Draft GT12 Rules, Have your say
 

GT12 class, from the proposed rules :eek:
but if that doesn't get voted in and I hope it doesn't, it'll be an open class http://rcracechat.com/vb/images/icons/icon14.gif

Hi Glenn

I'm hoping for the open class, but to be honest untill it's been finalised i like most people will wait to see what to buy/try IF they are going to do a national.

I'm just hoping you can still use the carbon chassis even though you won't score any points.....i can't do all the rounds so points are of no interest anyway.

Col

ALL PLEASE NOTE:
these proposed rules are for racing in a BRCA national series.

your own club may choose to adopt them or not or run to a variation of them

I hope it's open but fear the worst :woot:

If it is the worst I just hope it's for Mardave for 3 years and not the new kid on the block

i fail to see how the BRCA can choose one make and basically kill the other, (both uk manufactures) i thought the aim of the BRCA was to suport and promote model car racing, not to kill manufacures!

Anyone got any idea what time the gt12 EGM starts on Saturday?

10:00 am
http://rcracechat.com/vb/showthread....r-Viewing-Only!
theres links to the proposals on there too

Thanks :)

Should make the rules suit both

both cars to run side by side :thumbsup:


The meeting voted for Construction Rules, and there were some small modifications. We added Rules to allow a 2S/21.5 class, and decided not to run that at Nationals. It gives the Clubs something to use. Many thanks to James Garrett for probably the best presentation of a rule proposal we have ever seen! Although there are valid reservations about using it at National level as an equivalent to the brushed and brushless motors with 4-cell and 1S respectively, we will be working (James and I, with others) to set something out that will give it legs for the Clubs.

We have two classes - GT12.1 based on kits costing less than £100 allowing hop-ups and home-made parts, and GT12.2 based on kits costing less than £100 with nothing allowed that is not in the kit, no carbon and no diffs. Drivers can choose which one they want to enter, but not both on the same race day.

GT12.1 kits can include carbon-fibre parts providing they are included in the kit and the kit costs less than £100. Diffs and other hop-ups are allowed, and parts can be modified and have home-made bits added. It's like GT12 racing on the same basis as 12th Circuit, with the exception of the kit price limit and that carbon parts are only those sold with the kit. GT12.2 kits must cost less than £100, contain no carbon parts or a diff, and have to be raced kit-standard without hop-ups or home-made parts - run what's in the box.

Both classes can use either G2-2010/4.8v or 13.5/1S combos at Nationals. Motors and batteries from the BRCA lists for 13.5/1S. There's a few bits of tidying up to do on individual dimensions, including wing sizes. Both GT12.1 and GT12.2 will run in the same heats, no separate heats for these classes at present. We've made provision for them to be split up when entries go over 20.

Bodyshells will be approved by the Committee and can be picked from a list. The old 12th body Rules will apply - must be a realistic representation of a GT car - and we will be working with all the body manufacturer's on that.

James Garrett will be the GT12 rep on the Committee. Give James and me a couple of weeks to straighten out all the Rules and then they will go up on the BRCA website.

Thank you everyone who has helped shape these Rules, and especially to those who attended the meeting today and worked so well together to get a set of Rules that were passed by good majorities in every case. This isn't the end, it is only the beginning. If we've got something really wrong, we'll put it right with the consent of the drivers during the season. As the years roll by, I feel sure that these Rules will evolve to reflect what the drivers want to do with new ideas and new technologies, as well as keeping the competition close and fun.

Having 2S rules 'for the clubs' but not allowing them at Nationals is no different from not having any rules at all regarding 2S. Clubs are free to modify BRCA regs to their own requirements already, so regardless of the rules clubs do and will use 2S batteries.

yes but now there will be a set of 2s rules for clubs to follow IF they chose to

Can't help but think that despite the amount of effort put in by James, this is a token rule only. A club can run 8 AA cells and a brushed 380 motor in Mardave if they wish - they do not need a BRCA recommendation to do it. Unless there is a class at Nationals with 2S I don't see much point creating a rule for it.
Perhaps someone who was there can comment - do the BRCA see this as a 'testing the water' rule? I.e. if a lot of clubs adopt 2S then maybe next year there will be a class at National events run to those rules?

