Standards
 

I have just returned from watching a days off-road racing at Hinckley and was bemused by the application of rules to different heats and finals. I am not a driver myself, but have been attending various races for around 20 years.
Throughout the day numerous drivers failed to put their cars through scrutineering but no penalties were announced despite a warning in the drivers briefing. As the day went on there were many incidents of marshalling being, at best, leisurely, but again no penalties announced. For the finals all drivers were warned that they were to be concentrating while marshalling their races, yet during the 'lower' finals marshals were talking to people outside the fencing and no penalties announced. However, once the A final took to the grid, there was a referee on the podium and one unfortunate marshal was noticed talking to someone behind the fencing (whilst all the cars were at the far end of the track to him it should be noted), he was warned by the referee and immediately stopped talking. After the race though he was given a penalty!
Now I'm not defending that driver, but I am confused as to why the rules are applied during the A finals but not during other finals. I also wonder why, when all drivers are paying the same to race, they are not afforded the same luxury of a referee for their finals and the application of rules accordingly? I heard a number of people around me saying the same thing, not a good thing for potential new drivers to be hearing I'm sure you'd agree. It left me with a bad taste in my mouth, just wondered if anyone else had experienced ' a difference in class' at other meetings?

Unfortunately, its not uncommon to find the A Finalists to be shite at marshaling. It is almost like they think they've done their "time" and marshaling is below them, that said, I hasten to add I'm not taring everyone with the same brush, but, that IS how it comes across. I am just a simple club racer who has gone further a field on the odd occasion.

Again, it is also not uncommon to find some A Finalists shouting from the rostrum if a marshal happens to be a little slow, even through no fault of their own, and it isn't usually a gentle reminder either, quickly followed a berating comment from said driver about shit marshaling. Pots and kettles.

It doesn't look good to the newcomer I admit but, and I'm not making excuses, far from it, but it's highly competitive, tensions can run high, there are some egos out there and that, I'm afraid, It is how it is.

As for the referee, I've never been a driver in a race that requires one, but I've had a grilling from one, I missed a car because I was looking at a more accident prone part of the track at the time. His military attitude left me thinking he was just a bit of a prick, no respect for the bloke whatsoever.

You'll find that these people have been BRCA officials since it started and although it's all voluntary, they think they're army officials, not keeping an eye on a toy car race.

On your other observation, the lower Finals don't matter a toss at meetings that require a Ref.

Coming as someone who has organised racer, volunteers are few and far between, no point having someone inexperienced can't referee and all most people want to do is race. There is no simple answer I'm afraid.

This is why I stopped racing at regional meetings, I just wasn't enjoying them and coming home feeling fed up. They are very competitive for what is mostly the first Sunday meetings that a lot of drivers attend.

The pit banter was quite good but the on track action I really stopped enjoying

I can appreciate that organising events takes a lot of time and effort but if you are going to have rules then surely they must be applied consistently to everyone. The driver punished didnt cause anyone else to lose time in any way. yet in other finals marshalling caused all sorts of issues. As for the referee, he had spent the previous race ranting and raving when he himself crashed and it seemed like sour grapes that he insisted on a punishment. Listening in to the driver trying to put his version of events across was painful, he kept being told that because race control couldnt see the track they had to accept the referees word and that was final- very democratic, no wonder numbers at these events seem to be dropping!

Again, that's how it is. Normally only experienced by those partaking in the meeting. However, to read that a spectator has knowledge of these goings on makes the sport/hobby look bad to the outside world.

I'm sure they're not all like that though, but people only remember the crap.

Mr Church is right on his count that you couldn't have an inexperienced fellow reffing, and he IS a volunteer, not a job I'd want to do, drive around the country to keep an eye on people, BUT, it should be fair, not the double standards we see often.

We are human, a generally flawed species. This very same situation could be inserted in plenty of other scenarios. Why should our hobby escape it just because it's a bit nerdy!

Sad but true in my opinion. Well done on giving us your experience and observations as an onlooker. I feel sometimes that as RC is generally not looked upon as a spectator sport, not from the outside anyway, racers kind of think that no one will notice altercations or double standards as everyone else is too involved in the whole caper and not sat in an armchair with the tv remote shouting at the tv that the ref is a prick.

I think things would change if that were the case.

Standards.
 

Also standards should be brought in where as the TRACK should not be built until the morning of the regional.

Reason,

So that every racer who turns up at the track/regional on the day has EQUAL TRACK KNOWLEDGE !!!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Just found this quote on BRCA website

The Mid-West region is nationally renowned for being one of the best supported and organised regions for 1/10th electric off road racing in the UK. As well as a history of honing some of the nations most successful competitors, the regional series has developed a community of friendly, experienced and knowledgeable racers which we invite you to be a part of.

Whether you're an experienced racer who wants a new challenge or new to the sport you are more than welcome to compete in the Mid-West series.

Our series takes us up and down the region over five events in each class, 2wd and 4wd. each class offers an individual championship with your best three event results determining your championship position - whilst the competition can be intense, the fun factor will always superseed it!

Tony Bishop (Regional Rep)

Would appear that this last line only applies if you are part of the elite clique!

Well said.

