Foam Tyres - the great debate
 

First let me start by saying I fully understand the clubs view about not wanting a big debate over this but I think a discussion is warranted over this subject. I've started a new thread as not to dilute the offical statement.

I believe Simon should be congratulated for a very innovative idea that will save the average club racer a fortune and compromise nothing in doing so, in fact looking at Simons performance I'm sure he'll agree there is a performance benefit. To buy a pair of 8th on road tyres and cut them costs £6.50 for the pair. That does both ends of the car, add the wheels at lets say £5 an end and thats £16.50 for the season in tyres.

Now lets contrast that to what we're now faced with, these are general rounded figures, tyres, £7.50 rear, £6.50 front, wheels £10 set, inserts £2 a pair. So to go racing on rubber costs £28 a set x 6 rounds and we're looking at £168 per season if we only us 1 set a day (some people were using 2 sets due to high tyre wear). That could be a saving of £151.50! And lets think of those doing 2 classes, £35 in foam, £336 in rubber, thats a £301 cost saving!

I'm not trying to get at anyone or upset anyone but real cost saving innovation, and it is innovation, should be encouraged in these tough financial times. Its not beyond anyone to make a set of these up so I really do not see an issue. Some will use additive? I don't think that risk would be any greater than it is now with rubber. Look at touring cars, they run rubber and have a staggering choice of additives. In fact the buggy guys at Ribble run certain ones on Mini Pins at because it extents the life of the tyre by another 2 meetings. That said I do understand the issue and you'd have to trust us that we aren't going to be idiots and spoil it for ourselves and I'd support anyone caught is banned for life from the club. Should be enough incentive not to do it.

If anyone has reasons why they wouldn't want to enjoy such a saving and performance, Simons car was on rails, I'd be interested to hear about it. Like wise I'd be interested in all thoughts.

as i see it theres no debate there not allowed end of,
of road car off road tires

Agreed.
Got to respect the club decision, live with it. Or we could be faced with a control tyres and we don't want that.

BTW im using pre used tyres which Id normally bin. Used Minipins and minispikes, as long as yellow compound work well.

Chris I agree we have to support the clubs decision and adhere to it but its got to be worth the discussion. I found my tyres got worse round by round and while I accept its the cost of racing, if we could avoid it....

I don't really agree with the "off road car so off road tyres". If that was to truely hold water it would have to be "off road cars so race them outside off road not indoor on the mostly flat".

I know this thread isn't going to change the minds of the officals and nor should it but provided its a constructive well meaning discussion I see no harm in having it. I mean if parliment can debate something that was never going to happen why shouldn't we.

:thumbsup:

Rationally, your "debate" doesn't hold water because using the same rationale onroad cars should only compete outdoors as well.
When was the last time you saw any indoor 1:1 race (flat or not flat)?

Then, when you factor in that most offroad guys don't have tyre-truers, while overlooking the added investment to do so, the added cost of what you're suggesting makes your original argument totally invalid.

And frankly, once the rules have been decided (what's good for one is good for all, as the rules are the same for all) all you're doing by bringing it up is stirring the pot and trying to start an argument and not "well meaning" at all nor are they doing anyone any good - being as any said "discussions" on the topic were not only likely had prior to the decision, but that's when it's time for those discussions.
After the fact, save it and bring it up next year.

If you're wanting to bring politics, or parliament, into it - then pull on your wig and argue with yourself in the mirror. :p

They were quicker, so by allowing them the handful who'd first use them would cause the rest to follow or literally drop several finals (or stop attending). So to allow them is forcing an unofficial control tyre, forcing the spending of money. As it is we can choose to use new rubber tyres (yes, expensive), or use worn tyres leftover from elsewhere.

Simon was told he couldn't use foam tyres at Southport too, so im told. Not sure of it is relevant. #justsaying

On the subject of part worns, ive found them to be more consistent than new. New tyres have taken atleast 1 round to 'come-in'. I also know many racers will use tyres at Worksop, then re-use them here for that reason, so costing £0 to use rubber tyres.

