210 rear camber ?
 

Watching the 210's going round Chadderton today, I'm wondering about the lack of negative camber change throughout the rear suspension travel.

When the car corners hard, the outer wheel is pushed to significant positive camber. This looks all wrong to me as the cars go round and could be a major factor in the 'slidy' cornering many people are experiencing on this track as only part of the tyre is in contact with the track.

Could someone who understands this stuff please explain why the 210 has so little camber change compared with other 2WD buggies ?

You can change the setup to make sure that the car does not go to positive camber by changing the camber link positions and using different amounts of negative camber. I would say it is very early setup wise for the 210 and they will change and adapt over the first year after the car has been released.

Yes it's early days, thing is lots of people I spoke to are having the same setup problem - lack of rear end grip and / or the back end pivoting around mid corner.

There's very little set up flexibility on the rear camber as the inner link just fixes to the chassis / gearbox and you can add or subtract washers - that's it !

On most other 2WD cars the camber links connect to the shock tower and you have lot's of options to change the geometry - as well as the link on the hub.

On the 210 - what's the link / washer setting to get the most negative camber change over the suspension travel as I think this is what I need looking at every other 2WD car.

Hi Andy, I know its more money but put a set of the discounted Dboots on for the next Chadderton meeting and you will be wanting to get rid of grip on the rear!

Discounted? Where from?

Hi Damo - Front and back - or just back ?

Sam - The Dboots tyres are cheaper when you buy them at Chadderton :)

I changed from Schumacher minipins to dBoots in round 4 and put in my quickest time of the day.

They defo had more grip on the rear whilst the front's felt more forgiving, making the car feel really balanced.

Ill be using dBoots front and rear for the remaining rounds.

In terms of camber change, you can lower the inner ball stud all the way down and shorten the link by using the inner hole on the hub.

The hubs have plenty of holes to change camber length so there isnt really any need for extra inner holes.

If you do create more camber change by lowering/shortening the rear link, the car will feel locked in initially but when it does break free it will do so in a snappy way. Higher inner link/longer link will make the car slide in a more progressive way, making it easier to control.

Cheers Craig.

Were they new tyres ?
Also, what rear camber link setting did you run - it's hopefully the last piece of the jigsaw for me as I finally managed to 'race' the car around - but still felt the mid corner rotation, which I really don't like !

Thanks.
Andy

These are the tyres:


http://www.rcdisco.com/part-info.php?partNo=DB10022A

http://www.rcdisco.com/part-info.php?partNo=DB10024A

http://www.rcdisco.com/part-info.php?partNo=DB1002RA

There not a new compound, they were released last year and i used them in 4wd at the previous Chadderton series.

I had a 3mm washer under the inner ball stud and was on the next to last outer hole on the hub.

Ill post my set up sheet on the website this week.

Great - thanks Craig.

What inserts do you use with the dboots tires?

That may make sense: The contact details/adress of Dboots are the same as Team Durango and Arrma, so my guess is they are actually the same company. If that's the case, then probably the Dboots were tested mostly on Durangos, and as such a Durango may perform slightly better in some cases with some Dboots, or the other way around? :confused:

D boots where also ran on a vega and c4.1 with improved grip.

I understand that they would increase grip on any car, that's not my point. I'm trying to say the DEX210 and the Dboots may have been developed to suit each other best (not providing the highest grip of course, but providing the best amount of grip for certain surfaces resulting in the best possible lap times).

Has anyone tried the new softer B compound Terrabyte dBoots at Chadderton, or have you all been running the harder A compound?

I've tried them at Formby (low/medium grip carpet) and they certainly give more grip than the A compound and Schuy minipins. The only problem is they wore out pretty quickly. Having said that I've now got an almost bald set and the grip seems to be still quite good as I guess with their very soft compound they are acting more like slicks.

Ok, I'm confused now !

I've tried setting the rear of the car up to get the most camber change over the suspension travel.

I've set the camber at 2.0 degrees when the car is stood (no suspension compression)
When the rear is compressed its still as near as damn it 2.0 degrees and is constant throughout the suspension travel.

The thing is ive tried long and short rear links (not changed washers inboard) and its the same result regardless of link length ! 2.0 degrees throughout the entire travel.

