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Are 1/10th tracks abit boring
As title really i've raced at quite a few tracks around the UK and not one of them have decent size jumps. After racing at RHR Dirt over the weekend i found it a lot more enjoyable and fun with some decent size jumps or is a lot of it down to health and safety now ?
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You want to get down to our club Silverstone RCMCC in Northamptonshire. Track lay out is always good and jumps obstacles are of a decent size.
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Good read
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Personally speaking I don't like the Supercross-style jumps. Growing up in the 80s, UK tracks didn't have jumps (maybe the odd 6-inch high wooden ramp), but the racing was great. Big jumps don't give good racing in my opinion, you are always focussing on getting around the track (or avoiding missiles) rather than going wheel-to-wheel with the other cars.
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I have to agree with sosidge...! More destructive crashes are caused by big air ,because you can't steer off ground and some people will try to pass by jumping further, than almost anything IMO....
Bear in mind we have 1/10 scale cars so, I think, a one foot high jump equals 10 feet, to the car....so 3, 4 and5 foot jumps are just not realistic..fun maybe to the gung-ho brigade..but dangerous.. |
Definitely not enough air time on most 1/10 tracks if any at all :(
And buggy supercross f#*k yeah I'd buy some a that action |
This is an interesting discussion, here in the South I love the big jumps at TORCH (god only knows I paid enough for all my Kyosho shocks, I want to use them!) but at the same time the easiest way to crash out of a heat when you're doing well is to try and go big over the tabletop/ski jump when a few other cars are on it.
Big jumps are great IMO, it's part of good racecraft to take it easy over them when they're busy and go for the full on orbit experience on the next lap when you've got them to yourself. |
I have to agree with Paul.
Massive jumps are good, but not suitable for everyone. I'd like to see more take offs with down ramps rather than to flat. ,things like where you have to time things right, some rollers that you could double single. Tracks to me tend to be more straights than anything else, and I feel this is why people run fast motors. If we had more things to slow us down, then it doesn't require a fastest motor but can still get the enjoyment out of it. |
There are a few tracks in the mid south region with decent sized jumps which in my opinion adds to the off road racing as said drivers choice safe or go for glory.
If there wern't any jumps might as well race touring cars! As for no steering in the air Lee Martin was turning his 4wd car 90degrees at the Stotfold National this year in mid air amazing to watch. |
I'm an old school racer so not a fan of the Supercross type tracks, especially the ones in the States. I'm certainly not against sensible jumps but other obstacles are available to make racing wheel to wheel without big air, which I'll admit I can struggle with on occasions.
My other worry with big air. Is when the day comes that a marshal gets a serious head injury, seen some very close ones in the past. |
Now I stopped racing on the flat snoring tracks just because of this, it's flat !
But when tracks go to far it just leads to a few drivers taking their ability to far and try to clear not only the jump which the up-ramp was designed for but the next two, or trying to get the Guinness Book of Records Height record ! I believe off road needs jumps, table tops, rumble strips, doubles, triples etc etc, but drivers need to respect their ability, their cars proformance, track limits and most important human safety, namely mine when I Marshall the said racers. |
IMO, jumps are a nice addition to a track, but all too often their design is not carefully considered. I think the following things apply for jumps to compliment a track:
- Average drivers should be able to clear jumps comfortably and consistently in all classes that drive on the track (for stock classes this may mean a big jump can't be cleared as a double, but not negatively affecting the track's rhythm). - Jumps should not interfere with the ability to have close racing on the track. - Jumps should be forgiving when a car goes out of shape somewhat. - If a car crashes around a jump the chances of damage or ending up on another section of the track should be minimized. - Jumps should not form a safety hazard for marshals. I've seen too many tracks where jumps are so difficult to clear well (particularly 2WD) that you're not racing anymore, but you're trying to manage your car over jumps to prevent damage. They become race-deciding features due to the amount of crashes and mistakes people make there (even pro's) instead of how closely drivers can follow each other over those jumps. And don't get me wrong... this doesn't have to stand in the way of big jumps... it's just that a jump should not just be designed only for the perfect situation, but also allows for a fun drive with a wide variety of speeds and driver skills and not an RC graveyard behind the jump. As a nice example of nice big jump IMO is this jump at the track of Kampenhout in Belgium. It's not huge (and the early landing on the picture doesn't do it justice), but it's a clean and relatively flat ramp, the jump is long, structures surrounding the track minimize influence by wind and the landing slope is long - the perfect recipe to scale up further if desired. The jump is not the challenge though, it's in landing it so you get through the slippery cobblestone hairpin just right. Too fast and you'll go wide, not far enough and the rear end kicks up and the car spins out. Get it just right and you can break out the rear end on the cobbles, straighten the car and floor it before you get off the cobblestones. Hitting is well is perfectly feasible, but chances are slim you'll hit it perfectly each lap for an entire heat, which gives drivers the opportunity to race literally race alongside each other into the next corner(s) :thumbsup: |
1/10th tracks
watch this how can you say these tracks make boring races.
