Storm Valley sugar or no sugar ???
 

Storm valley raceway have a simple question we would like to ask

Sugared track or no sugared track ???

As most are aware the track is a dirt track but a lot of 1/10 drivers seem scared to come and race because they struggle with the grip on dirt so what are your thoughts on the above

Thaks
Jared
Storm Valley

If you decide to sugar, will it be done for the Mid West regional? If so, won't the nominated tyres (Holeshot M4) be wrong?

Not sure how I feel about sugaring, anything that keeps the surface consistent is good as the grip is definitely better when damp. But I hear tyre wear is high on some of the US tracks that have been sugared and at £12 a pair for tyres, thats going to discourage people.

From the times I've been, its clear that there is a definite advantage to having run on the surface and in particular, the layout before. Will sugaring reduce that advantage? Maybe...

I've read one of the things they do in the US is use tyre sauce - maybe thats another option to consider?

I haven't driven on your track, but I'm used to running low bite and I love it! If people want to go on-road driving with jumps they have plenty of tracks to go to! I really hate the trend that tracks are getting more and more bite, we have touring cars for tracks with bite!

Buggies are made to soak up bumps and to face the struggle to find grip head on, buggy racing is all about powersliding your way past the competition, not about who can griproll the least amount of times.

If people are scared to drive at your venue, could it be your jumps are too demanding? 2WD, and in general most racers, will struggle with demanding jumps on low bite tracks. Like I said before, there are plenty of tracks with the most crazy jumps, but venues with low bite are something becoming quite scarce - keeping low bite at your venue I would say gives you a very unique selling point.

Also, consider this: Low-bite tracks often have low(er) tire wear. With a sugared track you may see people using two sets for one race day, and if people have to spend twice as much on tires just because the track is sugared, I'm not sure that'll help business...

I don't think I'll have to summarize it, but I would like to say it's not meant to criticize your inquiry or make a rant... I do have a strong opinion on it though: Don't ruin what you have, instead I would use it as a way to identify your venue with :)

I would say leave the track as it is and just alter the jumps as they are very agressive for a low grip track.

I enjoy racing at storm valey when I get the chance to get up there but to be honest if I had to use two sets of tyres for one meeting then I would not race there as i could not afford that.

i say NO to sugar.

+1 on the jumps. Its less of an issue for 4wd but 2wd definitely agree. Slopes, berms and ripple sections would be better features than the great big jumps IMO.

I don't go very often as its about 1h 10m to get there but I do enjoy driving round the track when I'm there. The big features make close racing difficult too, especially as its a surface which is alien to most UK racers.

I'd agree with what's been said so far, when I came down to race I thought the surface was spot on.

The whole point of sugaring tracks is to stop them breaking up and keep grip levels consistent throughout the meeting, Storm didn't have either of these problems when I came to race.

As has been mentioned tyre wear will go up a lot as the grip comes up. From my experience racing on blue/black groove in the US it can get to the point of a set a run then bin, this would definitely put people off! One of the best bits about the surface as it is is that people don't have to shell out for tyres they can't use elsewhere, and if the tyres last a few meetings it's not a big investment for one or two meetings to come and try the track out.

I'd also agree on the jumps being a bit less aggressive, although I know they have been skimmed down to be a bit less vertical since I came. I quite liked the challenge of making sure you had to get a decent exit from the corner before to make some jumps rather than being able to squirt from the base of the jump and make it easily like most jumps we have over here, but I can see how people could struggle with 2wd.

I vote no :)

No sugar

having never visited SV to date I'm not put off by the grip. I'll deal with that and learn to drive on it. However if the reports were that tyres were wrote off after a few runs I wouldn't even bother coming to try.

£25 (4wd) a set that last a meeting... no thanks.

no sugar please.

I think that Storm Valley is a great venue with big positives a some negatives but for me the pros outweigh the cons by a lot but that's obviously not true in most people's opinion cos turnouts seem to be very low. The positives are obvious (full time indoor clay track - nuff sed). Negatives? Well, it seems something HAS to change or the venue will surely close and that would be a real pity. I really like the sugar idea but only with the inclusion of a tyre rule. One where you are allowed one set of a particular type of tyre per meeting. Maybe in a hardish compound to ensue they last the whole event. My opinion is, and from what I've heard others say the problems are, in order of importance:-

1) Too small. Especially for gas 1/8. Personally I think it is a little small but not terrible so. It just seems small because speeds are very low. This is because the low grip combined with a difficult jump and other slowing hills and lumps causes you to end up nursing your car around a slippery obstacle course and that's not much fun. I think a higher grip surface would transform the track especially if the cars were helped rater than hindered to get some speed up by for example entering the straight down a slope then into a modestly banked corner at the end of it.

