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12th newbie questions
Thinking of having a go at 12th but need to know a few things first.
What chassis should i choose that will accept a lipo and be fairly easy to setup? (never going back to nimh cells now) What range of tyres should i buy? I have a 9650 low profile servo that i assume will do the job but only have larger sized esc's. Can i buy a bodyshell to allow for the extra height or do i need to invest more money in a slimmer esc? What spares are essential to carry? Anything else a newbie usually slips up on when starting out? Any advice appreciated:thumbsup: |
What chassis should i choose that will accept a lipo and be fairly easy to setup?
Best to choose one that is popular at where you plan to race. Most of today's lipo chassis cars have basic setup that will work at most tracks but then need a little fine tuning when the grip changes/comes up. BMI Link cars, RC125R's, CRC's probably being the most popular. What range of tyres should i buy? Depends on the venue's carpet as to which ones to get. So seek advice where you intend to race. I have a 9650 low profile servo that i assume will do the job Yes or you could use the Futaba 9602, or KO 947's etc only have larger sized esc's. Can i buy a bodyshell to allow for the extra height or do i need to invest more money in a slimmer esc? Buy a closed cockpit shell as these give you more room under the shell for your electronics What spares are essential to carry? lower front wishbones, side springs, damper tube lube, shock springs Quote:
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local to me is probably chesterfield and stocksbridge. What tyres do you recommend for there? and where do you buy the kits / tyres from?
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Action Model Centre / ask for Wim Goss Microtech / keith Robertson there will be other shops out there have PM'd slowone on here and hopefully he'll reply here within a day or two |
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http://richardchang.com/hobby.php?topic=112setup |
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Ive got a Serpent s120 setup with spares for sale (well not exactly me but its a mate of mine) enough to keep you going for a season if not more, just add receiver and go!!!
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original post sorted |
Chesterfield and Stocksbridge...
You'll need pink and yellow rears, and lilac and 2x pink fronts - all Jaco. At Chesterfield you'll start on pink rears and lilac fronts, and when the grip gets to the point where the pinks start to slide, switch to yellow. At Stocksbridge you'll start on pink rears and yellow fronts, and when the grip comes up you can try a switch to 2x pink fronts. These are for a BMI or 12R5.1, YMMV. Parts - you have the list above, both good shops to deal with. Bodies, the Protoform AMR is the safest, the Parma EE1 has a bit more steering, and the Black Art Bomb'r gives the most steering. Schoolboy errors - not building the car properly! Front suspension must be free, polish kingpins and shim so the spring is not compressed (when car is off the table) but there is no free play. Rear pivots must be free with no backlash. ALWAYS start with kit settings unless you have clear evidence that isn't the place to start. NEVER change more than one setting at a time when testing, unless you know exactly what the car is going to do if you change two or more things at a time. 9650 is the best servo out there for 12th IMHO. For kit choice, go to your local clubs and see who's running what. Try to buy the same as them so you can benefit from set-up advice. If in doubt, buy an Associated 12R5.1 or BMI DB12RR second-hand. Both will go very well out of the box. HTH, please come back if you have any more questions. :) |
Thanks for the detailed replies.
Is the serpent ok to start with that steelie600 has offered? If i buy new do any of the kits include a shell? Does this class get expensive or are breakages quite rare as the chassis is protected by the shell? Is there a better site to post a wanted if i decide to buy second hand? Thanks in advance |
I only ever broke 1 tbar on my serpent its the shell that gets the abuse. Crewe can be like banger racing at times and I was going through a shell every 3 meetings. I had a few HUGE flat out crashes and My Serpent never broke. JACO dbl pinks on the front and Yellows on the back. CS High grip additive jobs a good un. OH I never ran brushless, but I was easily as quick if not quicker than the brushless AND lipo guys and i was 4 cell with a 19t stock!!!
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but if its t-bar does that mean i cant use a lipo?
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You can use LiPo with a T-bar, but it must be a saddle pack. However, no more than a handful of drivers are running that, so set-up information is hard to come by. You will be much better off using a 'link' car and the more common 3.7v LiPo 'brick', as that's what the majority of people run.
In 12th, as in life, if it's cheap then there's a reason for that! RC12R5 / 5.1 or BMI DB12RR second hand are the cars to be seen with for drivers new to the class. Those aren't usually sold cheap!! Breakages are directly related to horsepower and driving ability. If you haven't run 12th before and you go for anything more powerful than a 13.5, you will break things much more. 12th consumables are tyres and bodyshells - and the more powerful the motor the faster you use them! The better you drive, the less you break things. Again, by choosing a popular car, you will find it easy to get spares, and many people will be at the track and loan you the spare you need. 12th, with 13.5, is probably cheaper than any TC class, and equal to 2WD Off-Road. There's a free 12th Workshop and Practice Day on 22nd May organised by British Champion and all-round good egg, Nigel Hale - details here. If you are local to that, contact Nigel. Even if you haven't got a car, and would like to see what 12th is all about and have questions answered, it would be worth asking Nigel for a place. We intend to help with everything 12th - building, tuning, set-ups, driving, etc. Hope you decide to take the plunge, and that we might see you at the Workshop and Practice Day. If not, find us at the first AMC Shootout meeting at Chesterfield on the 23rd May. Your best bet is to get a car, bring it to the Workshop to be set-up and get some driving tips, and then enter the Shootout the next day to put it all into practice. :thumbsup: HTH :) |
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http://www.actionmodelcentre.co.uk/products.asp?cat=52 only one saddle pack that I know off but there are more Brick type than on AMC's site the full list for use at BRCA sanctioned events is here http://brca.org/BRCA/elecboard/news/...20v4%20pdf.pdf |
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surely that should read Pink fronts & Yellow rears |
Er... where do you buy those pink fronts??!!! :p
It should read pink rears and lilac fronts - sorry Timee. Schoolboy errors? People in glass houses... :lol: |
you should be able to purchase everything for your 12th scale needs through wim goss at AMC
sam |
Thanks for clearing things up. Going to speak to Shaun about the serpent s120 t-bar chassis that steelie has informed me about tomorrow. Anyone have any thoughts about this car i should know about?
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I've not been doing 12th for very long (only a few months) but here is my 2p worth
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although if looking for a good starter car, go for an Associated L3 or L4 as these seem to be the benchmark. You "could" go for the FTX Phantom which is basically a cheap L4 copy for about £100 as a good starter car, but i'd sooner look for a 2nd hand L4 for about the same money. but why not run cells on 12th? a lot of people still use cells & find they get better performance, Personally speaking the only advantage of a LiPo in a 12th is run times, some people who have tried LiPo tend to go back to cells because they say the car needs a bit of weight to keep it planted & less twitchy. Quote:
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you could remove the fan/heatsink from your ESC (assuming it has one) or trim the heatsink - as it's running 4-cell/1s it shouldn't pull the same sort of juice (providing the gearing is spot on) so shouldn't get as hot as if running 6 cell/2s. Some people even go as far as to remove the case from the ESC & shrinkwrap the PCB & stick it to the chassis. Quote:
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Make sure the transmitter settings & ackermann are set right, it's no point running a 100% dual rate sweep & any high steering end point adjustments because the car will turn very quickly anyway & going to high will just make the car harder to drive. Hope this helps. |
Hi mate
personally I would go for a link car because you will find that they are in some ways easter to set up. what sort of budjet do you have, the more info we get the more we can help you :) pm me anytime if you want to ask me a question. I will help you with that i can ;) Sam |
you have pm losi sam
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The only reason people say that a T bar car is easier to set up, and a car with cells is easier to drive is because that's what people have been running for years! A LiPo link car is comparatively new and not so many people at club level have much experience of them. I've been running a link car with LiPo since the start of the year and am now faster with that than I was with T bar/cells.
Anyone new to a class needs a bit of help. I suggest coming over to Chesterfield on a Saturday night and talking to a few people, it's worth far more than a few posts on a forum. Oh, and if you're going to run LiPo DEFINITELY get a link car, as mentioned above. If you get a T bar car and saddle pack LiPo you'll be almost on your own. There's lots of good advice in the posts above. Take particular notice of SlowOne and Chequered Flag Racing, some good experience there. KRob's not so bad too :D Trev |
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Thread above edited I said the wrong thing :/ Sam |
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You should be able to get a very good L4 pllus spares for a lot less than £100 :thumbsup: |
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"link" cars have been out for about 20 years now, and until they have been definitively adopted as the industry standard (and t-bar cars never stage a comeback, as surely will happen) I think it's a little early to be making definitive statements either way. ;) |
I thank everyone who as given advice to me so far, its much appreciated, and for the pm's ive received, but alot of the info im gettng seems to contradict each other with regards to what to buy as a first car and which type of chassis is easier to setup (with or without cells).
