Vader says 'Yes' to LIPO
 

LIPO's are the future.

So, why do so many say 'No'

Vader

Because there is such a randmomness on build quality, safety and useability of the cells. Until a construction rule in place, they can be as safe as NiMH or as dangerous as an old live WWII bomb.

Surely companies such as Team Orion, FlightPower and now LRP have 'safety tested' their products before they sell them to Jo public?

Has anyone ever experienced any problems with any of the following products:-

1. FlightPower Trakpower 4900mAh
2. Team Orion Platinuim 4800mAh
3. Team Orion Carbon 3200mAh

I'm sure as with everything, if the batteries are correctly used there shouldn't be a problem. Same for Nitro fuel etc...

Vade

But the problem with LiPo is, that with every new generation of Sub-C cell, you could still get away with your last charger, with LiPo, MOST won't be able to, simple as, and to try to do is just a disaster.

Also, just do a search for LiPo on eBay, and the amount of uncased gel packs you can buy, this is where safety and construction regulations laid down by the governing bodies will need to come in play. As the current situation stands, if a club or championship series allows LiPo cells, you could easily turn up with a seriously sub standard cell.

Also, the cells are all rated at different discharge rates to. So until there is a specific construction regs, it is open to some serious H+S issue's. I can also see that the BRCA might recomend a charging pound, so if there was an issue, chances are, most are out of the way.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against them, and will make a fundamental change in the way we race elecrtic, but I don't think for the slightest, that companies will start to find ways of 'matching' cell performance.

they are not understaood

i have 4 trakpower, and loan em out at the sheffield biws, i run one pack myself, and have had no problem. i took a front corner completly off my xray while flat out on the straight, lipo was fine

chargers can be had for £30 ish

clubs are covered by the brca to use em (insurance)
the best way is to only allow packs in manufactures casing

some of us (trakpower drivers) were asked to abuse our lipos while testing

this ranged from charging at 10 amp (lipo only charger) and hard hits/jumps.
no problems at all

three main rules with lipo
only use lipo charger
dont discharge below 6 volt, some speedo's have this feature, device can be bought from novak/trakpower
let em cool if warm before charging

DCM i would hardly class nimh as safe! a young lady on rcracechat has poss lost one eye and had reduced vision in the other, from nimh exploding.
the current 4200 are poping like WWII bombs!

i heard it was a lipo at ameeting today please confirm this as you probably have the most valid argument for legalising lipos then also dont u think there is an econaomic factor in not making these things legal for use ie u dont need five packs of batteries to race just top up the lipo and mr modelshop if there are any left sells u these products

not sure i understand your post, but, no it was not a lipo, was defo nimh

you you only need one lipo pack for a day

you could say same about brushless, no com lathe, no springs, no brushes, no dynos, no coolers...............

http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27232

Luckily he was in a different room when there was a very loud bang. He went to have a look and found the pack split into many pieces and black dust everywhere. Some cells looked normal, some had puffed out and leaked goo, one (in the centre of the pic) has opened put with no sign of the contents, and one is MIA!
It smashed a battery box 30cm away, damaged a microwave on the other side of the room, 1 cell burnt through the floor, 1 positive button burnt through a cloth on the other side of the room, there are lots of mesh like bits stuck in the ceiling as seen in the 2nd pic, and black stuff everywhere.
They were charged as normal, 6amps 15mv for the pack, there were on from equalised for about 30 mins.
I have heard far to many things about exploding 42's :eek:
http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1327-2/Cells.jpg
http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1326-2/Cells1.jpg



http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showpos...6&postcount=36

Thankyou Neil for those kind words mate i have asked my mom to do a statement for me and to post it on here so if any mistakes PLEASE DO NOT SHOUT AT MY MOM as she does not use pc;s;


this is savagemachine mom replied on behalf of her

thanks to all of you for your concern and nice words it is really appreciated i was released from gloucester hospital late tuesday evening and now back home my eyesight in the right eye is back to 90% unfortunally the sight in the left is none at all as the damage to the left eye is more than the right my face has few burns on it but will heal overtime i have to go back to gloucester hospital next tuesday so hopefully will have more informatoin then once again many thanks and hopefully will be back out on the track again

Savagemachine


I will keep you all updated on how my progress goes;

This is what can happen when leaning over a buggy when a hump pack explodes OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

omfg :(

I have heard many stories of this, and most often, the cell has already vented and people come and look or leave them on charge, and so often, people also leave batteries on charge and leave them completely unatended. Now, not trying to tar all with the same brush, but often, a lack of common sense and people curiosity cause the damage, when a shell should of been left well alone.

If these incidents continue to happen, then the same would have to happen with NiMH's. Saying that, in the 18 years of racing, I have not had one cell explode on me, had plenty vent, but then they have been disposed of.