2) Haven't got a rear motor 2wd? Few people these days have one and even if they have one that can be made into one like the losi 22 can't be fussed changing it. Making the track mid motor 2wd friendly is certainly in my book a very good idea especially as that is the trend worldwide anyway.

3) Pitting. The pitting is good, just a little cold especially in winter so perhaps sealing the walls better and a large gas heater would be good. The denial of use of the mains power seems bizarre to me. I'm sure the consumption of power from charging cells is trivial. Personal electric heaters maybe but charging? It's just an unnecessary nuisance to have to bring your own generator or 12v truck battery.

4) 5 minute gaps between races. Too long by 3 minutes. 2 min gaps are plenty to for changeover and for marshals to get to positions safely. Standing on the rostrum for ages waiting is very frustrating. This is for electric. 5 mins I'm sure is ok for gas.

5) jumps. Most people say they are too harsh or just too big. I think they are all perfectly fine apart from the one in front of the rostrum that still seems to need more softening. This jump is the biggest culprit for slowness as stated before. I've seen many cars get stuck and even slipping backwards. It's just too slow a section and hinders the flow and fun factor too much. I know a faster flowing grippier track would reduce lap times significantly but that's ok, just have 8 car heats. 8 car heats are fine and better than tripping over too many other cars on an overly hazardous track.

In short sugaring the track, making it more flowing, allow mains power use for charging and cutting gaps to 2 mins are in my opinion very good ideas.

I agree with the above. The jump in front of the rostrum made the race more about how to get the speed perfectly right, get it wrong and you slip backwards or to fast and you flip the car over. Very frustrating and not much fun.

I would also like a more relaxed race meeting, ie. be able to practice on the track before the start of the meeting and between final round and finals as I come to race to have fun and drive my car as much as I can and also allowed to get the car on the track before the start of the race.

Dirt is alien to me but I think after a few times you would learn and get used to it and agree on keeping tyre costs down.

I have been once and these things put me off as I also have a hour drive to get there too. Improve on the above and I would give it a go again.

It's probably not down to the track - I assume the wear rates you refer to are of ProLine Holeshot tires? They wear down at the first sight of clay! I suggest you use something with a less delicate and small profile. For example, ProLine Blockades are already a bit chunkier but has a similar tread - perhaps it's worth a shot? Then there's also the ProLine Caliber, which is not the most grippy tire I tried (though I don't find the Holeshot much better), but it's tread life is really decent - I've done two meetings with most sets I used!

Only been to Storm Valley the once and for a dirt track with M4 Holeshots I thought the grip was amazing.

The downfall for me and I could say the same with some other tracks. Is why make a track so difficult with jumps and slab sided bomb holes, that make it so unpredictable for racing. I'm all for jumps, rhythm sections, bomb holes, ripples and rutted up corners but they need to be flowing and make it approachable for everyone.

One problem you need to consider is the size of the track its quite compact, but as has been proved in the past it is doable. I would prefer to see the track designed more like a US track of the early 90's and not like these stadium/arena type tracks with huge jumps of today.

I say stay away from the sugar as the grip levels are there Then get a flow to the track, put in a few sections that will slow drivers down but are achievable for any level of driver to get through and you'll have a winner.

Good luck

catch 22
 

I have been to practice there a couple of months ago, and i loved the place.
It was challenging getting around the track with a 2wd but still great fun. i didnt think the grip was high even with holeshots on. I was using a 10.5 motor.
The jump in front of the rostrum was very tricky!
Would making the track 1/ 10 friendly put off the 1/8 guys though?
I really cant understand why the 1/8 crowd arent massively enthusiastic about it. Decently stocked shop on site, all weather racing, friendly and helpful owner and a good track!
I expected a huge response on maxbashing forum when the track was announced but didnt seem to get the large amount of interest i would have expected.
It might be an idea to make it a bit more suitable for 1/10, maybe the 1/8 guys that do use the track would accept a compromise.
As for the sugar, just change the control tyres and i cant see a problem.
I think the owner has provided what a lot of people were asking for, and the old expression use it or lose it springs to mind.

