TLR 22 Build and Set-ups
 

Here is some build and setup info for the TLR22.

Build Tips


1. Be very careful when installing your steering servo – look out for touch conditions between the ball cup and the servo case and the servo arm and the underside of the front bulkhead. We have experienced a touch condition between the S6070 servo case and the drag link ball cup. To overcome this, I have swapped the standard ball cup for a Losi JRXS-R captured ball end (LOSA6017) but a short neck ball might also do the trick. Just look out for this during the build. Low profile servos tend to have an offset drive output - this can casue a light touch condition with the underside of the front bulkhead which can be relieved with a dremel and a small sanding drum.

2. Please note that our early set ups were developed using 6 hole pistons. The car comes with 4-hole. You will need to make a choice as to whether or not to initially drill out your pistons or experiment to make 4-holes work for you. I imagine a good initial base will be 4 hole 56 or 4 hole 55 in the front with 6 hole 55 or 4 hole 55 + 2 hole 54 (6 hole total) in the rear.

3. Its been said before but the 22 is metric – do you’ll need a 2.0mm and a 2.5mm hex wrench and 5.5mm and 7.0mm nut drivers. A couple of odd ball screws thrown in for good measure. There’s a tiny c’sk screw that holds the rear toe block in place that actually uses a 1.3mm wrench – although a 0.05 imperial wrench will fit and of course the slipper nut uses a 5.0mm driver (see below)

4. Slipper spanner – don’t forget it’s a 5mm nut wrench and chances are, you’ll not have any M2.5 nylocs as spares. So don’t lose the slipper nut. Spares are available – TLR6312 for a pack of 6

5. Front wheel lug nuts – we’ve lost a few of these in testing. They’re not nylocs and the outside front wheel can have a nasty habit of coming loose -especially on high bite surfaces. One fix is to VERY LIGHTLY drip some threadlock onto the screw threads and allow it to dry before fitting the front wheels. This helps to create a bind to slow down the coming loose process. That said, it is too easy to put too much threadlock on and you’ll end up having to bin a complete front hub assembly. Cross filing the back of the lug nut may also help it grip the surface of the wheel and stop it coming loose. Please be careful with threadlock and don’t use the red permanent stuff – I used Losi-Lok but very thinly applied. Tamiya Threadlock could also be good.

6. High Roll Centre Blocks are optional but worth the investment for UK style tracks. If you choose to invest in these, don’t forget that you’ll need the corresponding HRC anti-squat shim kit (TLR2045). This is one area where the design of the car changed during development – the US guys prefer the feel of the LRC block but when we tested, we preferred the feel of the HRC block. The LRC block got the nod ahead of the HRC block for inclusion into the kit but at least the HRC blocks became part of the options list.

7. Springs – Being honest with you, I have no idea if our prototype springs are exactly the same as the production ones. Having said that, on a rating scale (of 1 being the softest and 6 being the hardest), you’ll see from the set up sheets that we were running F4 / F5 on the front and R2 / R3 on the back. That would equate on a rising rate scale of a Green or a Blue on the Front and a Yellow or a Pink on the rear. The kit comes with Red fronts (F2 on my scale) and Yellow Rears (R2) so you may need some optional front springs at least.

8. Weight. The 22 can be built up to run at close to the legal limit at around 1500g but in all of our testing to date here in the UK, we have found that adding some weight has been beneficial to the overall consistency of the car on our high bite tracks. On a flying lap, an unweighted car can feel very fast but often, the consistency seems to suffer (or at least mine does:cry:).
During testing, we were using the RudeBits (www.rudebits.co.uk) CR2 under cell 102g weight under our saddle pack lipos - Thank you Tony. For those who don't know the part number, I'm sure Tony will be able to confirm it - along with some other very exciting ideas:woot:
TLR have produced an optional mid car brass weight kit (TLR4151 - RRP £19.95) which is to the design of the weight block that we were using during testing. This system enables 50-60g of weight to be added to the rear gearbox / shock tower area of the car which we found was very useful in all conditions. These have also been shipped with the initial batch of kits and spares and are available now through your TLR stockists.

Set Ups
I'll try to post some actual sheets soon but here is a largely generic astro starting set up. We have found that the car responds well to small changes but by and large, this standard setup is useful for starting out with. Don't forget that our testing was with different pistons but I've tried to give you a starting point for the kit pistons. If you don't fancy drilling pistons, I would recommend starting with the 4 x 54 hole pistons in the rear and possibly going down to a 25wt to begin with - but being honest, this is not something I've yet had the chance to try.

very handy info / tips to have. Thanks
Do you have any setup advice for running the 22 rear motored? I plan to be different to everybody else in the uk and try it this way round first.
Time will tell if im doing right or not

Thanks for your time,will there be any team drivers on sunday at Ardent

Some good info there Andy thanks.

Just wondering if you had any thoughts on the balance of the rotating masses in the transmission. Could we be shifting to the 3 gear transmission and using a CR2 style extra idler in an attempt to get all of the large masses rotating in the same direction, to improve the controlability of the car in the air. This will also move the motor back over the rear axle more, improving the grip in slippy/wet conditions....

TBH, we never ran the rear car very much during testing over here as we needed to concentrate more on the mid car.
However, when we did run one, we used a very similar starting set up - it felt incredibly lush to drive and was very rewarding when you hooked everything up together. I was a fraction slower with the rear car than I was with the mid but it felt rewarding to drive.
I would suggest that the 4 hole rear pistons might actually be better suited to a rear configuration when taking into account the mass of the motor helping to dampen the rear end.
I did end up using a spring rate that was slightly lighter on the front when using the rear motor car - but I have to say that my set up was far from perfect and I ended up going the wrong way during the day which ultimately didn't become apparent until later.

Definately worth a go though - there's no reason why the rear car wouldn't work and for some drivers, it will feel more natural to drive a traditional rear-motor buggy than a midcar. That said, I do believe that the nature of our track designs and surfaces lends itself to a mid configuration so even if the rear car feels nicer, the mid car will probably end up being faster.

But that's the beauty - you can run it which ever way you want.

I've not had any such thoughts Will - but clearly you have:lol:

TBH, I'm just happy to drive it as it is right now.

I'd never say never - but I don't think I'll be trying it just yet.

you say to use the HRS block,what deg would be the best to start,

Thats a tricky one.

I ran the 4 degree HRC but David and Darren ran and preferred the 4.5 deg.
Simon ran the 5 degree block and we all started with the 3.5 deg block.
Much will be determined by individual preference but I'd say either 4 or 4.5

thanks Gnarly Old Dog,will the average joe notice a difference between the high and low,

Yeah, the wait for the new kit is putting the brain into a spin :drool:
Really looking forward to getting my hands on the 22.
The RCracer mag feature has me counting the minutes till delivery :thumbsup:

I may run mine at Ardent, but not sure.
Only have the kit stuff to work with so not really a good place to run it without options to change set up dramatically.

i might be running mine in the finals:woot:

Again, tricky to quantify. In testing around Eden Park, both David and I felt the HRC blocks were advantageous and would help keep the car more consistent. Obviousy David is far from being 'average' but even I could notice it so I guess, yes - for our tracks and surfaces, the HRC blocks will prove to be faster.

That said, the difference is subtle and if you never drove both conditions, you would develop a set up that works for you and your driving style but having driven both, HRC gets the nod from me for over here at least.

Maybe a stupid question, HRC block ?

HRC = High Roll Centre

Similar effect as what we've always been doing in the past with putting washers under the old toe-blocks on the various incarnations of the XX, XX4 and XXX platforms.
We appear to like having a higher rear pin than the US guys do.

HTH

My top tip is get someone else to do the turnbuckles or your fingers will hurt :( Ive stopped at bag c for the night, and still got 2 more cars to build :thumbsup:

With the high grip astro, that surpriced me a bit, but I guess there isn't a major height difference?

just curious on the rear hub position? it looks very like the CR hub tbh

Its mentioned in set up you run 100g + in weight i notice 72g is max available will be suffiecient?

also gearing pinion?

Many thanks some cracking advice mateyand very quick so builds can now be tailored to this its very appreciated

Your not alone, I will first run mine rear motor as our club track is grass and dirt, and quite low on consistant grip,tends to lend it's self more to rear motor....cougar hated it anyway:lol: but there is a vega running there that seems ok to be fair to it, but it seems to me mid motor works best when the grip is good and consistant throughout the whole lap...astro,yuk:D

I believe the difference is about 1mm.

How it felt on the track was that the HRC car felt less likely to dump itself over on the outer wheel at high speed on the limit - the EPR raceway corner best illustrated this - with the HRC block, the car would drive into the corner and you could power through but with the LRC block, you had to be more cautious else it would dump the rear end part way through the corner when it tried to break away.
Not on every lap but enough to make you feel a little less committed as you approached it for the next lap.

I believe the LRC blocks will grip harder initially but the HRC block tends to make the car more consistent - possibly with a little less grip overall.


RDG40: As for the weight plates - I believe Rudebits do a 102g plate but Tony would need to confirm - certainly mine came from him but I don't know if he still does it or not? TBH, the great thing about all of Tony's LiPo plates is that they're easy to swap in and out so you can tailor the amount of weight you want without drastically affecting the front/rear balance. 102g might have been overkill - but the 74g would be an awesome starting point (along with TLR4151 on the gearbox)

Whilst on the subject of weight, The Rudebits sidepod weights will be awesome. Another quirk of off-road for me is that whilst the trend for narrow cars continues, sometimes just adding a bit of weight outboard can help an average Joe like me go faster due to increased consistency. These pod weights will put a similar level of weight to the lighter Rude plate further outboard which could very well suit our types of tracks and help to slow the initial reaction of the car when settling over bumps and ruts.

A higher roll center mount will make the rear end roll less, add more pressure to the wheel instead of the suspension absorbing all force. On a high grip surface that means initial response is very good, and the grip could feel better until the point where it will snap away a bit easier than a low roll center that has a bit more give, and should be smoother.

When it's only talk of 1mm, it's less than what we modded on the CR. When you wrote high and low, I was thinking something like on the XXX-S touring car, where it was 3-4mm difference between the high and low; VEEEERY noticeable that one...

Regarding that last point, I don't think the LRC will grip harder, but the rear end should feel a bit softer, and roll deeper.

But then again, you're the one who's actually tested this stuff:cry:

Hey Martin, you've got me here :woot:
I'm just trying to convey what it felt like when I was driving it - your understanding of the dynamics behind it blows me away - respect to you.

All I can say is that it was more consistent - for whatever reason - with the HRC block - but the difference wasn't massive like the XXX-S you mention - but both David and I felt the same and when we went back to the HRC block, things just felt nicer again.
May have been a variety of reasons - but the consensus for us was that consistency was improved with the HRC block.

Does the kit come with any antisquat shims? Or do you need to get the antisquat set?
And which and how many pistons are included?

As it seems Losi´s own 22 servo saver set was discontinued. Can you use any other external servo saver? Which one is good and will fit?

I take it you've been Losified :lol:

You get a full set of 4 hole pistons in the kit - 56, 55 and 54 hole and you get a full anti squat shim kit for the Low Roll Centre blocks. The spare parts are in the F-bag in the kit box I believe - although I haven't yet got that far myself:blush:

If you choose to run a HRC block, you will need a corresponding HRC squat shim kit (TLR2045)

As for servo saver, I'm sorry but I don't know what other type would fit. You might get a small kimbro under the bulkhead and you might need to trim the width of the top of the servo saver to get enough clearance with the bulkhead under lock - but this is not something we've tried (sorry)

All looks a bit tight for Kimbro type but there is always the xx4 type, ie bendy servo horn if it is too tight and you want to run something. Funnily enough just saw something on Youtube of one of the US Losi boys pulling out of a race with the 22 because the servo horn stripped...

Any recommendations on a starting point for pinion size for indoor carpet and a Novak Ballistic 6.5 motor?

I would start off with a 19/76 or 20/76 - depending on ESC settings and size of hall

If your ESC can boost timing then you might want to drop even further.

Some motors appear to like being geared higher than others but I think this also has alot to do with the ESC being used. I have no experience with the Novak equipment I'm afraid but the internal ratio of the 22 is 2.43:1 - just like the old XXX-CR - so I would gear it similarly to whatever you would normally run at to achieve the same overall ratio.

Er!-Remove the protective film from the wing before spraying-it's on the underside of the wing!!-Don't ask how I know this!!Happy building!!

Er2!!-Window masks must be right first time..If it's peeled off and re-positioned then the 1st spray coat will buckle them..Don't ask how I know this!! Carry on!!

I agree 100% with you Paul! My fingers are aching from building my wagon today... Just got the shocks to go then an electronics install :thumbsup:

i used a screw the same size as the turnbuckle and some shock oil to do the normal thread:thumbsup:iv only got3 blisters:woot:

could we have a shock filling prosses and bleeding guide,full rebound half or none.........ppwweeezzzz:thumbsup:

If you use a reamer to create a slight taper on the ball cup then it makes building the turnbuckles much easier (and less painful) but sounds like its a bit late now...

Wheels compatibility?
 

Is there any compatibility with other brands, or should i change all my AE wheels ?
Thks !

Hi Kit,the advise made it to me through Andy so not too late at all :woot:

As far as I'm aware you will need to swap over to the new TLR wheels as it is all hex drive now rather than pin.

Do Kyosho wheels fit the 22?

Losi's front wheels seem to be wide...Have you some tips to fit schum staggered on them?

I've had 3 to build, done 2 of them hands are feeling it. Going to get a little mini drill tomorrow, hopefully one the ball joints will fit into swell to screw them onto the turnbuckles :thumbsup: