Jon Seals Modded Chassis
 

Ok, following on from my thread about my Phat Bodies Bodyshell, people have requested that I show details of my modified X6 chassis.

So here goes.

I wanted to run saddle lipos, and not stick lipo from left to right - so I started by dremmelling out some of the interior webbing:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009106.jpg

Its actually the webbing that remains that acts as the battery tray and as you can see from the next pic it gave great space for lead plate to be installed as weight - but I could actually put it wherever I wanted, I am still currently playing around with weight distribution at the moment:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009108.jpg

I then needed to make a battery strap to hold the new batteries down. I had a sheet of fibreglass so i have used this for now but am in the process of getting a better carbon fibre brace made, which will actually have 4 posts and 4 thumbscrews at each corner of the cells:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009109.jpg

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009110.jpg

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009111.jpg

However, as you can now see I have very little room for the radio gear (speedo and receiver) so rather than taking out more of the interior webbing, I made a plate to sit just above the webbing and behind the servo. I know this will raise the weight of the electrics up higher, but not a massive problem as they dont weigh very much. Luckily I found some posts (I think from an old 1/12th i used to have) that were the exact height of the webbing, and were threaded at each end. These were screwed into the existing holes in the X6 squared chassis for the back servo mounting:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009112.jpg

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009115.jpg

Bolt the plate on:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009116.jpg

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009117.jpg

... and I now have space for the radio gear. All nice and neat - I know you cant see as the radio gear is not installed (had to take it out to race my 1/12th at the weekend) but the motor wires run along the left hand side of the chassis next to the side of the lipos, meaning I have no wires going over the batteries and getting in the way. I will also be redesigning the radio gear plate in carbon fibre.

What do you think???

Thanks for looking, Jon

you can't polish a terd:thumbdown:

you should of bought a master smacker from eric:thumbsup:

As much as i realise the modding youve done is excellent job. But wouldnt it be easier to sell your saddles and buy a stick type like i did. You would also be left with a lot more room for radio to sit. Just seems a lot of wasted space down the sides.

I actually managed to fit my saddles in by just cutting the clear shrink off.

Jamie......

I believe the new 09 TP saddles actually fit straight in the X6 and X6^2 chassis end to end

More central weight can only be a good thing, I like this. Try and get some photos of the electronics installed

I actually disagree GD, spreading the weight a little wider increases the weight transfer which is what gives the X-6 that lovely planted easy to drive fealing

I'm with BP on this.

Did you get my email BP? :confused:

G

:confused: Does this make slim cars not soo cool BP? (weight dead centre)

Havin all the weight in the middle, wouold this make the car very nimble?

Plus not soo smooth left / right body roll? ...

GN- not back to work till thursday, so if you sent it to my work email i'll get it then.

GD- yes, IMHO you are correct. That is not to say that slim cars are no good, just that they will inherently have less grip due to less weight being moved to the outside wheel.

Ok thanks for your comments -

I've done this as I dont want to run a Lipo from left to right as I wanted the weight as much down the centre as possible. I've gotta be honest the majority of all the Atomic Carbon S2's I've seen handle sooooo much better than the X6's I've seen and so I was basing my weight distribution on that. Although saying that you CAN still move the weight all over the chassis as far out wide as you like to get the perfect weight positioning and so this would not have a disadvantage to the left to right lipo. One thing I'm confused about... If the car goes better having more weight towards the outsides of the car, then why when originally designing the chassis did X Factory provide a NIMH battery configeration of 4-2, rather than 1 set of 6 from left to right??? they must have done this for a reason else they would not have designed the chassis like this! When I ran NIMH last year I made sure I had the 4-2 configeration and mine changed direction so much better than others that were running a 6 pack from left to right. Also, having a saddle pack lipo configeration means that I can easily have thumb screws on all 4 corners of my batteries without ever having clearance problems with the bodyshell - many threads on here following release of the X6 squared are around the problems that people are having with bodyshell clearance: cutting slots in battery straps, using screws and thumb screws etc etc. Also I am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to neat wiring and so having extra room down the sides allows the motor wires to run next to the batteries and not over them... this means that all looks neater, doesnt get in the way when changing batteries and also eliminates any possibillity of electrical technical faults caused by battery wires crossing motor wires etc.

It didn't take 5 mins to do with the correct tools, and it hasn't taken any of the rigidity out of the chassis.

Just to confirm, this was just a test exercise to see if it was all ok... a prototype if you like, as I did not like the original configeration of the car.

Thanks for all your comments tho, keep em coming.

I'll get a picture up on here once I've got the radio gear back in.

Cheers again, Jon!

Master Smacker???

