more steering for 201
 

Ran my 201 for the first time today at worksop and spent all day trying to find more steering. Better drivers than me also struggled. What needs doing to get more steering? Tried lee martins euros setup but didn't help me much.

DO you have the rude bits weights? :confused:

10g on nose, 85g around servo, 60g under lipo.

Strange?

I have 20gr in the nose, 78gr under the servo and 80gr under the lipo.

The car is planted like this with very agressive steering.

What surface are you racing?

Its rubberised cork at Worksop. I had the same trouble, an initial aggressive amount of steering then nothing mid corner and corner exit - difficult to drive smoothly compared to the similarly set up B4FT i ran last year for sure :( Strangly, the high speed steering didnt seem too bad, it was the low speed turn in. As if the turning circle was twice the size it should be.

Maybe with this info someone can chip in and offer some setup tips !

:thumbsup:

Have to admit, as much as the car really suits my driving style so I am doing way better with it than my old b4, on low grip surfaces I have no steering unless I touch the brakes, and no steering on power either!

I know this is apparently backwards but when I was doing go karting I could swear we used less castor for better turn in, 201 standard is 30 isn't it? Option 25? I think the 25 will turn it in better but give even less steering on power!? :confused:

I know you guys were trying all sorts during the day, did you end up trying rear blue springs in the end?

25 deg caster will help with turn in alright.are you guys runing with the .5 deg hubs?maybe try the 0 deg ones if you are.what anti squat are you runing?try more maybe?:confused:

I tried blue rear springs but didn't really make any difference. I tried tthe alloy 3 degree block upside down for more antisquat (right?) But no better. Lowered inner front camber link but still the same.
Cheers for the loan of the springs rich

flipping the block upside down reduces the anti squat i thought?to increase it you add the spacer under the front block

A little off-topic I know but if I remember correctly, we used to run more caster on a kart in the wet as this used to give greater inside wheel lift at the rear and therefore more front end...

Lots of ways to increase steering.... lower steering knuckles, move the front arms all the way forward, no washers under front inner ball stud, outter position on the rear inner ball stud and all the way out on rear hub no washers, lengthen wheelbase, add anti-squat, raise front ride height/lower rear. Take alot of your weight out of the front. I run 21g on top of the servo and 21g on the antisquat plate and thats it. More entry steering = move top of rear shocks out, more mid-exit = move upper front shocks out, lower front oil weight slightly, raise rear oil weight slightly

I run 24mm F&R ride height religously and check it every run, eyeballing simply doesnt cut it

Lots of things to try to get the feel your after

I stand to be proven wrong here, but again I don't remember long wheelbase = more steering, but the other way round!? Eg the new shorter wrc cars are twitchy due to being shorter, cars like Renault clio's are nuts for the same reason!?

the single improvement of steering I found when looking is to remove the rear inner ballstud washer. I could not beleive the improvement, and had to put the washer back in to check if it really was that simple.

huge huge difference!

try that first, before you start putting in weights.

yes a car with a longer wheelbase is more stable, however when we change the wheelbase via hubs, its not about the wheelbase primarily, its about weight transfer. So believe it or not;

moving the rear hubs forward=more forward traction by transferring the weight more to the rear
and vice versa.

hard to understand, hard to explain, but please so try it yourself, or better still, get someone else to make the changes to your car without you knowing what they did, and try and guess which way he/she went.

now with that being said, I have found moving hubs to be a very minor tuning tool and make very little difference.

have fun, thats the main thing:thumbsup:

Hi Dave

Yes, the std castor is 30 degrees on the 201, and its 25 as std on the B4FT. When i ran my B4FT at Worksop, i changed the front blocks to 30 degree and the car felt dialed with them. I have ordered some 25 degree blocks to try but i dont think thats the main problem. I also ran AE silver springs all round on my B4. The nearest to these are the Tamiya Blue i have found out this morning. That means the Yellows i used yesterday are too soft. Less castor means more steering, yes, thats what i have read too, more castor " aids stability, and handling in bumpy sections " ( From Elvo`s guide )

I had different people telling me different things yesterday. Whilst they had good intentions, i kind of went backwards not knowing what alteration was doing what. I dont like to have to use the brakes to pivot the car at every corner, yesterday, that was the only way i could get it round the hairpins.

Rich

No worries Tim, i think we all had similar issues. Dave G was the highest placed 201 if i recall correctly and even his looked to be lacking steering compared to the other cars in his final.

Hopefully should have a reasonable setup by the end of the players meeting to help you with.

Is this when using the std ballstuds or the hard 53969 studs which are 1mm lower ?

Cheers

Yes Tony, i was running the 0.5 rear hubs and im going to try some zero degree ones at the players. Certainly wasnt lacking rear end grip, just turn in.

As for anti squat, im using both rear alloy parts, spacer under the front mount with the rear mount in the higher position ( its reversible i understand so mine is mounted with the 3.0 degrees logo upside down when viewed from the rear ). I guess that means its on medium setting ?

moving the rear hubs to the rear position will lessen the dogbone angle and free up the rear, more steering.

more bind = more traction

also something to think about, the further rear the motor is eg: larger spur, larger pinion there is more "swing weight" meaning there is more weight placed rearward of the tires, this will create a slight bit more steering and forward bite also. This can cause a push on power and over steer off power

yeah thats the medium setting maybe try it the right way up.one thing i did find outdoors on grass was that when i went to a heavier front spring (from ae silvers to blues,think i also went up 5 weight in oil) i got a shed load more steering(way to much) maybe worth a try although i dont know if it will work here.let me know if this has been any help

From Elvos guide ......

Lowering one end of the car, or putting the other end higher up, gives a little more grip at the lowest end, but try to avoid big differences in ride height between the front and the rear.

Is yours a typo or not ?

Also, people have mentioned lengthening the wheelbase to increase steering. I thought short wheelbase meant more nimble, better through tight slow turns and hairpins which is what Worksop is primarliy about and where the car is lacking grip.

Whilst im not saying im right and others are wrong i cant get my head around the logic of some of these suggestions. Im crap at setup and i appreciate the input but need accurate info.

I also cant get my head around how removing weight from over the front axle will increase the front end grip at low speed. If you exaggerate it and say put a bag of sugar over the front axle then im sure you wouldnt be lacking front end low speed steering thats all.

Instinct says short wheelbase, more weight over front axle - i thought that was the idea of the brass bulkheads from the likes of Trish. :confused:

Cheers for the reply Tony, ive made a few mods to try at the Players.

Mines a typo sorry. I meant to say to run the front end at 23mm and rear at 24mm for example. That will result in more entry steering. Not making major changes in ride height. 1mm is plenty of bias

Weight:

Think of you car running full speed down the straight and you suddenly want to turn left. Which direction is intertia carrying your car? straight forward right? so the more weight you add, the more energy is required to change the direction of that end of the car. Another example would be to add weight to the rear of the car, you gain alot of forward bite AND high speed steering because when you initiate a turn at high speed the rear of the car is going to want to continue to go straight. Understand? Also by adding weight to the front of the car you loose forward bite quickly, because you slowing/limiting weight transfer to the rear wheels, the buggy will only generate a certain amount of force in attempting to lift the front end and loose grip.

Summary:

more weight = slower weight transfer and slower handling, less weight = quicker weight transfer and will change directions quicker. You can say that adding a bag of sugar on the front bulkhead would provide more grip... but you would have zero rear grip, every setting is a balance. That car with a bag of sugar on the front would never make a turn at the end of the straight, your example should show you how the weight works. Typically adding weight will mellow the car out on high grip, sounds like your conditions are not quite high grip so myself if I were in those conditions i would remove most of the weight on the front and center first and foremost. But thats just me

Wheelbase:

True a short wheelbase (hubs forward) will turn in a tighter radius, so that is a good setting for tracks with alot of 180 deg turns. I run short wheelbase because there are 5x 180 turns and only 2x 90 turns on our current layout

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, that makes sense, i guess we misunderstood each other as its only the low speed steering where i felt that the car suffered. The high speed steering wasnt as bad as the low speed. Yes, the track had a lot of low speed, lowish grip tight turns. Anyway, got some stuff to try now so cheers for the input. :)

Hi Rich, I think the confusion comes around where it's lacking, at a minimum the corner is split into entry/mid/exit, in reality far more!! I think you mentioned at the start that what your missing isinitial turn in, to improve that the following DEFINITELY is the way to go:

1. Less Castor
2. Shorter Wheelbase

And to an extent:

3. Less weight at front (less inertia, makes it more nimble)
4. Stiffer springs (the car reacts quicker)

However:

A). Stiffer springs will give less ultimate grip, more understeer
B). Less weight at the front may also give less grip ultimately
C). With wheelbase its the how that's key! If you could cut a centimetre out of the centre of the chassis then all good, but we do it through moving front/rear axles. That's why I was hesitant to suggest shortening it by moving the front axles back, pushing more weight ahead of the front wheels isn't a good move from prior experience!


When I did 1:1 racing it was easy to tell whether the issue was initial turnin or general front grip, I'm not sure it's so easy with rc. Is it possible it has plenty of initial turn but quickly goes past the max grip at the front then creates understeer?

Sadly, what all that means is if the obvious changes don't help, you may need to actualy go to counterintuitive moves to see if they help!

Oh, forgot the most obvious, a lower front than rear will definitely give a bit more front end!

I get lost with all the camber link stuff sorry, so no idea what all that stuff does!!

Keep working the front changes before going on to the rear to take grip off!

Can't get time off for players Rich but will call in on sunday to see if your changes have worked. My rear hubs are the standard plastic versions, are these 0 degrees? What are the first changes in order of priority I should make?

cheers rich,still learning the car myself:thumbsup: with regards to weight over the front my understanding of it(i very possibly could be wrong:)) is that to much weight will deaden the front end making it unresponsive(all the weight trying to go straight while the car trying to turn,also think it stops the car rolling and creating grip)p.s could it be the front of your car is rolling too much and bottoming out on the shocks(just a thought).hope all that makes some sense confusing myself writing it.

edit dave sums it up much better above

Yes ! - thats exactly what it felt like hence my first post........

When i watched your car it looked much the same. Your thumbs just managed to live with it that bit better than mine though ;)

It was only the first outing with the car at Worksop. The 511 felt fantastic first time there. Ive never made a high B final there before with any other chassis. In fact i think i was usually around the D in 4WD whereas ive gone backwards from the B in 2WD with the B4FT to the D with the 201 :woot:

I appreciate that setup cant make up for skill with the thumbs and there are guys there with far more talent than i, it would just be nice to get it feeling similar to drive there to how my B4 did. Right now im kind of regretting selling it !

Anyway, cheers for the info guys, the fog has cleared a little though not completely.

Yes the std plastic hubs are zero degrees. The alloy zero degree hubs are soon due for release so hold out for some with the larger outer bearing if they are what you are after :)

As for changes, i`ll scan and give you my setup sheet after the Players mate not a prob.

standard ballstuds

I think it's a shame that Lee doesn't reply and give some advice as he's the N° 1 TRF driver.

We need a good base set up for grass, clay, astro and indoor track just to make the car perform and make it more appealing to potential customers. :yawn:

He got married on Saturday there's a good chance he's in some far away land on his honeymoon :thumbsup:

Didn't know that so we will give him some time to help us poor guys out :D

you can flip the casterblocks around.. it will give you way less caster than the 25´ ones.

works great on low tractions tracks if you can keep traction in the rear.

try using the outside camberlink hole on the front tower..

Setup is standard on any car... same adjustments make the same differences. So if you have time read through Elvo's site and try adjustments and pay attention to what they do. Then you dont need someone around all the time :D

Ran my car indoors today with Lee's Belgium set-up. Had brass under the lipo and under the servo along with a big lump of brass i manged to squeeze under the steering ackerman bar. I was running on carpet with Mini-pins and it was handling lovely. I had no understeer issues at all.

I ran 40wt Rear, 32.5wt Front with Red and black springs and an all up weight of 1590g. Its the first time ive driven this car and i got to say i love it. Dare i say i prefer it to my Cr2.lol

Rich... it seems i had the opposite to you!! lol!!

Nothing on the sweeper everywhere else though the car was good.

Okay i dont run a Tamiya, i run Fabs Mid RB5 MCS.

Firstly i run 30deg front kick up.. this i find suits me, gives a little less initial but more mid and exit.. 25deg gives much more initial but is not to my likeing mid exit..I also run the hubs in the middle position and about 2mm on the ackermann which smooths everythng out for me..

I tried quite a few things on the car.. went from long to short wheelbase.. the car felt more planted and seemed to change direction quicker BUT didnt cure the sweeper for me.. i messed with front links.. ended up outer tower and outer hub.. the steering seemed to react quicker but again didnt give me what i wanted on the sweeper after the intial turn in it just washed out...

For the players ive gone to a longer front link in the hope to induce more front end by rolling more.. ok i may loose a little initial but should hopefully gain mid and exit... so im inner tower and now inside hub..

I will see how this feels..im guessing it will be better, but i also think if i lift of the rear might snap away, but could well be controllable on the throttle..if so add washers under inner stud.. still not happy i will play with the rear links..

Ultimatley i like the feel of the car in long wheelbase.. i have run it everywhere in this guise out doors in all grip conditions, worksop is really the only place ive struggled.. saying that its the first time ive even run the car on this type of surface!! HOpefully i'll sort this coming weekend!:thumbsup:

Cheers

Nick

Hey Nick

Cheers for the info. Sounds like you're a lot better qualified at setting up than I am. I've made a few changes to the 201 and will be bringing Elvos guide with me this time :).

The MCS sure looks to go well when set up right :wub Craig went well with it at the Silverstone weekender too.


See you at the Players :)

hi all.

as alec said i have been very busy lately, im currently sat trackside in Thailand, testing for 8th WC.

right, things i would do to gain more steering:

-Front wing
-More weight in front
-less washers under front ballstud
-inside hole on arm
-stand shocks up on tower (more low speed turn - less high speed)
-longer front link will give you more aggresive turn, but less initial.
-cut ribs out of front wheels to make softer

Changing rear can also help steering:

-longer wheel base increases amount of pivot
-more washers under rear ball stud will loosen rear end
-standing shocks up at rear more
-smaller spur gear to move motor in.
-smaller wing will make car more reactive

have you tried all of these things??

Lee

Thanks lee, just what I needed. Will give it a try