Is it vintage
 

Hi!

What are the rules on vintage upgrades ? What can you do to a car ? For example if I put X11 gears in an old pred I'm not running a vintage car ? And surely part or the fun is keeping them safe etc

I'm not saying I don't agree just interested in the rules ? If that's the case why can't I put an old she'll on my X11 and call it vintage ? As an old pred can be upgraded

At the moment vintage is mainly driven by the ICONIC RC team and there classes are age derived

Personally I have no problem. With using updated gears to keep a predator running I'm currently looking at retrofitting tc3 gear sets to keep our running otherwise the cars are rendered useless cbecause gears are no longer available
Some purists will offer the opposite opinion

My viewpoint having attended the last iconic revival and enjoyed it immensely was that it was a bit too competitive and was more about choosing the best weapon to win with rather than taking part with whatever you have
Im lucky I have plenty to choose from some are not so fortunate
Dave

I guess tc3 parts are retro anyway lol

To me vintage racing has started to get a bit too serious, but I guess that's peoples natural instinct when racing.

I'm more for keeping car with parts available at the time. Others prefer to use more modern parts to be more competitive, whilst others use parts just to keep their car up and running.

im in agreement with last post

im not against modern electronics though :Djust makes things a bit easier

Vintage/ICONIC is a fantastic concept I really enjoy it for me a poor driver I love to see the Old cars of my youth being driven ,im not so sure about the competitive side it needs careful handling to keep its appeal for the majority of enthusiasts

good luck to all involved roll on iconic revival 2017

dave

This is a problem that all vintage series face at some point unfortunately, if you really wanted to stick 100% to the cut off dates.

For example, Losi XX-4 Worlds are regulary used in the pre-1998 class ( which the original XX-4 fits in as it was released in 1997). But the first XX-4 Worlds wern't released until 1999, so in theory shouldnt be racing in any vintage series of pre-1998. So how do you police this without getting too anal about which part was on what model ? If you did, you'd suddenly find nearly all of the XX-4's running in every Vintage series would suddenly be banned, as most of them seem to be Worlds Editions. Scumacher Fireblades & TTech Predators are other examples, ive seen both that are mostly later models that are over the 1998 cut off.

But you can kind of get away with that technicality if the parts used are just one or two years newer as the differences arent that massive, and any advantage they have is relatively minor. Better to have them running than not i think.

The biggest problem ( for me, anyway ) are vintage cars with lots of modern cars parts on them when originals are still available.

I fully understand that when spare parts just arent available at all you should run whatever you can to make the car mobile ( like B4 gearbox internals on Cobra's for example as Mardave originals are completely unavailable, or newer gearbox internals on Preds ), but ive seen so many 'vintage' cars ( including a good few that run at the Iconic series ) running modern parts - new big-bore shocks & springs, CVD's, modern hubs and caster blocks, diffs & gears etc etc - when original parts & spares ARE available that it surely kind of defeats the spirit of the event ?

Just because the orignal gearbox and driveshafts wont handle brushless 6.5 and Lipos and you wont be competitive without modern parts isnt really an excuse in my opinion.

To counter this a little at my own club, Caldicot, did bring in a motor and speedo limit into our latest vintage series which seems to have worked quite well to save old gearboxes and level the playing field.

Standard speedo settings - no turbo or advanced timing - and only 10.5 motors, which seems to have worked out ok. Some people are annoyed they cant run 6.5's, Turbo & Timing in their cars that blast around almost like a modern buggy, but overall most people seem to agree with it and stay roughly in the spirit of vintage racing.

And thats the key. The Spirit of the Vintage. Period car. Period parts. Fun, lower speeds, worse handling than modern and use as close to an original car as you can run.

And big-bores ? Really ?? Sigh....

The water is muddied now with re-releases.

I really wanted to be able to race a rear motor Optima. But I wasn't comfortable doing it with 32dp and no slipper clutch so the re-re is great for me. Is that in the spirit of vintage? I think it depends what you're looking for from a class.

Same for brushless/lipo. I started with brushed in my vintage cars but they are just too much work now (especially in 4wd) and I don't want to be skimming out my vintage brushed motors - so they sit in the cars on the shelves and the ones I run have brushless.