A Master Smacker is the Business!:blush:

Eric will be able to sort you out:thumbsup:

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...terSmacker.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...erSmacker2.jpg

Sorry, a bit off-topic, but I'm confused by the mention of the following weight transfer theory - "just that they will inherently have less grip due to less weight being moved to the outside wheel."

Unless I've completely forgotton all I ever learned about physics and vehicle dynamincs, the above statement seems a bit backwards to me :confused:

We all know that lateral grip increases with more vertical tyre load, but this doesn't occur in a linear fashion, but rather along a non-linear curve.

So, in reality, as body-roll occurs, the rate of increase of vertical load of the outside tyre is less than the rate of decrease of vertical load of the inside tyre, therefore resulting in a net loss of grip.

back to the master smacker subject ive been running one there really balanced. ive been putting extra weight in mine im using an extra 2kg at the front which consists of an old money tin i found full of broken master smacker wishbones and schumacer dogbones . and at the rear ive put in 3kg which consists of an old toaster and kettle :thumbsup:.


team smacker rules

Loving the contrast in technicality in the last two posts :lol:

does the kettle and toaster plug into the battery for tea and toaster at racing ?

I think the feel of increased grip from a wider car comes from the lower polar yaw inertia. not from weight transfer to the outside wheel(s)

with the long narrow cars, the weight distribution is much longer in the car, once it starts to slide, it keeps sliding.

with the cars that have a wider and therefore short length of weight in the car, it is easier for the tires to slow its yaw down and get the tires back inside their traction limit and this makes it feel like it 'snaps' back into grip again.

Not to be funny, but can we keep this on topic as I am really keen to hear what people think about what I've done - and not about money tins and kettles!!!

Besides team smacker... Team Wacaday Racing (TWR) will stomp all over your wacker smacker!!! :p

I say keep working on it, it may not be any better, but for you driving something that you put a lot of effort into, it will definately be better!

driving a car that you have done more than just screw together makes you drive it with much more care and respect and you will end up finding that you are quicker with it.

same thing applies if your car looks like a shed (paintwork, stickers, wheel colour :p ) then it will drive like a shed.

your looks cool from what I have seen, good luck racing it! :thumbsup:

Thanks to DoughtyUK and Bender for ther technical knowledge... both your posts would suggest that my layout will have handling benefits.

Thanks again, Jon!

Thanks very much!

Jon

It will have benefits, it will also have negatives.

a 'perfect' car depends on who is driving it and what they want it to do.

car design is about compromises, figure out the things that are important to you and make the compromises on the bits that you don't really care about

When i made my mid motor B4... I ran a similar battery lay out, It, IMO, handled really well!

Modification is the future! I like it alot :thumbsup:

At Chris Doughty... What do you think a slimb4 would be like with a carbon fibre tub chassis?? (sorry for highjacking the thread!)

White wheels are worth at leats a second a lap :lol::lol::lol:

lol :thumbsup:

We encourage the Family to experiment with our cars. In fact, we are flattered when anyone chooses an X Car to modify or make new parts for.

The X - 5 actually has a small handling advantage over the xx-4 (and, of course a big handling advantage over the xxx-4) because the X - 5's weight is concentrated longitudinally, which means, as Chris has said, the weight must spread out laterally. We liked the X - 5 so well that we followed that concept with the X - 6.

The balance of the original X - 6 with 4+2 cells is just about perfect, and we have done a lot of work with weight and set-up to get the Squared to that place again.

Any car now on the market simply must work with stick LiPo. With a mid-motor (The only thing that makes sense.) the stick can not run longitudinally. Because LiPo is so light, with a lateral stick there is very little weight at the two extreme ends. When we put the ballast necessary to bring the car back up to minimum weight low and in the center of the car, making sure to replace weight in the 2-cell slots, it works out very well. Yes, the set-ups had to change some, but we've got the handling of the Squared now to where for some drivers it may be the slightest bit faster.

The Boyz struggled a bit at first but set right to work and had a ton of fun figuring it out. It's quite satisfying having a challenge set in front of you, rising to it, and coming out on top. As usual, we've got lots of set-up info available and you always get all the latest poop. No secrets at X Factory.

At some other comapnies the race team runs cars that are nothing like what you buy, with all sorts of trick parts that you will never see. Not here. Yes, the X Team does test things -- you don't want us selling you the failures -- but everything that works, as quickly as possible, is either sold as a part or included in the Kits. When you buy X Factory, you get the very latest stuph as raced by the Team.

Our primary goal continues to be making cars that are easy and fun to drive fast for the average racer. Ellis can win with a brick, but I cannot. I've got to have a car that I can drive, and even then it's a comedy. But if your car has a big design advantage, you will do well in your race. So at X Factory we give you the design advantage so you, the average racer, can go out there and win. Beer tastes so much better when the big trophy is sitting there next to you.