In red Chris,

Who and when was i ever told i couldnt use them at Southport?

The batley crew have made the decision and thats fine.

:blush:Sorry Si I seem to be wrong. I was watching you and somebody said, can't recall who, so its hearsay.

Very much hearsay,
but since i asked if i could use foams and the answer at the time was yes, i used them.

Which is fair enough you've done nowt wrong.

as you say if they work, there faster and cheap and could guarantee no use of additives everyone would be on em including Matty, but we cant so as i said pointless talking about it,weve used them in the past many moons ago,but didnt feel there in line with a offroad car, so stopped using them,

Guys , I think we are losing sight that this is toy car racing. That is why its is being done indoor. Be it off road or on road, why should it be so critical what tyres we use when they'd save us a fortune, give a great days racing and are accessable to everyone.

Someone mentioned rules, Simon asked if he could run them and was told yes, there is no tyre rule. So the rules have been set for everyone, we could have all turned up with foams, it was only Simon who had the sense and forsight to do so.

Chris, I think we already have an unoffical tyre control, you have to have good yellow mini's. I know you used part worns but can you honestly say you couldn't have gone quicker with a new scrubbed set?

So thats why while respecting the decision of the club to introduce a tyre policy I think it is worth talking about this, and of course its well meaning, we're all grown ups and understand its not going to change. Its also why I left this thread until they had made a decision.

Finally, at Kayce, the parliment comment was obviously a joke, I wasn't bringing politics into anything but when was the last time you saw a politician wearing a wig? I think you're getting politicians confused with barristers in the law courts:D

Only just read this, quite a while after seeing how well the foams went at Chadderton.

Personally I'm a bit disappointed as I too saw a fantastic money saving tyre alternative.

As said, this is 'Toy Car' racing, the whole off road comments are nonsense IMO, most of the floor was very, very flat, and it sure as hell wasn't offroad :)

Also, you wouldn't need a tyre truer !! Back in the day I ran foams indoors, you just chop em down and stick em on.

We all know you need decent tyres to be competitive, tyres are today one of a drivers biggest expenses, shame we are not taking the opportunity to save ourselves a shed load of cash.

Glad I read this before I ordered a couple of sets of foams for the next round...

AndyS

"most of the floor was very, very flat, and it sure as hell wasn't offroad"


Thanks mate, we spent 2 hours on Saturday morning building that track and we thought we had put quite a good mix of off road elements into it.

Obviously not up to your standard then.

Please feel free to turn up on Saturday 19th November and help out building an off road track:p

I run foams the other week at ribble mainly due to tyre costs so thought I would give them ago. I did not like them running a 5.5t motor in a lazer car was all over the place although they seem to work well on lower motor 2wds for some reason:confused:

Damo

Never said the track wasn't good :)

I just think the 'off road' comments are nonsense, mini pins for example are mainly an indoor tyre. By 'off road' I was referring to the outdoor nature of our hobby, not the specific track features.

I always help build Batley tracks on Sunday race days, but getting Saturday morning off too with 3 small kids to look after would cause a divorce...

I appreciate it lots when other people sort the track out as I know it's not easy - so thank you for that.

Just liked the idea of buying one set of tyres for the whole series :)

The problem with foams as I see it is where does it end?

I would buy them, then i would buy additive to make them even grippier then you could buy softer compounds and on and on and on.

My reason for going racing is to control a car on a slippy surface and control the slides and test my skill at that against the other drivers.

Foams are for touring cars on flat tracks as you noted in your original comments.

I appreciate there is a cost to buying tyres but last Sunday on my 4WD I had to run used spikes left over from the outdoor series, so you don't HAVE to buy them.

In 2WD I tried spikes and minipins and was outqualified by Lee Fraser who was running spikes all day and he reckoned the more worn they were the better grip they gave.