So what's the point in having 4 pick up points on the hub if they produce as near as damn it the same geometry ?

Confused.

Hey Andy
as i understand it you will get the camber change from the inner link height the lower the link the more the camber will change (negative) as the suspension works, i think !

Yeah, I think that's how it's supposed to work.
Still confused why there are 4 hub holes and they appear to make no change over the suspension travel ?

You should get more camber change with a shorter link Andy

Hi Sam.

That's what I thought, but on the 210 it seems like the geometry is setup for minimal drive shaft plunge, regardless of link length. The result of this is very little camber change regardless of hub / link position.

I'll try lowering the inner link, it's only 2 washers though, can't go any lower than removing them !

Lower the inside and put washers under the hub ballstud to increase the angle

Put very simplistically
Longer links = more roll. Ie feel softer in the corner
Shorter links = less roll. Ie feel stiffer in the corner

Take a turnbuckle of set length and move both inner and outer ball further out the more rotation u will get.
The further in u move said link the more the rear end will feel locked in


Ball height is what alters camber change
The lower the inner ball / the higher the outer ball the more camber change u will have.
As regards camber change the main objective for this is to stop the wheel outer wheel going positive in roll mid corner
Ie when the car is cornering and is rolling over and putting its weight over the outer rear wheel u don't want that wheel to have positive camber at that point.
You can't measure this correctly but u can guess u are in the right ball park by turning the front wheels left then grabbing the car at the rear and twisting the car to the right to simulate weight transfer then see if the right rear wheel has not got positive camber. If your wheel has positive camber u need more change


Hope this helps

Hi Steve.

Superb answer :)

Pretty much qualified what I thought re the positive camber issue mid corner.

Watching the 210's going around Chadderton, the rear end looks really odd as you can clearly see this positive camber issue !

It's what I originally posted about, and what I was seeking a remedy for.

I agree with what steve has said, but just to add, if you move a short rear link more inboard at both the hub and tower, when the back end does let go you will need the reactions of a jedi to catch it. I tried this on my x2c at worksop. Off power the back end didnt want to roll at all and pushed massively. When i tried to throttle on hard(ish) coming out of a corner though, the car was trying its best to swap ends. (probably ok when grip is high)
If i use a shorter rear link i always go lighter on oil and springs as the short link makes it feel stiffer IMO
I would be happy to here from someone more knowledgable than me if i am wrong. I love these sort of threads because i learn loads from them.

interesting,iv been really struggling with my car(not a durango)at worksop along with others with the same car,and on med grip,it does the same and will spin out,i thought going stiffer on the rear would make it worse,i find the car needs to driven hard to get the grip,as soon as the grip goes and you have to drive slower it doesnt handle the same,not sure if this is due to the solid ali chassis,on high grip its awsome,if i bang a new set of tires on its ok but i want to try and get more mechanical grip to the rear as the tires give up grip quite quickly

going harder will make it worse. I was just experimenting at the last round because i had some glitching issues preventing me from qualifying anywhere decent. I used the chance to have a play and see what happens instead.
I normally like to run a longer link at the rear because it feels more predictable and allows more roll. Ive always been told not to change the link lengths too much from front to rear as well because one end stops the other from doing its job properly.

Had a play with the 210 rear and basically what I've found is that with the washers in place in the inner link, the rear camber change is negligible to my eye and camber gauge.

Removing both washers gives the car an additional 2 degrees of negative camber when the rear suspension is fully depressed.

So my car is set on the bench with 2 degrees on the rear, and under full compression it's 4 degrees. No way I can see to alter it to get more camber change.

I would have thought that the stock setup with 2 washers shouldn't work too well as there is no camber change as the car corners ? This tallies with what Steve mentioned in his post about weight transfer / positive camber during cornering.

I've taken the washers out and I'll see how it goes without them.

For the record, (I know it's a very different car)

My X6, with x speed hangers and the longest rear link, with the car at 2 degrees camber on the bench, isn't far off 6 degrees when the suspension is fully depressed.
I know it grips like shit to a blanket...

thanks for clearing that up,ill give the longer link ago and see how it goes:thumbsup: