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LiPo Batteries / £540 for damages
thread on racechat re the BRCA F1, GT10 summer series and batteries for the series
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Its hard to say if this is true or not But it came all the way from China in a sealed container and only burst into flames at the track :o. . . . how conveiant ?
I like most people have seen loads of videos on you tube where there blown up on purpose and it takes some doing the only way they burst into flames is the GAS and it has to be punchared first you may well have seen a puffed Cell in a hard case . . . that tells you you did some thing wrong some where BUT NO the BRCA want it in a LiPo sack / bag where you cant see it puffing up. . . really stupid idea IMHO The "and had no CE marking or tractability, so the racer is now classed as the importer and found himself presented with a bill for £540 for damages to the School carpet from the insurance company...." I thought they said it caught on fire of cause it wont have an CE mark its burnt off :confused: I fly model planes like a few others. We charge at 1C and use the soft cell ones and to see planes crash from 500ft and then you go and get the bits the lipo DOES not burst into flames bent / warped may be but never on fire . . . YET So is the post Genuine . . . you tell me :eh?: |
If cells were imported from China, and there was no distributor within the U.K/E.U. then technically the person who imports the cells become the first distributor within the E.U.
The general product safety regulations covers this area of safety law, however it would seem that the the regulations covers a product that has been placed on the market within the E.U. As the cells were not placed on the market then I believe that the insurance company should not have treated the purchaser as an importer and attached liability to the purchaser. |
surley to be a distributor you must buy / import and then sell on yes. . . .
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The cynical inside me tells me that there is more going on than reported. Cells won't just 'burst into flames' on opening the packet, as the packet would of been swollen at least upon receipt.
As for the insurance, looking at a way of scape goating a payout? |
Sounds like a pile of balls to me.
If somethings on fire the last thing your gonna do is pick it up! You would end up with the skin melted off your hand possable losing all the feeling in your hand altogether! Id make a counter claim saying that the club was was negligent in not enforcing/ fully notifing the "rules". Id tell them to prove there claim in a court of law....should test the waters abit....talking of waters....does sound a little bit fishy this random exploding bit. No doubt there all made in the same factory like your m&s V's asda ready meals! |
I'm afraid this is poor example of pulling something from somewhere else, out of context, and it then getting out of hand. For the record...
It is true. The point is not that this can happen but that if you import something from someone who is not the official importer, distributor or retailer inside the EU, then you are liable. Insurance companies will take the liability to the official importers, distributors, etc. in order to pay the claim. If you bought the product outside the official importer, distributor, etc., then you are the importer, and you will be asked by the insurance company to settle the claim. It is then up to you to sue whoever you want to sue in order to get your money back. If you can afford the time and money... This is not about the quality of the product, how the accident happened, or the rights and wrongs of what the Club did or did not do. It is a piece of information about what can now happen if you import something outside an official EU distribution network. This is not a matter for debate. It will make no difference whatsoever what your opinion, or the opinion of your mate down the pub is, this is English Law. If you want to change the interpretation of the Law through a Judge's Precedent, then go right ahead. In this case, the Club claimed against the BRCA Insurance, the Insurer asked who the importer was in order to claim against them, and when it was revealed that the person had bought them from the Far East, and not an EU official importer, distributor, etc. the insurance company put the claim on the individual as the importer. Go ahead; whinge, bitch, come up with all the usual alternatives, quote anyone, but this is a fact, it is true, and it is being put out as a guide to all RC drivers of the possible risks. When you import outside the official network of a product's distributors, this is a potential risk. It is up to you whether you take that risk or not. It would have been better if the person who started this thread had spent some time researching the source, and stating exactly the context in which it was posted. I hope this makes that context clear, and that with this information you will make your own decisions about where you buy things. HTH :) |
What would happen if you bought LRP lipo's from HK? Theyre on the list and I can't see where it say they have to be bought in the UK. Would I be classed as the importer even tho LRP say I'm not?
I can see the point of safe lipos but it does seem like scare tactics. |
No offence Slowone but until you can show me which law makes me the lawful importer and person held legally responsable in a case like this then Im open minded on the subject.
Seems odd that its always Non EU lipo's that seem to explode into flames and not the more expensive and "better" EU sourced ones. Hopefully Im wrong but this smells of disinformation. |
It is not up to me to prove anything. This is a real case, and it really happened, and the person who thought they could claim through BRCA insurance is now paying the claim themselves. There will be an official write up on the BRCA site of this soon, but we were asked to help get the information out there. The point remains that it isn't the product we are talking about here, it is the status of the person deemed liable as the importer. If you want to ignore it as "disinformation" then go right ahead, no skin off my nose - you seem to know best.
Update - I did some digging. Under REACH regulations (use of chemicals) the person or legal entity doing the importing is liable for the legal ramifications - we are hardly that but it is a precedent. Under HMRC Rules, the person or entity paying for the products in another country is responsible for ensuring that the goods are legal to import, and that person or entity is responsible for paying all taxes and duties - if you buy your LRP bit from Hong Kong, you don't ask LRP to pay the taxes and duties, do you?!!. In HMRC's eyes, if you buy from outside the EU, you are the importer, and you are liable for the charges and complying with the Law on what can or cannot be imported. I can easily see that if this is how the Revenue see it, then it is how others can see it. Again, I am not as certain this is right as Liam is that it is wrong, but if you are looking for precedent... Just for clarity, I understand that the reason for the failure was not product related, it was related to the way it was packed and how it was removed from the packet. I don't know this for sure, so we will have to wait for the BRCA note to know that for sure. Again, I say, the issue being brought to our attention is not the safety of the product, it is the status of the person deemed the importer. If you buy LRP from Hong Kong, and the insurer asks LRP to pay, they will show from records that they did not supply the item through their official EU distributor network. What happens next is not covered by this example. However, since most EU distributors will not honour warranty on RC gear (KO, Sanwa, etc.) or most anything else if you buy from Hong Kong, that situation doesn't start well! I will ask the BRCA if they can clarify that situation in their note. |
Well i'm not to sure about this one. I'd have to see that letter of claim, and allegations, and a copy of the file to be able to give a correct answer.
The school insurer would contact the club/hirer in the first instance. There must be a hire agreement, and the damage will be covered by the terms of that. The circumstances of cells going up seem a little strange, brand new cells being opened up, bursting into flames? I would have to question this. Do the cells come charged? We're they in the process of being charged and has the user charged them as per the manufacturers instructions? Has the person been negligent in any way regarding the handling of the cells? If he has then that would be the cell company out of the claim anyway. Does the club operate as per the BRCA rules re charging in a lipo sack? If so was this clearly displayed? Has the club been negligent by not enforcing the charging of lipos in sacks? If someone was not using a set of BRCA legal cells the i'm pretty sure the BRCA could say to a member not our problem. There are so many questions that need to be answered before anyone could possibly come to a liability decision. |
Well mate its just my Da was a cop for 30 years and he taught me that when anyone says ..."its the law"...even cops...ask them to prove it.:)
The main point for me is that someone could have been hurt really bad...I dont care about the money..id get them to take me to court then agree to pay the amount back monthly fo "X" amount of time. Whoever is running a club, is quite likely responsable to ensure the right H&S equipment is on site because if its not them the brown stuff can really hit the fan. Checking 1st aid boxes should be a weekly job The BRCA is probably duty bound to ensure 1st aiders/equipment and fire fighting tools are available at an incident. I dont know much about this from a BRCA perspective and I hope procedures are in place from them that covers this? |
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As the claim seems to have gone through the Clubs insurance, I could assume the individual concerned, was a guest without a licence/insurance. Either way, he either has his own liability insurance or he benefits as a guest. So....... in reality, a licence holders' belief that he is insured against damage he causes through his own negligence is totally false in this case. Say I buy LiPo's and cannot remember or evidence the source (quite likely in my case), they could be third hand. Knowing insurance co standard approach (19.5 years exp in EL/PL contracts) I now know it is extremely probable that they would take the same view as above and hold me liable as there is no one else from whom to recoup their outlay. Does anyone else believe all BRCA members should be made aware of this immediately and moves should started to press for an alternative underwriter? |
Laim, see my update above - it's as close as I can get to a legal precedent to answer your question. It is a good point to substantiate what happened - in the eyes of the Revenue, you are liable for all taxes and duties, so you are the importer.
I'm with your Dad. My godfather was the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate of London, and he would say the same thing! He was also a pretty handy amateur boxer so it didn't pay to argue with my Uncle Dai! My understanding is that the person with the LiPo pack managed to short out the exposed connectors as the LiPo was being taken out of the packet, and once shorted they welded together and the LiPo went up. As the first post says, the LiPo was being rushed to an exit, but was dropped on the mat with the school logo on. The school claimed on the Club, the Club claimed on their BRCA insurance, the BRCA insurer claimed on the importer, who turned out to be... The rest of your post above doesn't quite conform to your Dad's, or my Uncle Dai's good advice does it? "Quite likely..." "should be..." "probably..." "I don't know much...". Would it be too much to ask for you to retract that post until you have some form of evidence as to what is required or at least, as in my case, some form of research that might lead us to think there was something concrete there? Just a thought... ;) |
One question - whats the BRCA rules re the use of TX lipo's?
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BRCA insurance is not about you being insulated from your negligence, it is about you be insured against accidents. This whole area is a minefield, and anyone who thinks it can be simplistically summed up like this is not living in 2011. If you have a query about BRCA insurance, and want your question answered, please e-mail [email protected] with the post above. Only Jim Spencer can answer that for you. No one else can. If you could post his response, I am sure that we'd all like to know the answer. That's all the fielding of questions I can do tonight, I'll leave you all to speculate that the world will end at midnight because someone bought a LiPo pack from the Far East!! Sleep well... ;) |
CE marking :o
Just checked all my so called BRCA approved cells 1s & 2s and I cant find any CE mark on any of them ? Smc 4900 Team Powers 6000 Ip intelect 5000 What should we be looking for . . . although one does say Made in china |
Quote...."The rest of your post above doesn't quite conform to your Dad's, or my Uncle Dai's good advice does it? "Quite likely..." "should be..." "probably..." "I don't know much..."....
Mate just didnt want to make any firm statements without having any evidence :D and dont want to use cloak and dagger wording. Peoples safety above cash for me always because £540 is pennys...people shouldnt be picking up anything thats on fire and someone trained needs to be there. PS Im not a person/legal enitity im a human being :thumbsup: |
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Perhaps this incident is so recent that no action has yet been taken - hopefully it will. Re your second paragraph - I believe you are way off there. Public Liability insurance is just that - they take your premium and in return take the financial loss from you should a fortuitous incident causing financial loss occur through your actions or inaction. The action or inaction itself is the negligence, so in a way we all pay our premium to be financially insulated from our negligence. |
Say im using Trakpower sourced from UK (which I am still), what would happen if these burst into flames considering the importer may no longer be available - closed? (have they closed as Flightpower? I don't know).
Also, say somebody buys LRP cells from UK store, but also buys additional LRP cells from far east. Can't identify which pack is which, but one goes up in flames and causes damaged... would this be importer? What if owner claimed "Oh I bought these from XYZ modelshop in UK" without mentioning the other pack he bought from far east? Im assuming nobody would question it, no way of telling. People should take note of this thread, true or not, just keep it in mind! Its good this is being shared with us. Thanks. |
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I have at the worlds in Germany and its not funnyif that cell had been in a sack the nobody would have got a face full of the noxious shite that spews forth and said racer probably wouldnt have lost.most of the gear on his pit table. No one watches their cells like a hawk when they are charging the racer in question was off truing tryes at the time (lucky for him). Lipo sacks are a MUST in my opinion. Jason |
This thread has opened up a massive can of wriggly worms re: BRCA insurance and what it does for you.
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I wasn't until I read it racechat |
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I believe to conform to the insurance, you have to ensure you follow the General Rules, this gives the maximum power source you can use. But you must use the equipment in accordance with Manufacturers instructions.
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For example, how does that work for Micros who don't use the Electric Board homologation - even soft case are legal as long as they comply with the voltage limits. |
Ive emailed the brca to ask for a copy of the policy wording because I have no idea what it covers me for!