Things have definitely moved on since the first Iconic meetings with more and more people so it's always going to evolve. Personally it's about driving the old cars for me. If I'm at a meeting then yes I will race people with the aim of beating them but it still has to be fun.

Wasn't the TC3 a 1999 release which puts it outside the recongnised vintage of '98 anyway :woot:

Agree with having the choice of using modern electrics.

Also don't mind slippers, just because it takes some of the load off transmissions and as many re-re cars come fitted.

Would like to see 2" wheels and tyres used more in the early groups. RC10 and Cat XLS already have huge advantages, cant see why they need modern 2.2", to beat the likes of Tamiya Frogs, Boomerangs etc, etc.

I'm sure Revival 2017, will be another huge success :)

think most of us agree "vintage" is an excellent series but without careful handling will it become a victim of its own success ?

with the re-release of shumachers XLS you vould have a one make series !!

if schumacher make enough and spares lots of old tired cars will gain a new lease of life

I like idea of motor limits to protect older gears from destruction
for me winning isn't the purpose its taking part and envying other nice toys
dave

Personally I don't think re reps should the allowed in the vintage racers with real vintage cars

My issue when I ran my original optima Ina couple of vintage heats a year or so ago was that there were a few re re rc10s with unlimited spares, going like the clappers and one took out one of my front wishbones. I was running a 17.5 to keep speed sensible.
I don't object to re re at all, and now have the re re optima so I can shelf my original, but when you have a mixed heat it can put the old ones at risk.
Mind you, so does my driving :thumbsup:

As Dyna mentioned, at Caldi we've done a motor limit, but also control tyre of Schumacher minispikes (or Schumacher blocks if 2.2" wheels aren't available) and that seems to have helped.
ReRe cars are allowed but there doesn't seem to be a performance advantage with modern parts.
Other than the 4wd making the 2wds lives a bit harder as we mix classes!

What's wrong with vintage electronics too? batteries I understand, but decent brushed motors and speedos are readily available. Its like when F1 lost the V10's, it just doesn't seem right to me. Don't you all miss the whine of a well tuned 12x3 at the end of the straight?? I ran brushed electrics at the 2014 Iconic meeting in my B3 and brushless cars were just breezing past, but my car sounded a whole lot better.

Certainly don't miss the armature letting go at full noise at the end of the straight lol

No one's interested in the maintenance you have to do on brushed motors now and brush/com wear seems to be accelerated when using lipos.
People grumbled about having to get a 10.5 for our series, they'd probably have not bothered if we'd told them they had to go and buy a new speed controller as well rather than using one from their pitbox.

It was the electrics side of the hobby that was the biggest let down in the 80's so running the vintage buggies on more reliable electrics just seems common sense to me , but I do see the argument for vintage means vintage but the reality is very different and running a vintage buggy with a mild brushless system and a battery that lasts for nearly a whole race meeting is awesome :thumbsup:.

May be there could be room to have a true vintage class and a super vintage or do you think this would be messing to much with a class that's already doing well

I think there could be a danger of diluting classes

I'm sure the last time I read about vintage class you got more "points" for running brushed etc

not sure about points daz

but definitely more street cred (unless your wearing a vintage shell suit and twatty haircut to match while on the rostrum :D:D:D:D:thumbsup::thumbsup:

dave

I seem to remember one of the meeting's rules having a bonus system for brushed motors, 27mhz radio etc.. Can't remember which though.

Iconic Revival 2014 ran a 'nostalgia' points system, with points earned for period correct tyres, period electrics, 27mhz radios etc.

Although it sounds good, I believe the logistics of policing it for what turned out to be such a large event lead to it being dropped for the following year.

People still do well with period tyres and brushed motors.

I totally agree with this.

I ran original tyres on my XLS and Topcat at last years revival (along with brushed electrics and nimh packs) and still made the A-Final with both despite being a distinctly average driver. All the effort that went into the car prep paid dividends for me, which is where I derive most enjoyment.