It seems the T bar vs link debate is very heated:confused: |
It isn't a heated debate. I don't know who hides behind all these handles on this forum, but some of the so-called advice isn't helpful. Like Mad Wolfie i'll tell you my background - 35 years racing RC, most of it 12th, one of the people invited to the 12th Tech-in day on 22nd May, and more experience of the latest 12th technology than most, having raced it at National level all season!
You need a link car, 1S LiPo and a 13.5 or 10.5 motor. A mini-servo (Futaba 9602 or 9650), BL speedo (of which Tekin RS is the most popular in 12th because it is the most suitable) mini receiver and booster (TQ or similar). If you want to do that cheaper, then substitute the motor for a 19T BR (of which the Corally Black stand-up is the best) and the speedo for a good BR one (of which an MRT is the best. I can also give you all my set-ups for tyres and bodies. As for the car, any of them will work. Try to get a CRC GenXL, AE RC12R5.1 or V-Dezign. None will come cheap because they are the cars to have at the moment. Trev's advice is best - get yourself up to Chesterfield and have Trev talk you through it. If I'm there, you can have a go on the sticks. HTH :) |
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By the way, my experience isn't anything like someone like SlowOne. I raced 12th scale from 1980 until 1985, then gave up until the start of 2007! I've (re) learnt a lot in a short space of time and will also be at the Ardent tech day, but mainly as a student as whatever I've learnt there's still plenty more. After all that said about link cars, if you have cells lying around there's no harm in getting a second hand T bar car to get started at club level, something like an old Associated L4 or HB 12X can be a good introduction, but if you keep racing in 12th you'll soon want to upgrade. Trev |
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However i'm sorry but i strongly disagree on one point, the best 12th set-up for any newcomer to 12th scale racing in my opinion would be to use a T-bar car, simply as they are a lot easier to drive. I was told this by people who race in the 12th nationals, the Chesterfield summer series & numerous other people that race at my local clubs who i've spoken to. I have driven a link car a couple of times & found it too "twitchy", so i have to agree with the advice i was initially given, advice which i'm now passing on myself. A person who has done 12th for years has probably learned how to overcome this "twithy" characteristic but a relative newcomer to me won't have the knowhow yet.. in time i know i'll be able to overcome it so it's a case of running before they are able to walk. a T-bar car is a lot easier to learn with & easier to drive, granted "old pro's" will not notice so much the twitcy behaviour of the car, but a newcomer can & this thread is called "12th newbie questions" so as i say i'm answering based from my newly gained experiences. Granted i know a link car is the way forward & once a driver has a link car dialed in it will be insanely quick compared to any t-bar car. Even so there is a T-bar conversion available for an R5 so it may be an idea to try at least until you get used to running 12th & have a few seasons of driving experience behind you & there must be some good reason why they have released a conversion kit to convert what is essentially a new technology car & reverse engineer it to run with the old technology. As i also said though, if going LiPo the only option is to go for a link car. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but a T-bar car has been designed & engineered to run on cells so fitting LiPo is probably going to be a bit like putting pram wheels onto a ferrari & the reason a lot of drivers are going for link cars is simply because they can run 1S LiPo's & not upset the car too much.. again not my words, simply advice i'm passing on from some of the top drivers who i've spoken to. Also saying "run 10.5 & LiPo" to a newbie is probably not the best advice. When i started out running what is a 2nd hand T-bar car, i decided i was going to go mad so decided to start by running this with a 21t brushed motor & 3300 NiMh's which i'd stripped from a couple of old 6-cell packs that had been left in a drawer & stuck with these at least until i got used to the quick handling of the car - even so i was still capable of running mid table at club meetings, i then felt i'd reached the limits of the 21t & switched to a 19t Checkpoint & 4500 cells, i wasn't lapping any quicker or finishing much higher up the table but i was crashing a lot quicker, i've now switched to Brushless (still on 4500 cells) & to be honest it's quite frightening, i think if i'd stuck a brushless & the 4500's into the car on Day one, on Day 2 the car would of probably been on eBay & i would washed my hands with 12th & stuck to racing tourers which kind of defeated the reason why i wanted to go 12th which was to try to improve my touring car driving skills & to be able to do some race series over the winter. |
Guys, he wanted advice, not a debate!! An AE RC12R5.1, built as kit, is a link car that is easy to drive. The T-bar car isn't good advice any longer, as you can't buy BRCA-legal cells easily, and after this summer, probably not at all.
