Entry fees
 

I know I didnt attend the agm before anyone says it but I though this could be worthy of a little discussion on a public forum to gauge peoples OPINIONS

Entry fees in the WRCA seem pretty much set at £10 per class per meeting, is there a reason for it ? Just seems expensive as its the same price as a national meeting

I can answer that one, thats what got voted in at the AGM, so we are stuck with it for 12 months, and I know people don't want to hear it, but if you don't like it, turn up, propose and vote, I did state at the AGM, that if we were running national class meetings, on national class tracks, with big entries, then £10 per class (£5 for juniors) was acceptable, but personally felt a more realistic price was £6 per class. As I was the only one who thought that was a good idea, it didn't get through.

Its a fact of life at the moment that things are getting a little more expensive. When you start to factor in the cost of land and equipment to maintain a track I think its fair we charge a fair price for entry for the clubs to benefit. If these regionals carry on being treated as national events then expect to pay a national price. If you want to stay at your club week in week out fair enough, then pay your club fees and be happy. I dont know anywhere that charges less than a tenner for any event these days and the summer nitro series that most of Talywain race at is £12 a round.

On a sidenote...personally i think £10 for running a 2nd class is over the top especially as last year running a 2nd class was an additional £5
Apparantly this was voted in at the agm (which i did attend) but i cant remember it being agreed...maybe i was asleep or munching on a spam sarnie

I thought the 2nd class for £5 still applied? but then again I have no intentions of doing a second class as I cant control my 1 entry as it is :lol: so I probably fell asleep or was eating at the AGM too...

All the ME regionals i've attended this year have been £8 :thumbsup:

it was proposed by Matt and seconded by Steve Axon...

A national is £10 an entry, we are not running to national level, so why should we pay national fee's is my attitude. We need to encourage people to attend the regionals, if they perceive them as too expensive (and as far as I am concerned, for outdoors, £10 is), then there will be lots who won't attend, let alone run a second class.

Every race I attend is not to national level (apart from the truggy nationals, 2 days, £20) and in the last 2 years I can only recall 2 or 3 days where I paid less than a tenner.
Not run to national level? Could have fooled me with the top dog barking the orders of vis vests in pits and staying on the rostrum. Shall we start to do scrutineering next?

My point is the WRCA are expecting to run the events very close to national BRCA rules and the price IMO seems to be a standard wherever I race even at non regional events.
I come from a background of motorsport and trackdays and paying £100-£1000 an event wasnt unusual so for me £10 for a days racing is a bargain..

As alluded to above, as the agm wasn't well attended, those who didn't attend (me included:blush:) will struggle to get support from those who did. However, from memory I think the agm was re-arranged relatively "late in the day" which didn't help attendance.

One thing I think should be considered is the disparity between the nitro and electric track-time despite them both costing the same.

Nitros have 3 qualifiers + practice, each quali is 5 mins plus 2+ mins warm-up, then a 20 min final = grand total of at least 46 mins track time (excluding bump-ups).

Electric is only 30 mins total including practice.

SO, I propose in advance of the next agm that whatever price is settled on, electric should be 2/3 the cost of nitro per entry. Please second it someone! :thumbsup:

£10 is not a lot
it could get you 7 1/2min of dirty phone sex!!!
15 bottles of bud
3 issues of razzle
12 condons
1 large dominos pizza

But me I would rather a days racing, and flashing my ass crack at you lot!!!:thumbsup:

Right, lets get a couple of matters cleared up here....

High Vis vests... - as a nitro racer, you should have, as part of your equipement, a high vis vest, this is a must due to H&S, BRCA Insurance, and also, for the race director to determine who is who in the pit lane. Same goes for the 'no-smoking' too.

Right, difference between a 'national' run eveny, and our 'regionals', which, comared to how the bigger regions are run, is very lax. If we were to run to FULL regional rules (electric quoting now), on top of what we are doing....

Motor scrutineering
Battery scrutineering
transmitter pound
car scrutineering
track width
rostrum height (Talywain and Saundersfoot comply)
Rostrum length (Talywain and Saundersfoot comply)
Referee's

This is just off the top of my head, so when we have all this in place, at each club that holds a regional, then I will happily comply with the reasoning of the pricing @ £10, but in the meantime, the price is not justified. We are currently trying to pull people back in to attending our Regional series, but the price is off putting, as most who don't, either don't see the point in it, think it is costly etc. So by having a 'reasonable' entry fee, and clubs putting the effort in, to bring back the numbers, all you are doing is shooting yourself in the foot, short term gain, for no long term plan.