2011 IFMAR OFF ROAD WORLDS - A Final Leg 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgf7nvsrFb4 |
to me one of the best tracks i have raced on is the herts 1/8th dirt track, to me its really flowy, but got enough features.
all abilities can get round, but some features that make you think. like the jump after the first bend, you have to roll the 1st hump, to get the down ramp to power the next jump, if you dont get it right you have roll it. tracks in the uk dont require much thought and control. |
Except that in the first 30 seconds of that clip I saw several of the worlds very best drivers wiping out over the big jumps and needing marshaling. In the Worlds A final!
If they can't always clear a jump its certainly not suitable for less awesome drivers to use. Big jumps are great, but they should never be 'do or die' and the cost of rolling them to protect your car should never be so great as to make it an unthinkable option. I have seen a marshal knocked out cold by a car hitting him on the forehead marshaling a big jump. |
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Its not the jumps/features that cause the problem they the hazard the danger is the individual on the tx, they not only don't respect the track but quite a few don't respect the other drivers and drive straight through them as well.
You can make a track flat and someone will still crash at the end of a straight by out braking themselves. I have raced at RHR and like the layout more like a 1/8th track and am looking forward to the National there at the end of the month. |
Regarding jumps... that word is the problem. There is rarely enough emphasis on the landing. That is why RHRD works - they have designed and built the perfect size and angle of down ramps so that they can be taken at any speed by any level of driver.
It should also be noted that the jumps at RHRD are not particularly "big air", they are more "big distance" |
personally i dont mind the odd jump as long as it is sensibly designed and sensibly placed on the track so that it is not a lottery as to whether you get over it or not. personally i can never get a double right, buggered me up a treat this weekend they did, the track had a double double, can only think of four times(laps) in the whole meeting running two classes that i successfully got past them without cartwheeling, rolling or getting stuck. the design was such that if you rolled over the third, you just nosedived and rolled, or if i gave it a bit of stick i nosed into the up ramp of the fourth and rolled, or if i cleared the lot i rolled. plenty of others managed perfectly well but not good for the old schoolers like me....
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It's not the jump thats usually the problem, its the landing.
Too many times you see down-ramps that are far to short.. Downramps need to be huge - Wide and very long.. And not into a sharp braking zone as you basically have parked cars waiting for you when you land, you need them into a nice piece of flowing track. |
I like big teacks woth big jumps however
I also like small tracks with small jumps and ruts and bumps Ok you need two cars set up differently but they are two different styles and both have their merits |
If those big jumps didn't exist, I would be tempted to return to Off-Road for some 2WD action, a class I really enjoyed back in the day. Driving skill does not include a pilots ability to trim an aircraft in flight in my world.