I appreciate everyone is trying to help, so a trip to Chesterfield to see it all in the flesh is still your best plan. |
YOU DONT NEED BRCA LEGAL CELLS FOR CLUB RACING!!! that is bollocks!! its down to the clubs discretion.
Wolfie knows me, he knows my main class is nitro off road of which im pretty good, and he knows my 12th scale. Basically I bought a second hand S120 full setup for a steal. rebuilt it to kit standard setup, put some new tyres on it and drove it. The kit setup was very easy to drive, the brushed motor complimented the chassis very well wasnt too powerful but was as fast as the brushless on the straights, maybe it lacked a little out of the corners but top end it was fine. Now I dont want to blow my own trumpet but at my first ever 12th meeting i was 2nd overall with a second hand t-bar car!!! the only person I couldnt beat was Jim Spencer! Now I know this isnt a debate but yet again a noob asking for advise is getting told to buy the latest and greatest and I heartily disagree. YOU DONT NEED the latest kit to be competitive, what ever happened to racing for fun??? You dont need to be challenging for the win to enjoy yourself, but if your car is hard to drive and you wont enjoy yourself, but if your car works well and YOU drive crap ill guarantee youll enjoy it!!! To the OP if you want and we can arrange a date that doesnt clash with my nitro racing ill meet you at chesterfield and you can drive my 12th for the meeting and Ill spanner for you. Cos even with all the advice on here, you may not even like 12th scales and therefore you could be wasting a lot of money. Try before you buy if you will |
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Also as for cells, Kev is right, any cells will be OK for club racing, plus i do believe ANY unlisted cell (provided it is pre-stamped or labeled by a manufactuer) & under 3800mah IS classed as BRCA legal - i asked the aforementioned Jim Spencer about this & he confirmed this was the case & companies such as Vapex still sell/make them, so all this talk about Sub C cells being discontinued is utter rot.. Sub C cells are still being manufactured & are widely used in most of the battery operated power tools & the like. Plus companies like Ansmann, Intellect, GP, Orion, SMC etc are still knocking out 6 cell stick packs which can be easily split to make saddle packs & some are made up of cells still on the BRCA cell list & dare i say it it may be cheaper to buy stick packs & split them rather than buy the cells individually. Granted buying individual cells from the BRCA cell list are getting harder to find, but they are still out there. 2 stick packs will make up 3x 4 cell packs to run in a 12th. |
You would be saving your time just buying lipo. Nihms are alot of effort To maintain. Where as lipos you just charge them once you've finished using them. Then store
them. Sam |
One thing i think i must point out though regarding cells, remember some clubs opt to run 8 minute heats for 12th the same as they use for tournaments & nationals, while other clubs may stick with the standard 5 minute heat system, so remember to get cells/LiPo's that can last the 8 minute distance
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well said :thumbsup: As I also suggested earlier, if link cars were "IT" and there was no argument then the industry would have made the change over enmass 20 years ago when the first link car hit the market... ;) (maybe the earlier poster with 35 years of experience was asleep back then, I dunno) |
Ok guys. I definately want to run lipo so i know now that i need a link car. I am going to get to chesterfield soon hopefully and have a look round and chat with people. Ive been offered a bmi 12rr setup as swaps for my 4wd buggy i have for sale, hopefully sort out the deal this weekend. Ive bought some wheels off ebay to get me started so with luck will be at a meeting fairly soon. I realise theres alot still to learn
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Same here, very satisfying when youve been slinging the car round the track watching it buck and weave cos your pushing like mad and then you take a win!!!
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Originally Posted by Mad-Wolfie http://www.oople.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif but i must say it is the most enjoyable class to race in once you start getting things dialed in & have taken a few heat wins.. so enjoy it :D. +1 i went from 8th to 12th not the easyist move over, but i must say how much more i enjoy 12th. with the setting up and everything im still getting there ! but im sure that everyone will agree when i say that there is always more to learn. brilliant scale. sam |
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