TYRES
 

I will be racing on fresh grass with some bumps and wooden jumps.What i
woould like to know is I have the following tyres

1=sch mini spike yell for dry grass
2=sch mini spike green wet grass

now where do the new GRP cone spike and the ballistic mini spike pink&green fit into the above. And is it true that the GRPs are a better all round tyre.
THANKS,
MARTIN

hi
i found that the grp tyre has a really quick wear rate and they dont last long
hope this helps

In my experience I used GRP's for a whole day and it was nearly 8 complete runs before they lost grip, so although the spike wears down I think the tire still has good grip.

the GRP tyre is good on grass and as said it keeps the grip levels better than yellows as the tyre wears. There might be a new compound out shortly on a par with sch green for wet weather.

BB greens are ok on grass but not as quick as sch yellow in the dry. They do work fairly well in the wet grass though. Pinks you wouldn't really use much unless the track is very bare and dusty.

GRP's should be an alternative to Yellows so good for Dry Grass
BB Green Spikes will be better on wet grass in most cases, i'd usually them on the rear with Sch Green mini's on the front - you should have more traction then with Green mini's all round anyway i'd say.

BB Pinks are good on some Astro tracks, and also good if the grass wears away so the track is almost dirt...

I think the GRP's also work better in the transition between wet and dry, or just after a light shower.

I'm sure we've all been caught out on yellows in the damp, sometimes they are ok (usually if they are new), but are usually like being on ice! :thumbdown:

G

I 100% defo agree on this as this happened to me at Batley last year. You know if you're in a run and as soon as a single drop of rain comes, with yellows the run is over and they become a nightmare. Well the Conespikes don't do that, they are like a green and stay with you in terms of grip and balance.

So they are faster than a green in the dry and miles faster than a yellow in the wet. Faster than a yellow in the dry or a green in the wet? More testing will be needed ;)

With all the feed back on GRP Tyres, I wonder why they got deleted from Stotfolds preferd tyre choice for National.?? As I have been informed that this is the tyre they originally chose.

there were no sinister reasons, at Stotfold the choice was Schumacher yellows or greens, ballastics gave no advantage in any conditions and originally our intention was to specify a tyre that would work as an alternative, we had some limited testing of the GRP and found that it worked in the dry but was no better or worse than the schumacher, this we felt gave the racer an alternative, however with no wet compound in the GRP range there was no alternative if the track was wet. following discussions with the BRCA committee the options were to specify BB's which at least gave the racer two options for each weather scenario, we were also aware that we would be the only track specifying GRP for a national, we would have continued to spec that tyre if it was clearly better than the alternative, it wasn't so we decided to stick with BB's

If BB's are worse than Schumachers in any condition then there is really no alternative to run Schumachers is there?

However, if Schumacher/GRP was chosen then there would have been a choice to be had in dry conditions and no choice in wet conditions, therefore this option would have given the most choice to the racers.

Or have I got this all wrong? :confused:

I think schuamcher greens arent as good as BB greens in the wet on grass or astro. So i think ive got what tom is saying if they chose schuamcher and GRP there would only be schuamcher greens which means there is only one wet tyre which is okish but not great but with schuamcher and BB there are a good wet tyre and a good dry tyre.:thumbsup:

A

Did you read my post Ash? :confused:

It was stated that BB's offered no advantage in any conditions, therefore Schumachers would be run in wet or dry.

However if GRP/Schumacher was chosen we would still run Schumachers in the wet, BUT the racers would have a choice of tire to run in the dry of GRP or Schumacher.

On a related note, is it confirmed that GRP are working on a wet compound? Also, is it confirmed Schumacher will have a NEW tire mould? As I feel both of these questions should have been asked before tire choices were made.

Oh i get you i was talking in general about all tracks. I think your just talking abotu stotfold yes? if not ill just ge tmy coat and leave.

A

Ash, I'm talking about Stotfold as the original question was related to the tire selection for Stotfold National.

Having BB and schumy tires as the controls all the way through the National series is a good thing as it measns that drivers (and shops) attending only have to carry 4 types of tires (Schumy yellow / green BB green / pink) and it will cover all expected situations (option would be schumy blues I guess).

That means that for many people they can keep a full stock glued up, 2 and 4wd, new and worn with out having to stock a gazillion wheels / inserts bottles of glue.

If the alternative tires gave a significant advantage, enough to out weigh the issues some people would have getting wheels trackside etc., then I am sure we would see a wider variation on tire selection. Remember the not so good old days when we had to glue up 14 (18 if you thought you'd make the A) sets of BB pins for tivvy then the following month do nearly as many sets of Losi Sprints etc. for Kiddy ...... then the same again on schumy minis for a worn bone dry track that ripped them to bits in 4 mins ..... then again the next month when it was going to be different weather every 2nd run .... oh the fun ..... for the bank managers. A nightmare for budget concious racers and shop stocks alike!

I personally think where we have ended up today is a great palce to be .... can't believe that some regions don't run control tires .... seems crazy to me!!

If the GRP tires prove to be the better option then I expect to see them as controls for next year for some venues and look forward to using them .. their 1/8th tires are awesome.