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If there's no list (like you say for micro's) then it's not an issue. But for in this example there is. If a club allows you to use non-brca legal cells then it's at there own discresion, however depending of the policy wording it may invalidate there insurance cover. |
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There are only 2 sources of information worth reading - The Insurance Policy & The BRCA Handbook ************ Many statements in this thread are simply wrong (and I do not specifically mean the quote from Matty above) particularly if taken out of context and/or it is unclear what type of event it refers to. The 2011 Handbook says, By Jim Spencer:- 1) Race Equipment (batteries, motors etc) There is only ONE BRCA rule regarding equipment that is applicable to the insurance cover. General Rule 13, Vehicle Scope – The BRCA will not recognise a model vehicle as being suitable for radio control that is more than any of these measurements; 1 meter long, 20kg in weight or a maximum of 30cc engine capacity. That’s It. All too often I get emails / phone calls – sometimes from quite experienced people - asking (for example) “will the use of XYZ non homologated batteries invalidate the insurance”? Nope. 2) Homologation lists are for Nationals and Sanctioned Events use. A club can choose to run to them if it so wishes, but that’s up to them, but either way round they have no effect on the insurance cover what-so-ever at any level of event, including the nationals too – failing scruitineering wouldn’t invalidate your cover for example. Anybody tells you different point them at this document or ask them to check. ************ So ........ have the BRCA Officials got it wrong? Or Is the Underwriter banking on the Insured (the member) just caving in and giving up? Remember, every Insurer (Home, Motor, Commercial or whatever) can just turn round at any time and say "We're not paying" and it is up to the Insured/Customer to kick up a stink. IMHO - classing the member as also the importer means that he is being held liable as the importer, which he was, when he was, to the best of his knowledge, only acting as a BRCA Member. Therefore he should be able to invoke his BRCA Insurance to protect himself from his inadvertent negligence when unknowingly acting as an importer when importing the cells. Bit of a catch 22 or never ending circular argument. I hope the BRCA take up the case on behalf of the individual, not just to sort out the money in this case, but to establish the precedent re individually imported, or unknown sourced cells, or find a new insurer, or both. |
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when you are or are not insured I couldnt tell you. when you become a importer rather than a consumer again dont ask me. look at it this way if you buy cells for you and a friend from XYZ location and your mate pays you then how do you deny being the importer!! gets trickey. I think its fair to say that the people who look after the BRCA do so with the best interests of "US" the racers and its normally us the racers who decide all these things anyway by way of AGM/EGM, so when you say look to the BRCA to change this or change that essentially you are talking to yourself as a voting member, hows that for a kick up your own **** :lol: |
quote..."Is the Underwriter banking on the Insured (the member) just caving in and giving up?..."
Well they are there to make money not hand it out so its possable. If the person this lipo incident happened to is reading this thread then please feel free to message me if you need friendly advice |
Agreed that no speculation on here will answer this, it is the policy terms and conditions that will be applicable and is something that every club and individual* should have access to.
(*not every member of the BRCA is a racer, but they are all covered by the BRCA insurance) |
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After all the insurer will not listen to ordinary racers as we are not the ones who negotiated the terms. Is that better now that I have spelt it out for you? :p :woot: Everything you do, from being born to setting fire to a £20M sports centre, killing 200 people in the process, is relevant if it is connected in any way to the proximate cause of the incident as long as the incident occurs at an R/C event, any R/C event. And all of this, negligent action or inaction, should be within the scope of a Public Liability Policy. So, we are acting as BRCA Members when we buy cells. |
There are no posh carpets to burn if you race nitro.:thumbsup::thumbsup::p:p
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true or not now the lid is off the can the worms are out
charge in a sack , use a charger designed for lipo and be safe all that matters really neil |
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On a positive note ........
If the situation is such that the BRCA Insurance consider the individual has acted as an individual, and not as an R/C racer when buying the cells, then the individual should approach his household insurer re the Family Liabilities section of the policy and claim. Make the 2 insurers fight it out between them. Most likely outcome, they both say No, and then it ends up with http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk |
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