In the end the club has made a decision, nobody has complained about running normal off road tyres for the previous three years at Chadderton so I don't see why it would be different now?

Fair comments Damo.

So the nightmare I had with my 210 was down to my tyres being half decent, when they should be jiggered :)

Are the 'slick' rubber tyres that are in the Durango thread banned too then, as they looked like another very cost effective option ?

Yup :thumbsup: and yet this seems to be an argument that's brewed up every year at this time of year when everyone moves indoors for the winter.

And the problem with any of the "arguments" is that first some guy comes along and suggests his cheap foam way is the best.
So everybody has to run out and buy foams they don't have, to copy what the first guy did.
Then another guy comes along and he finds a better way, that probably costs more, and the first guy whines.
Then yet another guy comes along and his way trumps everyone elses, he starts winning races, and everyone else starts using that method (while the first two guys are still whining) - and everyone else realizes they made an outlay for three sets of tires (each one faster than the last) and it never ends.
And you've got Tyre Wars.

Meanwhile if everyone's running rubbers, tires they all have access to, it ends up being cheaper for everyone over the long run.

Hi Andy, I found at Chadderton which was the first time I ran the 210, I could make it really safe and consistent but a tad understeery with spikes or I could make it somewhat twitchy and it felt faster with minipins.

In the end the pins were slightly faster in that I was on 13 laps 3 seconds with spikes and with pins I got into the 14 laps 18 seconds.

I am sure with more set up time we can make both tyre combo's faster it just takes a bit of trial and error.

Come over next time and we will try some different setups, I already have another change I want to make to my car to increase rear grip which is giving it maximum toe in on the hubs, but I don't want to lose steering so i am going to play with less castor.

I can see both sides of the argument on this one.

Would it not be simpler and more cost effective to have a control tyre, and for a nominated manufacturer to offer their tyres at a reduced rate for competitors?. Meaning reduced costs for us, eradicating the "which tyre saga" and providing a good marketing opportunity for the chosen brand?

Maybe its not as simple as this in real life i don't know as i have no experience of organizing meetings, just my opinion.:confused:

I think if it does become a controlled tyre event theres only Schumacher mini pins and mini spikes i think thats what most people are running anyway or the DBoots terrabites or the new one there bringing out

The current method is probably cheapest for the majority, as racers can use their tires elsewhere, and generally the tires that work are readily available to everyone.

Regarding foams, I'm pretty sure it would soon become expensive. You would soon find that as they wear they become better, so you'll start truing new tires down to the optimum diameter, which will then wear down past the optimum and you'll need a new set next week.

You've got the possibility of chunking tires and ruining a set in a matter of minutes, never mind meetings. And the addative thing can't be controlled by Ifmar at a worlds meeting, so how do you expect a club run by very few volunteers with no real scrutineering to manage it? And someone will try it because we're all competitive at heart, and it will provide an advantage.

Finally they make a shed load of mess from what I've seen!

Or we could just have a open tyre choice and use whatever we like.

I agree with Kayce, we are likely to follow the quickest option but in that given example we have all only bought 3 sets of tyres at less than the cost of rubber tyres.

What could happen now is someone turn up with 6 new sets and run a new set every run. I doubt this would happen but it could and if its was faster where would that leave us? Worksop have a control tyre but they don't limit the amount of sets used.

Foams where a great cheap idea and they've been banned without any consultation with the racers. I'm sure if a vote where to be had at the next round it would be very close. But leaving that aside, then to say they have to be spiked tyres to effectively ban the VBC rubber tyres, looks to me like we are being steered by commerical forces rather than looking after the racers and thats upsetting.

Damo on the point of additive, why don't you use rubber tyre additive on your mini pins, because its banned. We could easily keep that ban and enforcing it would be easy. By the way I too thought the track was really good, thanks very much for the effort and that goes to the club to. Its a really good event that I really enjoyed but I really can't understand this decision. If you like rubber and are happy with them, run rubber, if like me your tighter than cramp and want to save money, lets try foam. Each to there own.