On the other hand people have to think about BB and schumy who's tires are only really used in large quantities in the UK and specific parts of Europe ...... if these tires stopped being the control tires for these sort of events then think of the potential outcome. It wouldn't be long before it became financially non-viable for them to make the tires that WE (as a country) need. The result of that is production ending and us all having to try and get our brushless powered missiles round sopping wet long grass tracks on Losi / Proline tires ... now wouldn't that be "fun".

It's really the same argument as supporting the UK shops as if we don't where are we going to get spares from on a friday / saturday before a big event in a couple of years time.

Just my 2p worth.

On the GRP site there are 3 compounds for conespikes, in the UK atm we only have the 'hard' not sure whether other countries have the soft compound yet or not

Roger, having just returned to 1/10th Off-Road you have missed the disgrace that was Schumacher yellows last season. As I have stated in another thread tires would rip apart in use and come with poorly moulded spikes from new. We had batches of 4wd fronts with very thin side walls. Their quality was nothing short of shocking. Suddenly GRP appear and Schumacher decide to pull their finger out and apparently are making a new mould. If GRP had not taken a chance at making a rival tire then we may have still had the poor Schumache tires.

Having BB and schumy tires as the controls all the way through the National series is a good thing as it measns that drivers (and shops) attending only have to carry 4 types of tires (Schumy yellow / green BB green / pink) and it will cover all expected situations (option would be schumy blues I guess).

Why not just have one control tire, would make things even easier? :confused: I class the BRCA Nationals as one of the best series in the world, why not give our racers a chance to perform using the best available tires.

If, as stated in another thread Schumacher make a new tire mould, whose going to buy the old, poorly moulded tires. This WILL screw the shops over, unless Schumacher replace them.

If the GRP tires prove to be the better option then I expect to see them as controls for next year for some venues and look forward to using them

It seems that they were better than BB's in the dry for Stotfold but were still not chosen, seemingly for an unknown reason, as BB's are not the best choice in any condition.

Now we have a stiution whereby it would seem the obvious choice to allow GRP/Schumacher for a national. This would be the last national of the year so plenty of time to test the GRP's for drivers that have never used them, or they could just stick to what they know. Why not give the tires a shot and see what happens? If they were no good, at least we still have the best choice for any condition available.

If the alternative tires gave a significant advantage

Is giving the racer's a choice not an advantage? :confused:

On the other hand people have to think about BB and schumy who's tires are only really used in large quantities in the UK and specific parts of Europe ...... if these tires stopped being the control tires for these sort of events then think of the potential outcome. It wouldn't be long before it became financially non-viable for them to make the tires that WE (as a country) need. The result of that is production ending and us all having to try and get our brushless powered missiles round sopping wet long grass tracks on Losi / Proline tires ... now wouldn't that be "fun".

They would only go out of business from competition, which means there must be a superior product on the market, so no I don't think we will be left with Losi/Proline as the only option.

If we continue to not allow another company to add competition to the market by having BB/Schumacher control tires at regionals & nationals we will just return to the situation last year with very poor tires :thumbdown: I would rather embrace the new tires and give them a fair shot.

Stop flirting you guys and get a room! :thumbsup:

G

I thought it was the clubs that choose the controlled tyre for nationals ?

So why has nobody chosen GRP's ?

But i could be talking out my a**e and the control tyre is chosen by somebody other than the clubs.

Tom,

everything you say is a good point. A few years ago I would have agreed with you as I wasn't a fan of the control tire rule when it first came in to force ..... now I am a total convert, even more so after racing rallycross nationals where tires are free choice ........ a cloud comes over head and everybody is rushing to the shops for another set of boots .... sun comes out hot and the stampeed happens all over again! I set my own control tires, by special consultation of my wallet, and only ran 3 types .... on of which was a GRP which performed brilliantly in most conditions.

After being reminded what a pain it is to carry 3 haulers full of tires around "on the off chance" whilst pitting with a firend at 1/8th nats I really don't want to go there again ........ for that reason alone a control tire rule is great .... from the point of view cost it's even better.

I hear what your saying about schumy tires quality, Dom @ DC Racing and Brian Preddy have told me at length what they have seen and it does sound shocking. The customers would / will drive that change anyway by moving away from the tire to the alternative and I am sure that the BRCA guys had a word in Scumy's ear about picking up quality before it allowed them through as a control tire. It's not the sort of thing that would have escaped their attention!!
From that point I agree with you 100% ...... whilst it is still great to support "local" business if their service is rubbish then you can't justify it. Sure Schumacher realise that too and this seasons tires will be better ... hopefully.

I hear what you are saying and agree competely that control tires are the way to go, but then I'm not saying don't have a control tire, just following on from Lindsay, asking why the choice for Stotfold national was changed for the reason posted.

I'm also sure that the BRCA will have ensured the quality of the Schumacher tire will be up to scratch come the outdoor season. Did they also ask the question as to whether GRP have plans to make a wet weather tire? Most probably as the BRCA are thorough with all decisions.