That's a bit patronising, isn't it? I'll try not to patronise you when telling you why your post is badly informed. Here's why...

There is no equivalence between 2S and 1S at all - nada, zilch, nowt. However hard we have tried with classes of pan cars, we have learnt the hard way that on certain tracks you need 2S and on others you need 1S. The last thing we need to do is create a situation where people wanting to race at Nationals have to have two cars. Additionally, the testing done so far was with motors claiming to have 'zero' timing built in. That's not the case with all motors on the BRCA 21.5 list. The meeting discussed this and it was stated that if the 21.5 motor used had additional timing it would be faster than a 1S combo, and that the 2S cars had more lift out of the turns. Whilst we all appreciated the work James put in, and the excellence of his presentation of the proposal, the meeting realised that we did not want to repeat the mistakes of the past by trying to run 1S and 2S in the same class and pretending they are equivalent.

Equally, a lot of people have invested a lot of time and money in the Rules for 2011/2012 which were for 1S LiPo/4-cell NiMh. Why would we make them invest all over again by allowing 2S/21.5 which we know will eventually wipe the floor with a 1S? That's not a good thing to do to a class we are trying to get off the ground as cost-effective, competitive and fun. The problem is not the cells, it is running the speedos with a 1S cell. We need to solve the 'booster' problem, not the cell problem.

Of course a Club can run what it likes, that is what Clubs are for. Nonetheless, it is because there are BRCA Rules that people can go out and buy kit knowing it will allow them to race with anyone, anywhere in the same class. All Clubs use BRCA Rules all the time!! Many Clubs want to use variations on those Rules that have been put together for them, and so it was decided to put some Rules in the GT12 Section for them to use. If you allow any 21.5 motor in a mixed 1S/2S class, eventually everyone will have to run 2S to be competitive. I don't think forcing that investment on your Club members is your best plan to keep a healthy Club. My firm advice to any Club wanting to use 1S and 2S cars in the same races is to find a 21.5 motor that is equivalent on your club circuit, specify it and no other, and then stick to it.

If you don't want to use them, then don't. But please do not assume that because your Club is able to effectively set up a class for AA batteries and 380 motors, then everyone is. Just because you don't see the point doesn't mean there isn't one, it just means you can't see it. (Bugger - failed in my mission not to be patronising...)

2S is not an equivalent to 1S and can never be. We put the Rule in so that Clubs can have something to help them get 2S cars into their Club nights if they they feel more people will enjoy what is a very competitive and close class that is fun to drive.

We are not testing any water - it has already been tested and it's contaminated. It is there for Clubs to use if they wish, and for the GT12 Committee to bring it in as a stand-alone class in the future if they wish. No rule is token. If a rule is there it can be used, it it isn't it can't. HTH :)

Clubs can run whatever they like but bigger championships, such as the Ardent series for example, do adopt BRCA rules and having a rule specifying the motors and batteries allowed means there's a 2S standard so easier to have consistent rules.

No use turning up with full size 2S lipo packs if the new rules specify using micro size lipos, or vice versa.

Ok, SlowOne, I wasn't trying to be patronising at all. There was a reason my posts were slightly questioning - because I was hunting for further information from people like you who have the knowledge on why the decisions were made. Thanks for giving the info while patronising me back - I'll consider the favour returned.
Saying there is no equivalence between 1S and 2S whatsoever is potentially equally patronising to the group of people who may believe that simply to not be the case.

While I fully understand a rule has been made and it is final, I might add that it seems slightly strange that the rules specifiy equipment that is commonly known to still have issues. As you rightly point out, the 'booster' issue. My view is that the potential for this class is huge, and far greater from the sea of people countrywide in possesion of 2 cell equipment than the relative few with 1S stuff - many of whom also have 2S electronics for other cars anyway. Batteries also are a secondary problem as I'm aware of more failures for 1S than 2S. Largely in my opinion because a 1S car running at the same average pace as a 2S car will draw roughly twice the current from the battery, something which will not benefit it's life and will increase the chance of failure. Usually under charging when someone under time pressure is ramping up the charge rate because they are having to charge at a much higher current for the same reason.

Your experience of 1S is unusual, sorry to hear that. In four seasons of running 1S in a 12th car with more demanding current requirements than Mardave, I have yet to hear of a cell failure or short life in a 1S used in a 12th Modified car, and we are talking 4.5 motors that draw 5000mAh in a single race! Compared to a Touring Car or Buggy, the current draw in a 1S is not high - a Modified motor in a TC or Buggy will draw more than a 1S cell in a Modified 12th car. 1S cells are just the same as 2S cells - they use the same single cells so the individual cell performance is equivalent from both. Remember that 1S cells are actually 1S2P, just as 2S cells are usually 2S2P, and a GT12 car is only using a 13.5 with no timing boost.

Since the 2S cells most people have are a tight squeeze in a GT12, it seems to me less likely that people will use cells from their TC or Buggy. This cell will screw the weight distribution in the car anyway, so it won't handle as well. James's proposal was illustrated with 2S shorty cells and the 2S cells used by the micro boys. He didn't test any car using a standard 2S cell.

Whichever way you cut this, to use 2S people will be buying a new cell. Arguably the best cell is the Yokomo 2S which is in the same case size as a 1S, since it will drop straight in to a standard car. Agreed most people have 2S equipment, which is what makes me say that the problem is the booster, not the cell. Once someone comes up with a simple booster at a good price, the 2S problem goes away. Now there is more demand, someone will do it eventually.

There are no issues with 1S cells, and no issues using receiver packs or boosters with 1S cells. Over 30 different GT12 racers at the Nationals used 1S cells and either a '1S' compatible speedo, a receiver pack or a booster. We had no failures. Your experience is unusual, and everyone should know that we would not have chosen 1S if there were problems. Over 150 12th racers have been using it for the last four years with no problems. Similarly, you won't find posts on any of the worldwide forums complaining about 1S cell problems. SMC cells are priced very competitively (£35) and are a top cell used by many. I hope people are re-assured that 1S is reliable.

Since the GT12 car draws about 1500mAh in a race, re-charging at 1C can take no more than 15 or 20 minutes, plenty of time between heats even at a club evening. One of our GT12 racers ran five consecutive Nationals, both days, using one 1S cell. It was only five because he forgot his cell at the last National! There is no need to charge above 1C (BRCA and manufacturer's recommendation) to get the car ready again for the next race.

I hope that gives people the information they need to make their decision. I do understand that people will find putting a 2S cell into a GT12 will make their lives simpler. However, no one should pretend that there is any equivalence to 1S, because there isn't. We will see how this pans out over time. If it turns out that 2S thrives and 1S dies, then we have the Rule in place and can change the GT12 National class to 2S. Let the people decide! HTH :)

Well put. I see the argument from both sides, however in this case I still feel I fall on the side of everyone NOT currently racing, i.e. I'm not one of the 150 people who have been doing the Nationals for the last 4 years.
I wonder what cells drivers are actually using in their battery though. I haven't bought or used a 2s2p pack in many years now. I didn't realise they were actually BRCA legal. Much harder to keep balanced and more likely to fail on charge. I certainly didn't think 1S packs were 1s2p, if so I am less surprised still at the failures I am aware of. A friend of mine destroyed the front of his KO transmitter at a recent 1/12th national when a 1S pack went up in smoke, in a LiPo sack while on charge. I do not mean to sound like I think all this gear is ridiculously unreliable of course, don't want to put anyone off at all.

Quick question, I think I know the answer, but just wondering if it could be confirmed officially quickly.

The brushless motor is going to be the 13.5, but is it safe to assume that will be with a blinky speedo.