More importantly, new drivers must find them very intimidating as they cannot learn driving skills with the wheels off the ground, only the skills of shelling out for spares and rebuilding the car - not what we came into this hobby to enjoy! As James says it is not the up bit that matters, it is the landing. Look at a major rally stage where the car takes big air - it isn't height it is length, and the landing areas are long, wide and flat. Correctly designed, a feature that gives a car 20 feet in the air only a foot above the ground means that the lesser driver can do it along the ground by slowing down, and the better drivers can give it beans for a fast time. Simple, straight no big risks to take for driver or marshal. It seems from James' post that a visit to RHR might be in order for someone looking for some 2WD action in the summer months! :thumbsup: |
I think the percentage of breakages due to crashes and wear and tear around the track heavily outwiegh that done on jumps.
I can understand if a ramp is a bit oversized or angled as to make it difficult but isnt that the idea to make it a challenge for the pros and a learning curve for the novice, of course blowing a jump out of proportion is pointless as slowone said long and low or make it slow and high as long as the landing is suitable, slapping your buggy down on the flat from a height 2 metres passed the landing to me says something isnt right |
Our tracks have become pretty dull recently not due to having no large jumps, but because of the stupid velcro like astroturf that seems to be slowly infecting everywhere. That combined with a generally rough surface makes it more a case of getting the car just safe enough to still be fast and trying to plod round at 25% - hoping the car's not going to spit itself off the track because you went 1 inch further to the right/left this lap.
That 2011 Worlds video is a bad example of arguing the case for big jumps, the quad in front of the rostrum was horrible with a downside on the 4th jump that was shorter/steeper than the takeoff. You could just about hit it but you had to hit the same distance to within about 6 inches, which even the slightest gust of wind would affect no matter how good you are! |
Doesn't help that the cars are getting faster and faster.
An 8th scale nitro sized track from 10 years ago is now too small for a 10th 2wd, the jumps that no one would have been able to clear in a car of the next scale down are now merely features on the track surface. |
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Long straight sections & high Jumps just don't cut it anymore... A track should be technically challenging and not just point n squirt! Tracks should have Numerous small features, track surface and terrain changes, varying degrees of bends and corners and a single, signature element such as a crossover is way better IMO... Going fast and jumping high isn't challenging any more it's boring...! We need to make drivers think and plan their way around a circuit, make it stimulating to all our senses... Hhmm... Maybe I'm getting old..?! |
at Benfield rc club we make the track tighter and harder to negotiate with the effect of making the driver work harder so that on the regulated tracks it becomes easier, I know its harder for the newer drivers as we promote newer younger drivers in our club actively but we aim to increase there skills and hopefully give them an enjoyable experience.
its not called 1/10 OFF ROAD for nothing ! |
It is not about big jump. track surface do matter, I liked the track that has various surfaces (wood sheet, polished gym floor, high/low grip carpets) rather than 100% astroturf all way around.
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I must admit i like all tracks.
rhr dirt has more about it jump wise and very fun and they are acheivable and very satisfying! Astro is great all weather just about anyway not monsoons Slippy tests throttle control rather than throttle jamming, rhr dirt and worksop great examples with 2wd My only down i feel coming back to racing a few years now is the adaptability, tracks are forced to be the same surface everywhere or as much as poss, and its same all day. Thats my only view and why i like our two grass rounds. Grass just gave alternative surfaces each corner and changed per run. Then you had to adapt and use more skill id say but in a different way. I dont dislike any track i just like change. |
I like this with a shorter main straight and bigger width :
http://youtu.be/jTFXwlaj6NY (JMRCA 1990 2wd final) plus a long but close to the ground jump as someone mentioned earlier Less pressure to get it absolutely right , lots of sliding ,less strain on the cars (equals more affordable cars esp 4wd ) , less time lost when you get marshaled ad the occasional FF or oddball Rwd buggy thrown in with no embarrassment because it can't succeed in the analogy of jumping a full scale rally car over a small river each and every time, each and every lap I see this 2011 worlds jump - stressful it must have been for drivers whose salary/bonuses are directly related to mistakes on taking that jump. |
Why not keep the current tracks but use controled slower motors. With everyone on the same speed level it should make the racing better.I know that this isn't an option that would work at every track.