There were a couple of instances I saw yesterday where there was shouting from the rostrum towards a marshal/marshals, I thought this wasn't allowed, but it happened and nothing more was said by officials or the referee on the rostrum. Always seems to be the same person or people who continue to do it too.

But that being said, despite the gobby people, all the guys from our club had a mega days racing and have had all year. Looking forward to '16 already.

Agreed, and the person doing most of the shouting was the same referee who gave the penalty- this is my point about double standards!

Will agree it was a great day apart from this.

Whist I generally avoid entering forum discussions I do just want to make one point here...

I have been racing Mid West Regionals this year (albeit 4wd not 2wd so wasn't there yesterday) and the organisation has been second to none in my opinion.

I normally qualify in the bottom 2 or 3 finals and for the most part there is a referee on the rostrum for heats, and always for finals.

Sure it sometimes seems like A finals get more attention, but those points mean championships... and they are 3 leg finals so require a little more attention in some regards.

Let's all remember that they are volunteers. For the most part rules do seem to be applied equally and as a driver who runs at the bottom end of the field I have never seen anything that has made me any less than thankful for the free work that people put in to allow me to go racing.

Ive always gone by the rule of, you marshall, as you expect to be marshalled, hell i only race at small club level now, but i work hard to keep the race flowing, much to the demise of my weak lower back too some weeks.
We have all shouted "marshalllll" if one hasnt seen your car through our years in the hobby, but my god even ive had some abuse here and there.
Its very sad to read this Halo, especially being somebody spectating, Ive no plans whatsoever to race at this level, there has always been an elite clique, that goes so far back i was in my early teens then lol, keep it fun, otherwise, whats the point, blooming shame.

Lee

I am one of the A final racers and just want to stick up for us. I marshal races the way I want to be marshalled during mine, which is as fast as possible.

At the end of the day, if you crash, that is your fault, however it is nice to be marshalled in a timeously fashion. Some marshals aren't as fit or as young as some of us and that also has to be taken into consideration.

I do see lower heats and finals being marshalled at a slower pace, as if their result matters less and it isn't fair, and as previously mentioned, these marshals should also be held accountable.

Just want to add, I race in the Scottish Region but just wanted to add a perspective from our region.

Unless you've got tangled up in someone else's crash or you've been tagged by another car.

Referees are usually experienced drivers and have volunteered their time to do certain heats and finals throughout the day, which we thank them for. Problem is everyone is their own individual and they all do this job to different levels. I didn't take much notice who our referee was throughout the day, but not a peep was heard from him. This would suggest our heat had very clean races, although listening to drivers during the race it would more likely suggest the opposite. I don't want to put referees down, they are volunteers and they are all individuals, but it would be nice to see penalties applied on a more equal standard.

As for Marshall's they are a whole different kettle of fish and should be doing the job they'd expect someone to do for them. Agreed some people are not so young and are going to be a little slower getting to a car. But you also have problems what ever the age group and are usually down to talking, lack of interest and even texting!! The marshalling problem is probably down to less than 10% of the field, but if penalties were handed out to these people then perhaps we would see a large improvement. The BRCA has a whole list of what is required from them, perhaps we should try an adhere to them.

On a slightly different note, could anyone in the know, say what the referees job actually is concerning drivers in that heat? I'm guessing their roll has changed, but it certainly isn't what I remember 20 years ago.

OK, to reiterate what I said earlier, refereeing is a volunteer, if you don't like how it is done then step up and volunteer. In the end everyone who runs the race meeting do it off their own backs and time so rather than criticise ask yourself how you could help?

As for building tracks on the day, really? My day running a regional starts early enough without having to get there to build the track to!

I think the concern was that they may of had a meeting on same track, the day before.

I agree, but an 11.30 start would mean a late finish:confused::lol:

I think my point may have been lost throughout this thread - I'm not criticising the the time and effort put into organising these events, I'm not criticising A finalists marshalling. I am however criticising the application of rules. Many people in the heats and lower finals are subject to inconsistent officiating- how can they therefore improve their times if they have to wait for marshalling during the race because there are no consequences as "it's just the X final". Surely if everyone pays the same, they should be afforded the same level of refereeing as the sponsored drivers, who already have the advantage of chassis, motors, endless tyres etc. I personally think that there is a huge flaw that these drivers are allowed to flaunt the rules while they drive in their races and then be allowed to volunteer to apply those same rules to other drivers.

And I am aware that it is not all drivers have this attitude

Setting track up in the morning....!
 

As a Builder of track obstacles and commitee member at SHRCCC the comment about setting a track up in the morning...... Come on. Have you actually helped set up a track for a regional or any track for that matter (it's more than setting up a track - there are many other things required as well - ie food van, signage, banners, scrutineering area, car numbers, trophies, etc etc)? The amount of work it takes means it's not a quick 10 minute job. I agree that the track layout should be one not used before but whether it is set up a day, a week, or whenever so what? We find a lot of people love to criticise or think they know best, but when it actually comes to helping a club out with their time forget it. Those who shout loudest with the most complaints are usually the ones most likely to contribute bugger all.

Sounds like the Mid-West has a volunteer for a full time ref for next year's regional series...