I know the full rules are being written and should be available in a couple of weeks, but I think those in the know perhaps assumed it will be blinky as that was what was raced last year, and therefore that is where all the data came from.

from the proposal as presented at the 12th section EGM, April 2012

so looks like no Tekins, LRP/Nosram V2 etc

Tekin on 223 can be locked into blinky to comply with this rule.

I would say it probably won't be allowed as the Tekin is not a “Stock” / “Sportsman” / or “Spec Racing” esc

So it is slightly different to what I thought. Blinky not allowed, but speedo with no timing capability available if that makes sense.

Also notice the Hobbywing example is only the justock, not extreme stock or 1s in blinky mode, again reinforces the no blinky option.

Could mean a few people buying speedo's as most people will have timing capable speedo's that they run blinky software on which are not allowed.

Not sure what the rule is trying to do, but it may stop cross platform racing, unless your willing to invest in an esc specific for the class. I know my local club, we have started running 'mardaves' and have left it to mardave size wheels and tyres and mardave size shells, as for us, it is a winter thing and we just want to have fun and not contrained by rules.

Interesting, according to Tekin, the 223 firmware is referred to as "spec mode", now I guess it will need to be clarified who defines what is a "spec" speed controller.

Big Event "LockOut" Spec Mode, locks the ESC into Spec Mode and cannot be changed without plugging back into a HotWire. Factory Reset does NOT turn LockOut mode off. LockOut Spec mode indicated by led's 3, 4 and 5 flashing.

Well, if you are going to use such a rule, ROAD run a list of homologation esc's

See, here's the problem with the internet - people assuming that they know what they are talking about and everyone else believing them. Boy am I glad CFR wasn't elected PRO - lucky escape for the Section!! :D :D

This is what was proposed, and passed, at the EGM.

4 Definition of a Zero-timing Speed Controller
4.1 Speed controllers may not be equipped with any form of automatic or programmable timing advance. If this feature is available on the particular speed controller it must be disabled and placed in an approved mode - i.e. the "ROAR blinking LEDs mode." Brushless Speed Controllers built without automatic or programmable timing advance will be allowed. The BRCA 12th Committee will provide a list of eligible speed controllers. Details of the requirement for the approved mode are contained in Appendix 2 – Zero-Timing Brushless Speed Controllers – and this requirement must be met for a speed controller to be eligible for racing in relevant GT12 Classes.
4.2 When using a sensorless speed controller/brushless motor combination Rule 4.1 does not apply.
4.3 Brushed Speed controllers are without restriction providing that they include an operating reverse function and are available with a recommended retail price not exceeding £65.

4.3 is a carry over from a long-standing rule to keep costs down. With the availability of things like the HW Justock speedo (£40 and very good) and the TQ booster (£20) the BL side of things can easily dip under that price. The Appendix referred to is the strict 'scientific' definition of a no-timing speedo which is used by ROAR. The BRCA EB is currently developing the testing regime to that we can eventually have a BRCA list and not rely on the ROAR one.

The classes of racing for 2012/13 season call for use of speedos conforming to that Rule, so it is 'no-timing-on-the-fly' (NTOTF) for the GT12 Circuit class and you can use any speedo that can be locked in that mode as defined in the ROAR list. Note that means Tekins using 223 software, not 202 or 212, with three LEDs blinking in neutral.

Blinky speedos are allowed, and for the very reason that we do want cross-platorm racing. GT12 is not forsaking the lo-cost ideal that Wes Raynor started with all those years ago. Whilst Circuit Racing does not embrace the 'lowest-cost' regime so successfully used in Oval classes, we don't want people to have to spend a lot of money to go circuit racing with pan cars on foam tyres. We can't please all the people all the time, but it is hoped that we will please all the posters in the last few days - except CFR in this case!! - who want to use equipment they already have. Please come back with more questions, I'll help where I can. HTH :)

That sounds sensible.