Mark, regards BRCA and insurance, you couldn't be further from the truth. BRCA insurance only covers you from damage within the confines of the track, any incidents, outside of the courdoned area of the track is not covered, as hard as this is to accept, that is how it is.

odd as your not covered for marshalling either. and actually you have third party laibility up to £100000 in a car park, thats the cover i mean

read all thread, he tell you how it was charged

You are covered whilst marshalling, as that is in the confines of the race circuit, pit area, you are not. I don't think it is a 'Public Liability' policy, more specific to the track.

I'm not against them as such, I do have a problem that they are 7.4V I believe, so it's just not comparrable to the class rules we run to.

Looks like the same old thread repeated again.

This is my opinion, and as such I hope you will all respect my views.

Lipo is an illegal battery source for our cars, if we want to race competition, I agree with this as a policy, as there are too many different styles and models of battery out there at the moment. There are no definitive standards for the cells and as such there are far too many variations on a form, until this is resolved and we have a standard we should all stop medeling, this is a governing body issue, and the lead here should be taken at a world wide level with consultations to the different regional governing bodies.

I have seen at first hand both types of battery explode a Nimh at a track and a laptop battery at an airport and I can tell you that the more dangerous one was the laptop battery by far, both were tried and tested constructions, both failed so where do we go. We can only make things so safe, there will be a talented idiot out there who will cause an acident we cant stop him all we can do is try and make it as safe as possible, this is where regulatory standards will come in.

Mark in reply and by no means take this as a slight, I think that you will find that trakpower are neglegent in what they are asking you to do, what if you are injured whilst testing there cells? Are you insured or are you going to file a lawsuit against them? for loss of earnings injury etc etc... It is the companys responsibilty to test these things to ensure that they are safe, not you.

Lipo is not a crusade, it will happen, but only at the right pace, I for one will not support a change until there is proper regulatory standards in place for the cells as there are with sub C. At this point I will welcome change and look forward to the day when I dont have to spend out on new cells every 12 months.

What a great, well reasoned post!

Couldn't of said it better!!!

LiPo will only happen if people want it - thats how it works, (medelling?). There were people MORE than happy to ban brushless would you beleive - the reasons they are now allowed most places is NOTHING to do with the brca, its because people wanted to run them and the BRCA listened and applied their sense. I agree there need to be rules, not to protect us from the GOOD, but to protect us from the BAD - but lets not tar all products with one brush.

Jimmy I agree, however brushless is no where near the same potential danger zone that batteries lie in. But Brushless has only taken off as and when the systems became a more viable alternative to brushed. I still think that we are several evolutions away from what will be considered the norm by all and sundry.

As with anything there does seem to be people running around with what I can only describe as questionable motives, hence the medelling comment and these people pop up time and time again when this topic is raised.

I personaly dont think that Lipo is the future however Nimh isnt either, I think that there will be better alternative technologys that will serve our needs much better, I just dont know when and I dont know what.

"The ultimate miracle battery is nowhere in sight and the battery remains the 'weak link' for the foreseeable future. As long as the battery is based on an electro-chemical process, limitations of power density and short life expectancy must be taken into account. We must adapt to this constraint and design the equipment around it." Exert taken from "Batteries in a portable world" I think that this sums up this debate nicely.

Thats it, it is far easier and cheaper to buy bad LiPo (for racing) than it is to buy a good one for racing, hence the need for rules and regs, once thay are in, great. Also, until there has been enough of an overlap, built in voltage cut-outs, so stop people running them low.

I thought you were talking about things from a racing, cost, fairness pov.. which is fair enough... Thats where the brushless / lipo comparison laid.

I think the safety argument is over blown personally. Everyone is entitled to their opinions - racing isn't an entirely "safe" thing, there are many ways to injure yourself, we do our best to avoid them and use caution and common sense.

I think most of us are alredy LiPo users, and regularly stick them next to our ears - so lets not be too hasty in condemning a technology. Bur regardless of what any of us think, things will move on, lipo will grow until the next big thing comes along - there is simply nothing anyone can do or say to stop that. The BRCA won't stop it, thats for sure.

Totally agree with you DCM. Pepople need to use this technology for those improvements to come about. The BRCA won't make rules on something no one uses.

So, after reading all the threads on this site and other sites, and reading the BRCA web site. I can draw some conclusions...


1. Many people and very happy about the level of performance of Trakpower LiPo batteries give.
2. These batteries are not going to be made legal for BRCA sanctioned events.
3. These batteries are used wide spread at club level, and at the BIWS at Don Valley Stadium
4. Common sense states that if you buy a cheap product from ebay then it’s build quality is not as good as a Trakpower/Orion battery. So don’t.
5. No one has ever experienced any problems with Trakpower batteries. There have been problems with LiPo batteries in Laptops & Helicopters but there is evidence that NiMh has issues too.
6. Obviously, you need to use a LiPo charger to charge these batteries. Don’t use a NiCad/NiMh only charger.
7. To be truly safe, allow the battery to cool to room temperature before charging it again. However, no problems have yet to be experienced.