However, would Schumacher have improved their tire if no competition had appeared on the market. I have my doubts. So why continue to give them a free market when we had a seemingly perfect opportunity to put them to the test against a similar tire without comprimising the tire choie for the whole national weekend?

We, the customer, could not drive Schumacher to improve their tires as no matter how poor they are they had our market cornered, that was until GRP came along, and suddenly Schumacher found it worthwhile to improve their product. I maybe wrong on this, but I thought the first rumblings I heard of poorly moulded Schumacher tires came at Oxon national in 2005, and still the new tires are not on the market. How long will we have to wait until we get to test these new tires before the first national?

Fairy snuff mate ... must of slightly misread you post ... appologies for the misunderstanding!

There has been a problem since 2005 :o I didn't realise it had been that long!

Thats how I remember it, however I could be wrong with this as I'm not 100% sure.

GRP do have a wet compound similar to Greens. It is being tested and will hopefully be available in a few weeks. It wouldn't have been picked for nationals as it wasn't available at the time which is fair enough.

Hopefully they will get a good showing at regionals this year and clubs will nominate them for next year.

Is there a rule that says you can't have 3 control tyres? sch, BB and GRP? although obviously this means possibly more combinations to be carried by drivers.

Properly moulded Schumachers aren't available as far as I am aware, but they were still picked. Whichever tire we picked we are relying on a promise from the manufacturer, why not give both a shot?

tom
just need to clarify the points i made, the tyre of choice at stotfold in the dry is the schumacher yellow and in the wet the green, racers have in the past used BB pinks and greens, both options work but the schumacher is superior, the GRP tyre was sent to a couple of racers at stotfold to try but by then the best weather had gone, in the damp and wet they were useless but in the dry they seemed to work as well as the schumacher, there was a question about wear rates but we didn't really have the weather to test fully. the problem for us was a wet tyre, realistically if it rains you can use either of the BB's or schumacher greens most racers opt for the schumacher as it works better for most, than the BB, (as an aside daniel prefers to run BB's in the wet rather than schumacher). we had only one dry choice, so simply put we could choose tyres to give a driver two dry choices and one wet, or one dry and two wet, we assumed that other clubs applying would also specify the grp, this did not happen and we were asked by the off road committee to look at the choice again, if we were convinced that the grp was the best choice then we could go with it as it is the clubs choice, we discussed the options and went with the choice you have seen, they were many factors in this decision the main deciding one was the lack of any other track specifying the grp, we did not want racers complaining that they were having to buy a tyre specifically for our track that could not be used anywhere else. lets be honest lots of racers complained about using mini pins at kidderminster and an equal amount complained about not being able to use them!.
john

John, you'll never be able to please everyone, that’s life :)

I can see the reasoning behind the decision and fully accept it. I personally would have preferred two dry choices as the race is in the middle of summer, but hey I also would prefer pins back at Kiddy :lol:

actually pins are really good at stotfold when its damp, from a shop point of view bring back pins:D,

I've got pairs of Schumacher tyres that are probably 10 years old and have one tyre with "sharp" spikes and one with "worn" or rounded tops of the spikes so i don't the moulding has always been perfect but only recently i've heard of the problem of tyres ripping apart which is definitely not good!

It's because they are trying to use less rubber, to save money! Simple as that!

I've just had this email from Schumacher regarding their new minispikes:

We are working on a new Mini spike, they will most likely be kept under the same part numbers and delivery is likely to be in 3-5 weeks.

Once we have more definite information we will publish details on our website.

It is good news that they are working on a new tire, but to me it seems as though its gonna be a close call to get them for the first National, only 6 weeks away :woot:

Is everyone gonna hope that the new tires are available on the day or just accept we will be using the old ones for yet another national?

Steve McQueen!

MiniSpikes are crap at Kiddy so thats not too much of an issue.

it does balls up people that are 'prepared' and have their stock of schumacher tires for the year though :(

I remember previous years people ragging each other for not being prepared and buying up tire (Proline) in plenty of time for the event, now its the oposite... what to do... what to do... :confused:

How many and what types of tyre would you suggest to get for a full national season Chris? 2 and 4wd:confused:
Cheers

not a clue, varies so much between drivers

OK so for someone who has never been to kiddy, what tyres are best for wet and dry conditions:confused:

Ballistic Pins :o

Last year I used ballistic pinks/greens in the wet, yellows in the dry.

I go by the following theory.

BB green - soaking wet
BB pink - wet/damp
BB green - Dry

Pink are safer, Green are sharper - the line between Green and Pink is very blurred, certain dryness' of the track will see a big spread between people on pink and people on green.

schumacher yellows give the most grip when its dry, but the car becomes crazily grippy, snatchy and random - only Darren Bloomfield can drive them.

I don't think many people get on with schumacher green in the wet/damp, I think the BB is much better there.

I know im know where near as good as chris but i found if i ran yellows instead of greens in the dry and found there was more grip the extra sidebite helped alot but not uncontrolable grip i did use worn yellows though. in the wet defently pinks and greens but dry im not to sure bring on some more testing :p

A

If your getting too much grip in the dry just cut rows, although you still get uber grip....:woot:
I have two outside, one inside on fronts and outside on rears normally in 4wd.