ova bladders? Tempted to change but id want metal and cost ova use i always weigh up

Thanks all this info helps loads

Now pester thrm for a 4wd lol

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Cheers guys,
Easy bits first:

@RDG40 - yup, all shims stay the same - just shorten the links. Also, bleeder caps all the way. Haven't used bladders since about mid 2011. Definitely easier to build and bleed shocks and the alloy bleeder caps are deffo worth the investment

@Chris - I can understand the drop in anti-squat for polished floor as it will promote rearward weight transfer and I did do this to mine at Telstar last winter. I also moved the shock out on the tower to the outer hole to improve forward drive. It was good but scary when it did let go Definitely one where you have to be quite smooth...but it was good on the slippy (although a handful on the grippy - probably due to the shock location more so than the anti squat though)

As for LRC vs HRC, I can only say that I have stuck with HRC on my set ups. From the testing we did in the beginning, the LRC feels as if it grips harder to begin with but then it lets go more aggressively. It might be faster but I wasn't as consistent with it so I've always stuck with the HRC. Others prefer the locked in initial feeling of the LRC blocks (the HRC will feel looser on corner entry but will be more progressive through the entire turn). Horses for courses really. A bit like the 4mm Trailing axles - Delves swears by them and I swear at them - lol. But as you know and as RDG40 has said, the car is super reactive to small changes so it should be possible to get somewhere near for your individual driving style.

HTH

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Oh - forgot to add.

@ RDG40 - when you change the caster block from 3 or 5 to 10 deg, don't forget to make sure you add some bumpsteer washers under the outer steering ball stud - 2mm should do it. The change in caster will affect the height of these and you want to be aiming (IMO) for zero bump steer.

HTH

[Delves]

Originally Posted by Chris Elworthy

Thanks for the help lads, looking forward to getting some track time to try it out. My next meeting however is on a 50/50 carpet and slippery gym floor track at the weekend. I originally tried the 25/5 setup on this surface and I felt it hooked up quite well so have persevered with the 25/5 setup on all surfaces since.

I know it's a little off topic but I was advised to use low roll centre with 0 anti squat on the polished floor last time so
I changed from my HRC 4.5deg block and 3deg anti squat to the LRC option. Should the LRC block be more suited to slippery floor? Because I'm sure it didn't feel any different to the HRC block with 3deg more anti squat.

Delves, any chance I could get hold of your astro
Setup to compare to mine?

Chris

Hi Chris,

The set up I ran at Off Road Wars should be good for a slippy/High Traction indoor circuit You can find it in this thread;

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114285

It's my first post in this thread and the second of the set up sheets I believe.

Astro set up is pretty much the same as my indoor set up, the only thing I play with is the piston hole size believe it or not! I will dig a set up sheet out from the Nats tomorrow as it's on my work machine at the mo! I have a set up form all the national tracks this year, what track would you say is closest to your local astro track (gives me an idea as to which set up to post for you to compare).

Have to say that my set up has a great deal to do with Andy (Aka, Gnarly Old Dog), we have been working throuout the year on our cars and we have arrived at a set up that I personally feel has an excellent balance. Obviously it's not going to be to everyone's liking but I was pleased to see that RDG40 found it to be good for him and hope others will find that too

[mr. losi]

which setup is the "Magic" setup Delves...we ru on ozite carpet in the states....with wooden jumps...the grip gets pretty high by the end of the night...


i had my car good then something went south...a starting point would be great..

matt

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Hi Matt,
The attached is Chris's (Delves) latest set up that he ran at the last round of the Maritime Off Road Wars - an indoor circuit with medium grip on carpet plus slippery wooden sections.

Not quite sure how grippy that will compare to your ozite carpet. In higher bite situations, we'd probably look to up the spring rates a touch - going to a blue on the front and a pink at the rear to keep things plantedor maybe up the damping a touch.

On really high bite, if you can hang on to it, the 2mm standard axles can be used to sharpen up the steering response but I'd say have a try with the attached and go from there.

It might not work for you but hit us back with what's going on and we'll throw in some suggestions if you like? Like we'd always say, the set ups evolve for each driver - if the attached helps as a starting point then that's great but don't be afraid to try out your own things, one at a time, and see/feel what they do. The 22 is very rewarding in this respect - it does tell you what's going on if you want to listen

HTH

[RDG 40]

the cut motor guard is it as I believe and jus cut in half? this allows cells to move back just about 5 or so mm?

Could guard just be removed?

[Delves]

Originally Posted by RDG 40

the cut motor guard is it as I believe and jus cut in half? this allows cells to move back just about 5 or so mm?

Could guard just be removed?

Yeah, the guard is cut to allow the cells to be moved back as far as possible as well allowing for more flex. I would either cut the guard or put spacer in at the top (where the guard fits onto the gearbox) so you dont twist/bend the motor plate.

[RDG 40]

Ahh got ya now forgot it spaces the mount.

Luckily have a cut one already

Ta