Brushless electrics and lipo's I can understand for convenience, although I would like to see some sort of motor limit. Tyres I think should be limited to what was available at the time - not necessarily kit standard, but not the modern stuff.

Having said all that, the later classes where I ran a Cougar 2 and Bosscat Works, they can handle low turn brushless motors and modern tyres as standard - so why not? The 93-98 2wd class in particular is fiercely competitive, which is great fun as long as it doesn't spread into all the other classes too.

All just my 2p.

Let's hope that now Schumacher have re released the xls that they will bring back 2.0 mini spikes as the vintage class is crying out for them, if not i will run blocks this year as i have struggled with grip roll the past few years using 2.2 wheels & tyres

General rule of thumb is:

- Rere's are allowed.
- Vintage cars from that era/class are of course allowed with any mods available from that same period. i.e. an Optima Mid with alloy bellcrank steering, lwb conversion etc. Anything you would have seen for example in 1987/1988 for an Optima Mid is OK which makes sense.
- Wheels aren't police'd but I like to run correct wheels. 2.2 inch look silly and some cars are just too narrow for them without modern updates.
- Slipper clutches are allowed.
- However, for example, am Optima Mid with ZXR arms/towers and Cat K1 big bore shocks isn't cricket as these mods wouldn't have been available back then. They should compete against modern buggies which I'm sure is still fun for the driver/owner.
- Power systems/electrics are open - run brushed or brushless assuming your transmission will not give up - which is your risk :)

But yes it is hard to really control without spoiling the fun of vintage racing....and it is BIG fun :)

Cheers,

Dan

personally i say 2" wheels if the car came with them, running one or two particular types of tyre available at that time, for example full spikes or blocks. some later cars were 2.2, but as full spikes and blocks can be found in 2.2..........
for motors, i would say 10.5 limit is a good idea

The wheel and tyre thing makes more difference than anything else. Both in looks and performance. Seeing 2.2" wheels and minispikes on Scorpions and Frogs is in my opinion, just not that much fun. I personally run brushed everything but have no issue with brushless, did pretty well at the Brett Davis event running my XX with a 27T stock. Motors are just not as important as tyres.

I have been roaring around the track with an old lazer ZXr featuring nimh and an old kyosho Leman stock 05 Google IT To many drivers surprise so Easy to drive since IT was so slow but the laptimes was amazed by many

:lol::thumbsup:

Mvh isobarik

i always like these topics, lots of different opinions, but lots of sense being posted in here

i co-ordinate the Vintage Festival held in Sydney, Australia each year

Fortunately for our event we've been able to keep it more on the fun side, most of our classes run the 540 johnson motor, the 2wd and 4wd stock buggy classes use this motor too and they are usually the most popular classes. it levels the playing field and saves transmissions for sure.

We also have open buggy classes too where you can run as much motor as you want. we split our buggies into 2 age groups, 1991 and older and 1996 and older, we also split out the non racing oriented buggies and have separate classes for hotshots and another for the classic 2wds like frogs and wild ones

hop ups need to be period unless its for reliability purposes and doesnt also present an advantage, eg, slippers are ok, 3mm belt setup is ok if you were replacing a 2mm belt setup thats hard to get belts for etc, agreed with Dan regarding the Optima mid example, as soon as lazer parts are added, it gets classified as a lazer

As we run on old school dirt/clay, we allow 2.2" rims. An interesting fact, we also run a 2wd purist class where the old 6 gear rc10s race original ultimas like it was the 87 worlds again, and they have to run on old / original tyres. The foxes/wild ones on modern rubber were lapping quicker than the rc10s which suprised me

Back in the day it was a Track Suit ! The Shell Suit is to modern to use at a vintage event :D

This is my point. Tyres are everything, especially if you are running controlled low power.
Assuming you run the Castle Hill event that I have watched so much of on Youtube? What a great looking meeting and that track is to die for. If I didn't live on the other side of the world I'd be at that club every day.

I had a wild one back in the day and it went very well indeed on the right surface , with modern rubber it would be even better , i never really tuned it up or modified it as i sold it to a club member who nearly begged for it , i always just assumed I'd got a freaky good one but i was more interested in the Metior I'd just got instead .