just getting back into 12th curcit racing (last time I raced them it was nimh on the brushed silver can motor ) so am I right in reading
any speedo as long as it has a "BLINKY" setting ?
and 13.5t motor from the elec board list ? although I did read somewhere but ashamed to say dont know where that there is a 13.5t/1s motor list but I cannot find it anywhere

thanks for al the info makes good reading and great help in getting back into the class :thumbsup:

http://www.gifstop.com/images/eyes/blinking.gifesc, looks like anything goes

13.5
http://www.brca.org/sites/default/fi...12D%20pdf1.pdf

Which bit of "The BRCA 12th Committee will provide a list of eligible speed controllers. Details of the requirement for the approved mode are contained in Appendix 2 – Zero-Timing Brushless Speed Controllers – and this requirement must be met for a speed controller to be eligible for racing in relevant GT12 Classes." is it that people don't understand??!!! :wtf:

how can anything go when the Rules call for something that complies with a list of approved speedos?? :wtf:

Rcdunk - yes, the speedo must either be incapable of having timing programmed, or be on this list. If you have any queries, please PM me and I'll get them answered for you. HTH :)

It's good to see so many people giving the GT12 class a go. With the variety of cell and motor combos being talked about, I would be interested in some feedback about relative speeds, tyre wear, ease of driving, etc. As I said before, these Rules are a place to start not a final destination. Anything we know to help point to the future... helps point to the future! :)

pete hobby wing 1s ok?

cool good to know that helps
next question is is there a uk importer for the hobbywing / ezrun stuff ? or a uk shop that sells them
I have seen them on e bay buy cannot do with the import duty crap and delay unless I have to lol

Mark, yes, the Hobbywing 120A 1S v2.1 is fine, it is on the list along with all the eligible HW speedos here. Make sure you load the right software so that the red LED (buried in the side of the speedo!) blinks at neutral - that's the one to have to comply with the 'blinky' rule. Got a feeling I'm teaching you to suck eggs now!!

RCDunk, there is a shop that will stock the HW stuff, I just can't remember what it's called!! I'll find out and post again.

I don't want to open old wounds (!) but the HW range of speedos is ideal for this class. I am going to try a Justock at around £40. However, you will need a booster. These work well and are well priced from AMC. On the HW speedos, set it up with a 2S cell by downloading the 'blinky' software. Make certain that you choose 'no protection' for the voltage cut-off (even unplug it all, plug it in again and check) and then re-set to your radio.

Now, remove the red wire from the receiver plug, and tape it back to the receiver lead so it is insulated. Plug in the booster (it is always on, no switch) and then use the speedo switch to turn the car on and off. Since you don't need to change the software, this works fine. If you want to use the program box, unplug the booster, replace the red wire in the receiver and then do as normal with a 2S cell plugged in. The same procedure applies if you are using a receiver pack. If the receiver pack or booster (e.g. RC Dynamics) has a switch, both switches must be on to run the car. My eternal thanks to Gavin Clinch for telling me how to do this - blatant ad for Gavgrafix shells alert!! - Gav sprays a mean shell...

I know it sounds like a faff, but anyone can do it with the standard booster. There is a better way of doing it (but you have to be able to modify the booster output wires and fit a switch) so that you can use the program box at any time. If someone wants to do that please ask and I'll tell you how. If people think there is a need for a simple solution, I am happy to make up harnesses that will fit the booster directly and plug into the existing system. Please ask; this 2S thing is a bit of a non-event in my opinion, it just needs people to know how to sort out the booster and you're running on 1S.

As always, any of the current LRP and HW speedos that work with a 1S cell will do the job without a booster or receiver pack. HTH :)

Duncan, here's the shop.

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/index.php

This is the one I was thinking of...

http://shop.cpdracing.co.uk/

Chris and the team will be getting HW products soon, so keep an eye on their stock. These are car guys through and through, so you can get advice and back-up.

I hope you are going to say yes to the following
That my bd v3 is going to be legal

If you had followed the link in post 36, you would have found it on the list - lazy toad!!

v2.1 or higher, profile 1, LED blinks blue. If yours does that you're in, if not, get out the plastic and buy another speedo!! :p :D :D