I'm no motorsport engineer, I am merely passing on my knowledge of what I have tried and tested with my own X-6. If these conclusions do not agree with your text book then personally I'm not all that bothered, I often find that what 'should' work doesn't always, so I prefer to test things out in the real world, it's far more fun that way :thumbsup:

I really appreciate that you come on here and talk to people like that and explain in detail what you do and why you do it!

Honesty is key afterall :thumbsup:

I wasn't trying to say you were wrong, I was just puzzled by the fact that your findings were seemingly against common theory on the subject.

I have never driven an X6 so I don't know what suspension changes yield what results on the car, but my own experiences with other cars has been more in line with the "text book" to quote you.

However, I have noticed that many rc racers subscribe to the theory of more body-roll = more grip, so you are probably in the majority with that thinking ;)

Is body roll cause or effect of "more grip"...... :drool:

very good point Mr.D, good analysis;) move to the top of the class and have a gold star:lol:

I do like threads like this :thumbsup:

G (sad-o)

More roll will often give you more grip.

But only in a sideways direction. - I.e it stops the car spinning out but loses you forward drive.

Look up traction circle theory.

With a diff as soon as you get enough weight transfer that the inside wheel starts spinning then the outer wheel is transmitting almost no torque so can produce a lot more sidebite. -

(It doesn't matter that the inner wheel generates no side bite as most of the weight is on the other wheel.)


If you don't get weight transfer then both wheels are equally loaded so you have maximum possible traction in a forward direction. - But because the tyre is generating forward traction you are losing side bite.




Obviously this is an over simplification and there are other factors such as wheel angle etc.

Gotta admit I am a bit of simple-ton when it comes to technical mumbo jumbo which is why I'm over the moon my thread has turned out as it has because it gives me alot of knowledge that I didn't have before.

So my question is this:

I have always been on the impression that longer camber links provide more body role - and as far as I can tell most people are suggesting that more body role gives you more side grip. If that is the case then why do almost all X6 drivers run the e-speed rear hangers to shorten the rear camber links???

I have the e-speed hangers on at the moment, and have had them on since I got the car, but if I took them off and went back to standard long camber link how different would the car handle???

thanks for your response in advance!

Jon

Not an x6 driver, but, if you move the motor inboard you generate less sideways load on the rear tyres than with an outboard motor.

You therefore need to lose side bite or the car will understeer.

Shorter top links give a higher roll centre and lose rear end grip so the car will rotate better.

In general a shorter link also makes the cars less "square" to drive as there is more camber change. A long camber link can make a car a bit snatchy to drive, especially on flat profile tyres.

I'm liking this aswell, I know kind of understand why the espeed hangers work how they do.

They give the rear end more bite on turn in, making the car feel locked in when you chuck the car at a corner. In an off power tight corner they allow the car to rotate the more you slow down and then when you get back on the gas the traction is much improved.

What warped has just said seems to sound just like what 'actually happens'

ah, I get it now... thanks

Jon

chassis mod
 

Hi mate,
Your chassis mod looks great but befor i consider doing anything like that, whats the chance of the rear end stepping out now that the weight has been move forward? i'm a newby to the x-6 and i am guessing it handles very diffrent to a losi xxxcr. if you could let me know, it would be most appreciated.

cheers. :thumbsup:

It certinaly will handle far different to a XXX-cr... To be honest I used to own a XXX-cr and found that a standard B4 handled and performed far better... the mid motor conversions from X factory and Atomic Carbon are a futher improvement on that.

Having the saddle pack lipo's rather than the stick lipo doesn't have a massive impact on the weight being further forward as the weight will only be fractionnally further forward... the benefit I saw was having more weight central. As Lipos (or at least the Trak Power ones I have) are lot lighter than the old NIMH cells you'll find that you have to put alot of weight back into the car using stick on weights or more commonly lead plate - and alot of people tend to be putting weight upfront anyway to improve front end grip.

I'm currently running 10g right at the front ontop of the front bulk head, and with lead plate have 35g in each of the 2 central holes of the 4 battery slots, and 138g under the front of the saddle lipos and under the electrics tray:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/t...1032009108.jpg

I may need to add alittle more weight as people are finding that 1740g is the ideal total weight but mine is alittle under that - saying that I ran the car properly for the first time with the Phat Bodies bodyshell at Ledbury last Sunday and got a good result: I ended up finishing 5th in the first round but would have got either 1st or 2nd if my Lipo cut off on the speedo hadn't cut in on the final corner before the loop at the end of the race (had it geared all wrong), and in the 2nd round finished 1st very comfortably!

All is working well but testing is definately on ongoing thing.

Thanks, Jon