Or to put it another way, you've turned up to 3 meetings with the wrong tires, so essentially you've actually wasted your money on the 3 sets of cheap tires and the fuel and entry fee to attend three meetings, quite a lot!!

Whereas how it is now, pretty much everyone knows what tires work, there all pretty close in terms of times, so you can tune your car using tiresfor personal preference, and you know you can turn up to the meeting with the correct set of tires, so no money wasted on entry or fuel :thumbsup:

The person cheating would be using a lot of kitchen towel. They have to be dried before used on the track to get the real benefit. But to control the use of additive, spot checks, are your tyres wet or damp? If so, sorry your out of the meeting and the series. I'd do that if needs be.

It sounds harsh but I'm sure it'd be incentive not to do it. I'm sure someone would say I ran it in the pits and knocked over some water, really an accident that covered all the tyres width with the same amount of liquid. Sorry no middle ground, you're gone.

I don't understand foams without additive been messy?

If it was really that simple to detect addative I'm sure the proffessionals of this industry wouldn't have problems detecting it at the worlds, but if you read any race report from the last 2-3 1/8th worlds you'll soon realise that the addative can't be tech'd without a complex machine.

In my very limited experience of foam tires, they generate a lot of black dust when they wear (regardless of addative), this has to go somewhere and be cleaned up by someone, another job for them very few club volunteers.

3 wasted sets? no, maybe not optimum but certainly better than rubber and they can be used in alot of clubs. In the northwest, Ribble valley, Roundabout and Southport are all local clubs that allow foam tyres. And at £6.50 a car set its still looking good. That 3 sets will allow racing till we go back outdoors around the end of March.

Tom, how many sets did you use at Chadderton and just out of interest how many do you think you'll use this weekend at Worksop?

If rubber is the way forward why don't we have a one set per day rule, what you use in practice is what says on all day. Mark them up after practice and away we go. At least that would minimise the cost.

The problem with marking up tires is that it requires a lot more effort on behalf of the club, which just doesn't have the man power. And people may have 2 or 3 part worn sets that they want to use in one day.

I use 1 set per meeting at Worksop and Chadderton, as do most of the A finalists that I'm aware of. The set I used at Chadderton has also done two club meetings a week since!!

At the worlds teams are going to great lengths to bring in tyres in sealed bags, pre dried and I agree, at that stage its very hard to detect. But it has to be applied every run and we are all pitting in a close environment. I think it would be easy because left to dry it would take hours, so you'll see people applying, having wet tyres sat and then drying. Thats how they sorted at the worlds, made everyone do all tyre prep in one room together. It became self policing.

Tyre dust, yes they do produce tyre dust like every tyre we use, rubber or foam. Have a look inside a touring car bodyshell after a run and you'll see masses of the stuff off rubber tyres. Its the same for buggys, it just doesn't have anywhere to settle.

I do agree I can't see an easy why of doing the tyre marking unless we made it part of booking in. We all queue up so couldn't we make that part of the process? I don't know but I can't understand why you'd want to use 2 or 3 worn sets in a day unless it was for a performance advantage?

I got the impression that the top drivers were using 2 sets, I spoke to one drivers who told me, a part worn set for practice, new for round 1 to 3 then another new set for round 4 and the finals.

Now if that is or does become common place...:(

Except for the fact, if reading all over literally everyone's running the same types of rubbers - and how many offroaders have foams, or a trueing machine?

I always luv this excuse, because it doesn't take into account that literally nobody races with several different clubs.

I and a good few at Chadderton race at all those clubs? (when the missus let me of course - I've needed to be good to play out on a Wednesday, Friday and Sunday!)

For the last time you don't need a tyre truer. Just stick them on, its really easy.