As much as I hate saying it, our region is seriously lacking in a lot of areas, some are within our control to change, and others aren't. If you were to ask me why I am on the committee, then my answer would be, to cultivate grass roots racing, to bring on more drivers who would then be willing to move up to compete at a regional level. To be able to do that, we have to have strong healthy clubs, and that gives strong healthy tracks, once those are in place, then the Regionals will be far better, as people will look forward to going, entries will increase, and racing will become more popular.

I had a feeling that it was agreed at the agm hence the specific wording of my initial post

I didnt go so who am I to moan

I just wanted a discussion and to gauge peoples OPINIONS

Dont really want anyone getting on their horse and saying you didnt go so you dont have a right to have an opinion

Hmmm Mikey, national standard regionals ? Ive only done 1 out of the 2 regionals so far and from what I have experienced and heard, national standard it is not. Dont get me wrong, I am not knocking the excellent job that everyone does, I just feel that is a ridiculous comparison to make. Especially from an electric standpoint, what 10 entries per class at GNR ? Compared to 120 in each class at a national ?

Now being the seasoned hardcore racer I am, I have raced in a lot of regions over the years and have never, ever paid the same amount to race at a regional as I have at a national anywhere else other than here. £10 isnt a huge amount of money to me, £20 for each meeting (2 classes) over 6 regionals is £120. In all honesty does not inspire me, it wont stop me

The point of me raising it as a topic for DEBATE is more of a matter of principle and to gauge how other people FEEL.

If I was bringing my child in the hobby for the 1st time, it may make me think about it having already lashed out hundereds on competitive equipment

it is a debate that needs talking about, racing costs a lot for a lot of people, especially when they have money commitments elsewhere, by having high costs, you are forcing lots to think... regional or club... and lots are plumping for club racing.

And I am not going to condem people for not attending the AGM, but I think it may be worth getting more 'pre-organised' for the next AGM, so maybe an electronic vote can also be used, will have to discuss that. The more people who actively take part in a decision, the better an understanding of that the members want.

And I am with Dave, seasoned, been there, raced most of it.

I suppose you could say a tenner isnt a lot in the grand scheme of things - you can spend more than that going to the movies these days for an hour and half of rubbish - but if the Nationals are charging that, i dont think our Regionals should be, just on principal. Our numbers are just too low.

Charging 7-8 quid per class seems nearer the mark to me. That extra 2-3 quid less looks a lot more on paper, if you see what i mean ?

I think once the next AGM is due, get it announced well before the date in every place possible. I missed last years as i didnt realy start racing again properly until this year, but i will be there if possible.

And Si G ? I'll second your suggestion of electrics being 2/3d the cost of Nitro if we are running 2/3s the track time ;) Unless of course we can run 3-leg finals like the top National Finals do for extra fun and get closer to the Nitro's run time :woot:

hi all, i know i dont have much say in this matter as i did not turn up for the AGM. but it would be nice to see the price lowered a little. 60 pound for a total of 3 hours racing toy cars seem a little extreme. ive two sons that want to race to, but had to push them into rc rock crawling, much easyier on my pocket. as i love racing i will pay the fee for myself, but thats as far as it goes while im out of work. as our children are the future for the sport i think it would not hurt if under 16s were free to help reel more people into the sport

One of the reasons I voted at the AGM to keep the cost at £10 was because last year and again this year it was the revenue from the WRCA rounds that keeps smaller clubs like GNR going.
Unfortunatly GNR / Talywain have to give up nearly Half of all entry fees to the land owners, It's just how it works.

GNR took £500 ish
Land owner £200
3 new lawnmowers £200
sand and cement for track £50
money left in club £50

But it was having that money that got us the mowers which will keep the club going another 12months

But I'm well behind Mr Dyna's Idea that juniors are free next year!!!

Ant, I got 5 kids, 3 are racing now, my youngest also wants to, and I don't begrudge paying half price for their entry, to be fair, but I have been selective as to which tracks I think they would manage.

If GNR is struggling, then it must look at it's own needs, why is it not making money/enough money, to operate on yearly basis, then fix it, the Regional should be a healthy income, not the life line of the club.

Personally, I like the idea of reducing the cost of entering a 2nd class as this would hopefully encourage people to run 2 cars.
This would both increase the number of cars running, make the championship more interesting and generate a little more income for the clubs. If you have races with just a couple of cars it doesn't make it great from a spectators point of view.

It would be interesting to find out the proportion of drivers who currently enter two classes versus how many would run 2 cars if the price was halved for the 2nd class. (Even if it would disprove my theory!)

From Caldicot's point of view, it is unlikely that we will even cover our costs, but feel it is important to hold a round for the sake of the sport in Wales.

As a track organiser I feel that if the WRCA fees are reduced then Talywain would not be inclined to hold an event.

We held 2 National events and a round of the 8-10 nitro series and the revenue earned from these events are between £800 to £1000 each event. As a round of the WRCA takes the same amount of work and preparation then why would we bother to hold an event that would bring in around £400.

I know we should be doing the regional to help the regional drivers, but so should the regional drivers help support the regional clubs.

Talywain is lucky as a club that gets to hold large events to help the finances, but there are other smaller clubs in Wales who need as much revenue from regional rounds to keep the club going.

As for dwindling numbers in the region, when was the last time we had an entry of 75 drivers like we did at Talywain for round 1, and yet i did get 1 complaint about the entry fee.

The Wrca committee and the Welsh clubs have worked hard over the past 2 years to revive the regionals, and it would be a pity to see it go down hill again over a few quid per person.

Matt, to be fair about the dwindling numbers, that's in reference to 10th electric and the heady days of a regional getting 100+ drivers just for that class. (many years ago!)

It would be interesting to see how many people would enter a 2nd class if that was at a reduced rate, thus boosting overall income for the clubs.

Alternatively at the next AGM, the rule could be amended to be a maximum of £10 leaving clubs free to charge the amount applicable to their venue?

Just a couple of thoughts to provoke discussion!

Some good points being raised here, and its nice to roughly know how much money is taken at a Welsh Regional and roughly how its spent. And although your minimum entry fee argument makes sense Matt, especially as you run a club & track, you can look at it another way. If the fees were slightly lower this should attract extra drivers. More drivers equals more entry fees ( albeit lower per head ) which should cover the less drivers/higher entry fee. If that were the case, i think most people would enjoy driving against more, varied people ?

Now im quite lucky in the fact i do have a bit of spare cash to spend on buggies, but i havent done two classes at our regionals this year for precisely that reason - i dont like the idea of paying 20 quid for two classes ! Call me tight if you want, but its the principal of the thing :lol: Im doing both at Caldicot because its my club, but i wont at the others. Lower it down a wee bit, not too much though, or offer 1/2 cost second class, and i bet you would have more people racing 2 classes....

Just my thoughts :)

As someone who races now and agian with buggys.

Last year at Swansea (wrca) I paid my lovely entry fee and well to be honest. If there was an episode of watchdog or Xray near by i would of complained.

If the wrca wants to charge national money, then start doing it like a national. Lets have some decent tracks, proper sizes and also some scruitneering.

At the moment the wrca looks a bit of a rip off, about £6-8 would be about right, saying that i only spend £4 to race touring cars at the cotswold and they're ground fees are very high. Lower the costs and get more people actually racing. Or just go for a flat fee of say £6 per class.

Maybe the WRCA should stop organising joing nitro/electric days as I can only see the electric boys moaning about 2 bloody quid...

In all the years I have done the WRCA I have always spoke about how we cant match other regions for the tracks and there professional running of the meeting

WRCA is a small fun regional championship that has tracks and drivers that range from National quality to club basher.

I would rather pay a Tenner and run in the WRCA around a flat track that was put out on bumpy ground with half cut grass with every one having a laugh than a fiver in one of the big serious clicky regions where you cant fart with out getting a stop go.

The rational behind that, was that with standalone meetings, there were not enough drivers in both disciplines to make it worth while to hold the meeting. If we can bring numbers up, then we surely can have seperate events.

Id rather pay a tenner and not race my electric on the same day as nitros....but im not Welsh...

A vis vest isnt going to save you from injury, education and common sense IS going to reduce the chance of an accident. Irresponsible marshalling should be punished just as much as bad driving. Again, I do not see vis vests in the pit lane at every event we do and it is not enforced, yet with 120 drivers in a decent well run series I have yet to see a serious accident because a pit man wasnt wearing a vis vest. I'm all for health and safety as I work in a manufacturing industry and I have certain responsibilities towards H&S myself. I repeat, a vis vest isnt going to save you if you jump out infront of a moving train...