Nice to see what people's thoughts are - please keep them coming interesting to see and it can only help us to reach the right decision and also the right changes to make the venue better

Also good to see what bad points there are to the venue as some things can be the slightest thing to us but a massive thing to the racer :)

Just a thought......although dirt/clay tracks sound good and some drivers think they are the best type of surface, I believe most drivers , myself included, prefer the cleanliness and consistency of an astro turf track.! The only other dirt track is RHR and that is only used a few times a year..
Do away with the big obstacles and go astro turf..

Why don't you just sugar it once and try it? If it's rubbish just wash it away..

That's a v good point. Sugaring isn't necessarily a permanent thing so can be tried easily and I'd love to try it. Like a mini worlds...! I really like your Saturday racing idea a lot. It works for silverstone very well. I'd book in right now for a Saturday or sunday sugared track meet. If you implement the other things I mentioned and market it well I'm sure it would be a real winner. A summer Saturday series would also be brill.

I have raced both my 1/8 nitro and 1/10 electric at storm valley and loved it :wub personally I love lower grip surfaces, no sugar. I know you guys have problems with the electric when its under too much load, but it's a reason I don't come back more often as I find charging up a hassle.

After once driving 200 miles to the track and arriving a bit early and then experiencing the not warm welcome from the owner, then talking to the Proline rep I would think that people not returning may not all be about the track. Loved the track but very rude owner could do with some people skills. Nothing would get me back not even the offer of free tyres that the Proline rep offered as compensation for his rudeness. (thats polite compared to how he spoke)

Do we know what days Storm Valley is open now? I know it used to be all week, but is it limited to the weekend only now?

Through the winter months it's just been weekend only no plan to change it currently until May

Regard
jared

So the general concenus is that it's not the grip it's more about the actual jumps and track ???

Power is something we didn't think was that much of a issue but it obviously is so we can now get that looked at

Big question is then if the track was made for 1/10th in mind and a hope that the 1/8th boys would still use it is that something that the 10th drivers want and would use ???

Or are we just wasting our time, effort and money because all the 10th boys want is astro ???

Jared,

Thanks for that.

Cheers.

Yes I was referencing the control tyre...

From reading the previous posts it does seem to be the quality of the track and not the grip that is the issue with racers,as for whether 10th drivers would use it alot more in the future then i would think the midwest regional coming up will give you some of the answers by what is thought of it then,for the regional i have the best part of a 2 hour drive so i'm hoping you get things sorted,seeing video's of the size of the track it will be interesting to see how 10 car heats and finals work as i read that the quick guys are doing 16-17 second laps and to me that could be carnage in qualifying with overtaking and lapping cars,the times i have raced on dirt i have really enjoyed it and i hope this works out to be a good meeting.

Or are we just wasting our time, effort and money because all the 10th boys want is astro ???..quote

Let's face it, astro would have benefits for yourself being easier to maintain etc, and much easier for most drivers to just turn up with the tyres they use elsewhere...not having to buy "dirt" tyres which are no use anywhere except RHR....!
It's sometimes good trying to be different, but economics say, go with the most popular..
The principle of a permanent indoor track is brilliant....:thumbsup:

If there is a control tire, why not take a tread with superior tread life (even if it has slightly less grip)? :) For me it wasn't a night and day performance difference, so if that counts for everyone it may be worth looking into something more durable

My opinion is that if you made the track 10th specific, I think that there would be much more interest. I know of a couple of people who have been and were put off because, I think, not so much of the low grip, but the big features that were very difficult to navigate on account of the low grip. having run 4wd round on my most recent visit, the grip issues were not as large (as expected) but having several cars running round and navigating the "obstacles" at different speeds could be a problem.

On a personal note, the last time I came to run, I planned a full day but left at lunchtime on account of all the Nitros - if they are not barging you off the track (cos lets face it, the track is small for 10th, for 8th it must seem very small) then the constant running of the cars in the pits and the "fog" of exhaust in the track arena soon make the novelty of running on dirt evaporate. Its not a criticism of the facility or of Nitro per-se, rather the co-existence of 10th and 8th on the same day! Other tracks I've been to where both run at the same meeting have had the same problem (except for fumes, cos they were outside).

The question here is not really should things be left alone. It's a question of what needs to be done as it is obvious that something has to change. No club can survive with repeatedly low turnouts. With this in mind it's just not valid to say I don't come to your club but I do like it the way it is. Actions speak louder. If drivers liked it, they'd go - but they aren't, so by definition, they don't like it - regardless of what they say.

Sugaring clay tracks is in vogue and should be embraced as a new exciting development in serious buggy racing. Given that something dramatic has to happen and sugaring is as dramatic as is practical at that venue. It has to be worth a try.

Other reasons why people aren't going..

1) lack of momentum. I think people haven't been going because hardly anyone else is! It's a catch 22 thing. To be busy you need to be popular in the first place.. I think sugaring might be the nudge needed.
2) lack of friendliness. Mentioned before I think this is a much bigger factor than has been admitted so far. I have noticed a stern atmosphere and think the meets are run too strictly but I personally don't think it's unfriendliness, just an overly austere attitude. I think people are interpreting this as a non fun club and prefer to race more relaxed elsewhere.
3) I know I said it before but I think it's not been given enough recognition and worth restating. People haven't got rear motor 2wd cars and they don't want to slither round with a mid motor car which will need major setup changes from the astro setup currently on their car. A sugared track will cure all that. Since 2wd is far more popular than 4wd this is a very big problem, probably the biggest and the main reason why I have not been going recently.

Certainly why I've not been tempted to go along when some of my friends have gone.

If people are going and finding the meetings are being run overly strict and not fun then there is another reason people are possibly staying away,as previously mentioned someone was spoken to rudely and to be fair nobody wants that do they,its a hobby and mean't to be fun so if your running meetings that are not fun then that will spread faster than how ever good or bad the track is.

Also as Toby has said,10th and 8th don't mix on the same day for the stated reasons he said,i would of been pretty unamused if i had driven a distance to find nitro's being revved up in the pits and choking the place out,it's not enjoyable listening to it all day outdoors so it certainly would be another reason not to go with your indoor pitting.

As for sugaring the track,you have nominated m4 holeshots for the regional so that can't be changed and if sugaring the track means a minimum of 2 sets per day then you have no chance of getting numbers there,best part of £50 on tyres for a day,fuel race fees etc that would stand me about £100 and no track is worth that for a hobby.

Originally Posted by ahhseeten
3) I know I said it before but I think it's not been given enough recognition and worth restating. People haven't got rear motor 2wd cars and they don't want to slither round with a mid motor car which will need major setup changes from the astro setup currently on their car. A sugared track will cure all that. Since 2wd is far more popular than 4wd this is a very big problem, probably the biggest and the main reason why I have not been going recently.

Yet another reason for changing to astro turf...!

I have to say, Indoor Astro Turf sounds good to me. It fixes a number of issues.

1st, 'Cost' you only need one set of tyres that work on astro, and those tyres will last a good number of meeting, for both 10th & 1/8th. The problem with Dirt tracks is you need Dirt Tyres, and those dirt tyres don't last long! And then there's the problem of what dirt tyre works the best and in what compound. e.g, you go out and by £90 worth of dirt tyres, turn up at the track, and none of what you just bought work all that well, or are not the tyre to have for that track. Or, the tyre to use works best in super soft compound but they only last 2-3 runs! If your on a full FOC sponsored drive then it's not a problem, but most racers are on a budget, and they race to have fun! I don't see where the fun is in trying to compete with who's got the best tyres and how many new sets of them tyres you can put on your car in a meeting.

2nd, once the track is put down, it needs very little maintenance. And if Layout right, is just as good and as much fun, for both 1/10th and 1/8th.

3rd, Because you have all the grip you need, both 2WD & 4WD become more consistent around the track, and also on the take off and landing of the jumps. Just because the cars have grip, does not make the the track like a touring car track. You make it off road by the layout of the track, making it technical enough to give the fast guys something to think about, yet consistent enough for the club level racers to be able to get round the track without getting frustrated with not being able to jump the car or it spinning out on every other corner. The old Stoke S.N.R.C Astro track was on the small side, but it was always brilliant to race on, they made the most out of the space they used, and the track always had plenty of technical features in it, that made it fun to drive for all levels of ability.

If I ran a club like Storm Vally, I would ask myself, do I build a track that realistically is aimed at those number of drivers that do the Nationals 'On Dirt' so they have somewhere they get run on dirt what ever the weather, or do I build a track with the 90% of racers in mind, that want 'FUN' cost effective racing, No matter the weather! I know which one I would pick! But that's just my opinion.

I'd 100% disagree with the "I need a rear motor to run 2wd there" thinking. When I went to the RC-Area meeting I won it with an X6, and next time I go I'll only be taking the Centro with me for 2wd.

The only thing that people might need to change is the motors they're running, a 10.5 will be more than enough for most people in 2wd at SV - it will have more than enough grunt to clear the jumps and will be a lot easier to get the power you actually have to the ground. One of the main things I've noticed whenever I've run in America is how sensible the club level drivers are in general about motors, they tend to only bolt in what they can handle - whereas over here it seems to be 5/6.5 in 4wd and 6/7.5 in 2wd no matter what the track/driver skill level.

Covering the track in astro would completely defeat the point and make it 'just another track', also the myth people seem to believe about 1-2 run tyres on dirt totally doesn't apply on either SV or RHR-D surfaces. The M4's I ran at SV had 2 RHR-D meeting's worth of running on them and there's still plenty of life left in them now! With the style of dirt tyre used at SV you can pretty much run them down to bald if there's no dust on the line, unlike minispikes on astro which these days are way slower after just one run because the edge has worn off the spike.

I have raced my SV2 at storm valey and found no problems at all. I am not a sponcered driver but I am an old school racer from the 80's when you had one type of car and you set it up for the surface you are racing on.

The only thing in my opinion that needs looking at is the jump infront of the rostrum. It is to agressive for 1/10 scale cars.

I am a little disapointed Storm valey are not running a regionals 2wd as well as the 4wd.

Reall racers will race on anything and be able to set the car up to what ever surface it is.

(i guess im not a real racer then lol)

I came for a practice once mid week and then for round 2? of the winter champs.
4wd I must state now so can't comment on how much of a struggle it is for 2wd although it certainly had more grip than Batley indoor or bury indoor with their polished wood floors!
The track itself I liked, I thought grip levels were pretty good and I only had m3's on! If I were to change anything it would be the jump nearest the rostrum, but only slightly, to allow the fastest drivers a chance to jump the whole feature in one.
Regarding tyres,
The m3's I used for both days I will happily use again, tread wear is very minimal, for the amount of laps I did at storm I would have used 2 sets of schuey yellows on astro.


Round 2? or whichever round it was, was the day the power went off and we were stood around for over an hour, I didn't wait to see if the meeting resumed or not, I'd had enough by then.
There was no follow up from storm on this, I would have liked to see the owner offer a free practice day or something to compensate for the fact we paid £15 for 2 heats of racing! Maybe that would have tempted me back sooner. Leaving the track feeling hard done by is never gonna make you want to return quickly.

That is the main reason I haven't returned, I can go race at most other places for £5/£7/£10 and get a full days racing, at storm I paid £15 for 2 heats.
Fixing the electric issue to include availability of charging would also be a good step forwards as would increasing the size of the pits as we ended up at the top of the carpark pitting out of the boot of the car on a wet windy winters day, which lets face it you just don't expect when your racing "indoors"

the number of dirt tracks will never increase if existing dirt tracks are covered in astro.

On a tyre wear note, you could easily get through a set at Kidderminster track, yet that track remains one of the UK's best.

If SV wasn't 160mile round trip I'd more than likely race regularly if there was a club night in the week. (Can't do weekends right now)

The ambiance just wasn't right whenever I've been to a stoke nitro meet drive for an hour or more to be be greeted by a sour attitude I'd love to race at sv only nobody wants to come with and asking for money on a free race day whatever the circumstances only makes people think the head honchos a cock

Tim you forgot to mention the truth about you being told regards smoking the drugs !!!

Can't see why people think there is a tyre wear issue at SV. I imagine I could get a set of holeshots to last a lot longer at SV than a set of minispikes on a astro track.

Converting the track to astro wouldn't work in my opinion, except perhaps when its raining. Why would I want to travel all the way to SV when there are astro tracks a lot nearer to me.

The 1/10 and 1/8 running together is probably an issue and is possibly one reason 1/10 is low on attendance. Maybe suggest running 1/10 Saturday and 1/8 Sunday and alternating them each week, so those that can only do one day or other will be able to attend on a fortnightly basis.

I like the idea of been able to race on dirt, but been a 2hr trip has made it more difficult to attend on a regular basis than I'd like to.