Cut them to width with knife. Stretch over wheel. Stick a screwdriver inbetween the tyre and wheel. pour in glue, rotate screwdriver around the wheel. Pull out screwdriver. Job done.

Trust me, marking up 120 sets of tires will take a while, and needs a dedicated person for the job.

People may have a part worn set from Worksop and another part worn set from chadderton the week before, instead of putting 1 new set on they might prefer to use both the part worn sets to save on money. You may start the day on pins, but then want to try spikes, there's a whole host of reasons of why you might want to use worn tires. Restricting everyone to A single set of tires almost ensures they have to have a new set.

I can 100% assure that I only used 1 set per meeting, as do the majority at worksop that im aware of. If your going to use more than 1 set you'd stagger them between meetings. So you start the day on a set, and put a new set on for round 4, then you'll use that set at the next meeting until round 3, then put a new set on for round 4. Works out a at 7 sets over 6 meetings.

You don't need one yet.... If foams were allowed and people found an advantage in truing tires they would do it!!

As an example, if foams were allowed, I'd probably turn up with 3-4 different sets to test different things (hardness, diameter, width). I wouldn't enjoy it, but if there was an advantage to be gained I'd try to find it. As it is at the minute I turn up with 1 set of tires and know I'm good to go for the day! The advantage to be gained at the minute comes from car setup and driver skill.

Well, that explains everything then - YOU want to only have to buy one set of tires to run at three tracks, meanwhile overlooking the other Batley guys that will have to go out and buy foams just to race you.

For the last time you do need a tyre truer. The last "stick 'em on, it's easy" guy died sometime back in the mid 1980s. :woot:


And it would turn into a tyre-buying contest - just like in 12th scale - with guys truing them down to thing little strips and making one-run tyres.... and then any supposed savings scenario goes right out the window with a bunch of tyre dust.

Hi Tom, from ear wigging trackside the control tire is going to be dBoots, so it seems your trying to defend something that your sponsor/boss won't like.
From reading and hearing trackside all this it appears that one person is to blame and that's who ever first started a complaint about the foams when the tires choice was open and permission was given to use them.
It appears to boil down to keep the sponsors happy and forget the drivers pockets.
Jake.

I wasn't aware that there was goin to be a control tire, my understanding was it was going to be an open tire event, so long as the tires are a rubber style spiked tire.

I'm trying to defend the choice to not accept foam tires, as I believe as a racer it will make the events less enjoyable, increas the costs and put people off attending.

If we were to accept foam tires I'd be running contact foams, a Schumacher based company, so that wouldn't be a problem, doesn't mean I think it's a good idea though.

The beauty of Chadderton, is that the surface doesn't require new tyres. I find new tyres slower than 1 runners, and those 1 runners last til the centre is literally bald.... so im using at round 2 the set I used at round 1, which had also been used at a club meeting before that.... and im not dissadvantaged by it. When this set of tyres #1 wear, I'll put some worn Minispikes on from outdoors... £0 additional cost incurred.... other racers must be doing same as me?

To allow foams, I would be dissadvantaged with rubber as would anybody else, I would feel obliged to use them to keep up costing me money.... likely id just not turn up though. Im sure others would feel the same. Im racing chadderton as its only costing me fuel and booking in, its a chilled out meeting, no hassle.

Control tyre I don't mind as long as they're rubber, Id buy them once, make them last like I do now.

Controlling numbers used is pointless here, as part worn tyres are of no dissadvantage. Let the racers use as many new as they want, they have no advantage. Controlling numbers used is only worth considering if using new gave a big advantage.

@ Total Newbie

dBoots are not the controlled tyre, there is no controlled tyre, they only support the meeting with discount at the track shop.

I used one set of tyres all day like Tom and I did this all last year, but from memory I think some people are racing at Worksop with one set and the using that set at Chadderton as I think there better at Chadderton warn (Nearly Bald).

Tony