Granted we dont do scrutineering but if the WRCA want to keep quoting BRCA rules then ignore half of them why do a half arsed job?

We keep our track at 4M width to comply with BRCA Nitro rules and only bring it down to 3M for the electric nationals.

Thats the trouble, getting something going locally for a decent day with numbers is very difficult.

A previous poster touched on the subject of track time between the 2 and you can see us nitro boys do have more time on track.

I think the biggest issue over all this is the lack of electric members at the AGM's meaning us nitro people get a bigger say on certain aspects of the WRCA summer series, so only the electrics are to blame for not getting their voices heard and expressing THIER opinion on entry fees and general ruling. So unless more people make an effort then your summer regionals are going to continue to be set by mostly nitro racers.

Fair enough point, a couple of quid to some people is nothing really - but to others it is. Especially if you are on a tight racing budget, have a couple of kids racing and/or want to run more than one class. Then it all adds up... I think the points about attracting more drivers with slightly lower costs is valid. And the point made by Si G that electrics only run on the track for maybe 2/3rds the time as Nitro's for the same cost.

All good points to discuss - isnt that what this thread was started for ?

Mikey, you are quite right about the electrics not being represented at the AGM, but I see all this debate being good as it is likely to generate a higher turnout at the next AGM.

Prior to the next AGM surely we need to have these discussions and get a better understanding of what the clubs need, what the racers want and how to make sure we still have fun playing with our TOY cars!

Mikey, it is a BRCA sanctioned event, and where we have some leeway on rules, some rules we don't, like track fencing, marshall safety etc. If you were to have an accident in the pits, i.t. a car launching off the up ramp coming in to fuel, and you didn't have your hi-vis vest on, then you won't get an insurance claim. That comes from the BRCA, not the WRCA.

If people are unhappy with the fee's, then you have to raise this point, put proposals in. We all want the same thing, the WRCA to flourish, just we all got to push in the same direction.

I think it should definately be cheaper to do a second class, that way you might get more people doing both. Also, it would be interesting to see what other regions are charging so as to stay in line with them.

other regions charge between £6-8

there you have it then. Answer solved:lol::thumbsup:

oh I just so wish it was that simple lol!!

You seem to be mis informed on the subject of insurance. Vis vests are a requirement at BRCA rallycross nationals, as we are not running nationals then its not a requirement for insurance. Not wearing one doesn't invalidate any insurance claims made and that is from the BRCA not my imagination kindly confirmed by Jim Spencer.

We are straying slightly off topic here....

Mikey, are you on the WRCA Committee?

If not, you should be..I bet they'd appreciate your help.

Mike, I would STRONGLY advise you to read and digest your section rules (8th RallyCross), section 11, para [n]

If you do not adhere to the rules laid down, in the BRCA handbook, if an incident happens, the Public Liability Insurance is null and void, as you have not conformed to the rules you have agreed to, when entering the meeting.

This is what really pisses me off, people say we are running a National quality meeting, yet people wish to pick and choose which bits of the handbook we use. I mean, I could pick apart meetings, disect them where they fail to meet the rules and regulations, but it still comes down to the fact, that if clubs just followed what is in the handbook, then that would be half the battle.

*sigh* typical "lalala i'm not listening so i'll quote the rule book..." response...

You earlier said:-

I contacted Jim Spencer... My original email is below his response.

=============================

Hi Michael

No it doesn't, the requirements at Nationals can and do vary from section to section and class to class and definatly when compared to club meetings.

Best regards

Jim

---- Michael Green <me at some email .com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
>
> Can you answer me a simple question please. In Rallycross nationals
> you are required to wear a High Vis Jacket in the pit lane and general
> track area such as marshalling. Does this mean that the insurance
> provided by the BRCA is invalid if a High Vis jacket is not used in
> the pit lane at local regional events and club days?
>
>
>
> Much appreciated
>
>
>
> Mike


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Like I said we are off the original subject now but lets not let that get in the way of a good argument....

OK, take it up with the Chairman, and the 8th PRO Rep, and come back to me with what they say, as I am darn sure they will say exactly what I have said. Or should we all run meetings in the ilk of the 810 series?