20 years experience of RC races, willing to ref all races to ensure 100% consistency for all racers at all levels. By volunteering their time (for a thankless task) they will improve the day for all racers and spectators, as well as improving the show for newcomers at the track, well done that person :thumbsup:

I agree with the writer of this thread, a lot of drivers mess around when marshalling and dont pay attention and cost drivers a good qualifier. They deserve penalties, top drivers included. Then there is attitude and mostly from fathers to their kids, not naming any to shame but would like to see someone deal with them as well as its not setting a good example. Yes shouting does happen at marshals on occassion however nine out of ten times you tend to crash where they cant see it, however so long as its not foul mouthed and was a go at them, then an apology normally goes down well afterwards, as the banter track side is normally good.

I do agree with a lot of this but I don't think it's just A finalists. It's all the wAy through you get some people who have Absolutly no interest in marshalling.

Even at nationals you get some that chat, have hands in pockets or stargaze. A lot of time referees and the person on the mic have little interest in lower finals also. It's a shame as everyone is entitled to a good race.

By the way, I aldo race in Scotland and marshalling up here is hideous! Laughable.

On a slightly different note, could anyone in the know, say what the referees job actually is concerning drivers in that heat? I'm guessing their roll has changed, but it certainly isn't what I remember 20 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Don't know the definitive answer to the job role but having raced in the NW regionals the race referee is there to monitor and warn about driving standards, ensures that there's order on the rostrum and advises drivers when they're about to be lapped so as to aid a fluid race.

Simple answer to this issue is to marshal the way you expect to be marshaled.

On the track issue it is not realistic or fair to expect the track to be built on the day. If the post about a track layout being used before is aimed at Hinckley I can guarantee you that layout was not used before. Yes they race on a Saturday but then change the layout for the regional. Anyway any one who's regional is there local club will of course have an advantage. Thats just normal. Anyway thats not what this thread was about.

Sarcasm is a great way to encourage people to take up racing- as you can see from the majority of people in this thread this is an issue throughout the country. If I can see it as a spectator, then there must be hundreds of drivers who can also.

Get stuck in then, and show us all how it's done!

There isn't a need to show people what to do, it's obvious that people are very capable of refereeing races correctly. The issue is that they pick and choose when to apply rules depending on which race is on the track at that time.

Agreed...almost as good as going to watch a meeting, getting annoyed because your friend got a penalty, setting up an anonymous account on here and moaning about the hard work of volunteers...almost, but not quite!

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand what you are stating and it is true in lots of circumstances, the ref needs to be an experienced racer and, to get consistency you need 1 maybe 2 ref's sharing the role for the day, but who do you get, I am sure the experienced guys are there to race, if they are racing then they can't be unbiased etc.

In the end of the day, abiding the rules first and foremost comes down to the racer to follow the rules and the racer to marshal promptly like it is them who has crashed. If you need a minder up on the rostrum permanently then the people racing need to have a word with themselves.

Thanks to those who have posted

Yes, there should be a uniform application of the Rules. There are anything between 50 and 120 drivers at a race, and anything from 5 to 12 heats/finals. There are ten cars on a large track at any one time covering scores of laps per race and final. And the Referee has one pair of eyes...

The 10OR Rules are quite clear about the officials you need at a sanctioned meeting. If the officials are not there, what do you elect to happen? Don't run the event? Stop the event multiple times because the officials are off having a pee or a drink or something to eat? None of the above. And even if the Ref is present, he can only watch one piece of track at a time and your 'accident' has a greater chance of being not in the Ref's eyeline than being in his eyeliner. It is by definition almost impossible to have a uniform application of the Rules without people volunteering to help out.

I sympathise with your point of view, but unless you have something to offer as an alternative to voluntary people with one pair of eyes then the answer lies with the drivers, not the officials - behave yourselves and stick the Rules. Perhaps it would be a good start if everyone read the Rules!!

At 12th Scale Nationals every heat has a referee. Yes, the standard might be variable, but I don't think it any co-incidence that the standard of driving is higher than in any other class I race, or have raced. These guys are volunteers and they give of their time freely during a meeting. They are all racers. Marshals take their job seriously and do the best they can to get cars back on the track - they want others to do the same.

The many drivers who have been around the 12th scale block a few times make it their business to talk to the people new to the class and remind them of their obligations. We race Stock classes extensively (LMP12, GT12, GT10 and F1) so we all know that causing a collision is bad for both parties, and holding people up in qualifying is not on - one day it will be us on for that really good time.

We aren't angels, but we work together to make the racing as clean as possible. Noticeably it is at the non-BRCA races when the horns and elbows come out and you get the racers trying to get a good time at all costs - no referees!

As I said, I sympathise. But unless individuals are prepared to take a role and help everyone have a better day's racing, this will remain a feature of most meetings. Go an have a go at being a referee and applying the rules. I don't know of any organiser or Race Director who would refuse an offer of help.

At Mid East regionals whoever is car 1 in each heat has to referee the next race unless it's a child. Volunteers are also asked for on the entry form. I think this is a good way to solve the problem.

Is it compulsory for refs to wear eyeliner?:p