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The beauty of mod motor is who cares what kit you have, its all down to skills and the best drivers come out on top and the heats make sure you are in a final appropriate to your skills. |
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When I was 13 in 1987 I did everything the hobby industry told me to do, bought a kit/radio etc and built it in my room while all my mates were out getting p!ssed in bus shelters but thanks to Beatties being such a bunch of ripoff merchants no-one my age could afford the "ball bearings, CVA shock unit set and super hot RX540VZ (pronounced "vee-zee" for those who were there at the time) Technigold motor" shown in the Tamiya videos running in an endless loop from 9am until 5.30pm, and all our cars just got slower and slower as the silver can 540 motors wore out. How depressing. How dreary. How British. This had a profound effect on me and I promised myself that one day i'd have an RC car with more power than I could possibly use. Consequently that's one of the main things that draws me to the hobby to this day, the fact that unlike in real life you can have a car with an absurd power-to-weight ratio and completely unrealistic (but fun) levels of performance and I want to keep it that way. I'm not a crazy driver but I see plenty of people with more talent than me who are able to lap faster with less power so good luck to them, but trouser-fillingly fast is the way I like it, it's kind of like owning a CR500:drool: without the inconvenience of hospital food |
I can even remember a conversation with a club mate about how to open a sealed 27t can and upgrade without getting found out.
Rewinding, better magnets, tweaked timing, them how to reseal the motor so it looked box fresh. Not to mention the guys who would buy a box full, find the best one or two then sell the rest on. This still happens in Scalextric, but isn't really a big deal, as the motors are only a fiver a pop. Blinky or sealed can isn't really the best option, it's an option, but there are better ways of doing it. |
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Drivers would rather have an undriveable rocket ship than a more controllable and over a full lap a faster car ! When I started an indoor on road club 10 years ago, we wanted to start a junior heat with control electronics to help the youngsters into the sport/hobby, many of the parents objected because they thought their 6 year old could handle the same car setup they could as adults. To much Power just leads to an uncontrollable crash at the end of the straight or in our world at the bottom of an over enlarged set of jumps. We first need to be able to control our cars before we press the nitrous bottle switch ! Just IMHO |
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I do take your point though, it's true that when you have less power or you know you don't have any spares with you it can sometimes improve your driving. Respect your opinion mate, like I said on page 1 this is an interesting topic:) |
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a spec class only means driver push their equipment to the limit, and when a new speedo/motor is released everyone buys it to see if its quicker. my motor in my buggy is over 3 years old and still fast enough for me. too much power does not lead to a crash, the driver going too fast leads to the crash |
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The down ramps are normally the issue and where the jumps are actually positioned. The lead up to jumps is also important Basically get someone that knows what they are doing and the track could simply be amazing with some big jumps. Just don't forget the major ingredient which is key. You have to be able to 'RACE' on the track. Don't make it an obstacle course. Just my opinion, bigger jumps please!! |
agree with the above really especially after racing at rhr last weekend. The dirt track is amazing (my first go at 10th dirt) after that i honestly wish there was more dirt\clay tracks. Imo, proper off road tracks! IM envious of the guys in the states very much so now, its a shame we cant get clay tracks under roofs like the yanks have.
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I think RHRD is the perfect example of how a UK off road track should be. today's off road tracks are bland and to be honest, boring as! I know we don’t have the facilities like they do in the states or like RHR do, I’m not saying every track should be like RHR but they did get it right in the design ;-).
and as for it not being good for introducing new blood, doesn’t racing on a proper 3d track ( not just big jumps but elevation changes as well) seem more appealing than a flat grass/astro track with a few wooden bits chucked in? the PlayStation generation of today will soon pick up the skills required for jump style racing so I wouldn’t worry about that :-) |
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