From this list I would say that at club level Trakpower & Orion LiPo are just as safe as NiMh. By all means reply with evidence to contradict.

I look forward to reading Jimmy’s review of his Trakpower Lipo.

most up to date speedo's now have this feature, inc the new tekin, which advetizes the fact its lipo compatable!!

agree with em all,
if jimmy pm's me or sees me at york regional ill lend him some new track power bits i have one just waiting on the other

Vader,

In my opinion you should also conclude they are the 'wrong' voltage, so in certain classes that extra 0.2V will make a whole world of difference!

Dan

at Club level Dan!!!????

Are NiMh wrong voltage also though dan ? Certainly, I am sure your cells have more volts than mine.. Which already makes a massive difference, like you say, to controlled classes

I have no idea on this, but I do read various websites claiming their cells are 1.2v+ - meaning OVER 1.2v and by your own words, illegal. :eh?:



I can't go racing a 19turn touring car and be competitive with my old cells - but I can go and be competitive with one single lipo! :)

well said that man very true

heh heh! my IB4200 worlds edition cells, say 1.2v on the heatshink, but are rated at over 1.3v each on the 'top trumps' stickers. Just don't tell anyone!!

Sub C cells, at a rest, will read 1.2v per cell, if charged normaly. Byt eh way we charge them, it increases the voltage threshold on charge, but that soon drops after charge. LiPo are rated at 7.4V nominal and generaly hold a higher average voltage over NiMH cells, they do give an advantage, as slim as it may be.

Jim, I can be competitive with 3700 cells in 19t, you just got to have the right motor, the voltage helps, but then you are fighting heat build up.

oh! I give up......

you got to come to the conclusion, as it stands, Sub-C and LiPo are incompatible under the same race conditions, as one gives far greater bennefit over the other. It isn't like Modified and Brushless, where they are both as fast as each other, and both have drawbacks, but capable of running together, the battery situation isn't the same, no matter how hard you try to bash them into the same hole.

If the BRCA go LiPo, then I would like to see extended finals, to make use of the cell properly, not 5 mins.

I don't think, anybody on here is 'fundamentaly' against LiPo, but, are waiting for the BRCA to step up to the plate, work out a set of rules within the electric board, with the help of the manufacturers. Once that is done, people will buy them, as they can use them for racing other than club.

Like has been said though, there is such a great variation in cell types, current rating, build quality, etc, that this needs to be overcome before you can justifyable allow them legitimately to race in a BRCA sanctioned meeting, and those clubs allowing them on club meets, I do hope they are monitoring the situation, and ensure nobody ends up using Heli or Flight packs.

tee hee, 'points out that DCM said there was a slim advantage - then said there was a "far greater advantage".

if you run to weight, there is a 'slim' advantage, if you don't run to weight, there is a 'far greater advantge', hope thats clear....

note to self - don't trust Jimmy snake in the grass :D:D

Luke has just told me that It was an over charged LiPo he fired down the shaft which blew up my Deathstar!!!


This is Vader logging out forever.

Bye Bye

Vader had to go...

He was created as a Joke but he's had his time now.

I hope no-one is too upset..

lol, nutter!

nowt wrong with a bit of debate though as long as its all reasonably sensible, which I think it was.
:eh?:

nah, not upset, I think there was some sensible comments and statements, even some from me.... :D:D

Compared to some of the other threads that I have read on different forums this has been very tame. Well done all.

Jim, I don't think the 0.0whatever difference between the top matched and normal matched cells makes as much difference as 0.2V. This was highlighted to me when at the first vintage meeting your car was leagues faster than any of ours.

Our cars looked like they were running sealed can stocks, yours could have passed for a mild modified (I know the weight will have made some difference here).

Our rules state the cells must be a nominal 7.2V (currently), lipo is 7.4V. The differences makes the two classes difficult to run together in any of the limited motor classes (stocks & 19t) in my opinion. I know nothing about the technology, is there no way they can be made to 7.2V nominal? You're right at club level this shouldn't make so much difference.

the way the cells is constructed, give it a 3.4V nominal voltage, so for us, you would have two pairs linked in series (to give 7.4V) and those two pairs hooked up in parallel to give you higher capacity. You cou devise a little circuit to cap the voltage, but it would have to have some beefy regulators, to cope with the power demand of an RC Car, especialy at full throttle from rest. People wouldn't use it if it then became a bottle neck for power.