Finals ..... FTD .v. Qualifying points
 

Currently Finals are sorted based on points scored during Qualifying heats ( rather than the normal FTD system ) the theory being that qualifying is smoothed out and rewards consistency rather than say 3 poor rounds but one very quick one i.e. FTD .....
Any pros /cons , preferences..?
Personally, I prefer the FTD system, but there is some merit in the current system.......not sure quite why it was adopted though..

Yes I much prefer the FTD or best 2/4 rather than round by round.
One bad run or unfair takeout (of which there are many in lower heats) and you an kiss a decent qualifying final position goodbye.

I agree, but it doesn't only take a poor round to make a difference. I am usually fairly consistent (albeit rather slow....! ) but generally get quicker as rounds progress.... However I have taken particular interest over the past two weeks, and on both occasions, would have ended up in a higher final based on FTD..!

The biggest single influence on the FTD vs RBR is that tracks change, even indoors.
Last time out the practice and R1 were slippery, then the grip increasingly picked up right until the end.
A couple of meetings earlier saw a slippery practice, then a higher grip level which noticeably dropped away in R4 and finals.
If I have a perfect run in R1 on a slippy track, then beat my best time in R3 despite several mistakes, is that a fair way??
If you were taken out by back markers or a car failure when the track was at its peak, should that affect your final position?
In my opinion that is why FTD is no longer the norm and RBR is the better all round fair solution. ;)

Thanks John....interesting concept..... If RBR is best, I wonder why most clubs , Regionals and Nationals are run on FTD ...?
Just trying to get some debate going...:)

I'm not sure they are run on FTD anymore. Can't remember the last time i raced at a meeting with FTD instead of RBR.

Every single Regional and National I have ever attended (Not just 10th scale) in the last 10 years has run RBR, with the exception of one meeting at Bury Metro years ago which ran FTD on a hot sunny day when the forecast was for the weather to remain constant.
Another bonus of RBR is the track can be changed if for example a crater or puddle develops or there is a spillage or even a safety issue.

Oh, and debate is no bad thing if approached sensibly ;)

Ooer...apologies, I am obviously seriously out of date...:blush:
However, the BRCA rules state that qualifying can be RBR or FTD at the Race Directors discretion..!
I bet I am not the only one who finds RBR confusing whereas FTD is obvious..
To help myself ,and others understand RBR ...here is an extract from the BRCA

The Round by Round qualifying method awards points for each competitor’s position in each qualifying round individually. Highest qualifying position in each Round will score zero (0) points, second place will score two (2) points, third place three (3) points and so on. (Regional events can amend this points system subject to software compatibility). Weather/external circumstances may prevent all scheduled qualifying rounds being completed, therefore points from each driver’s best qualifying rounds are added together to determine a final qualifying position as follows :-

This suggests that if ,say, there are 40 drivers at a meeting, the fastest driver each round scores 0 points and the slowest driver scores 40 points..?
That I understand...:)
However I am fairly sure that we are not doing that, so must be applying the "amendment subject to software compatibility" .....that's what I don't understand...!
Probably I am wrong again...:cry:

I think the only difference is that at most meetings you get 1 rather than 0.

I remembered the last meeting... Pretty much all the TC racing i did. It was very rare to run RBR unless it rained.

Both have their place but with offroad RBR is much better suited, especially outdoors.

Definitely prefer rbr. Could have a good day all day in wet then break the car in a dry last round. Most people can then out qualify you even if you were quicker all day.

Definitely prefer rbr. Could have a good day all day in wet then break the car in a dry last round. Most people can then out qualify you even if you were quicker all day.

If you had a bad last round, you would be out qualified under either system as you would get few if any points under RBR for that last round..!!

I remember the days when RBR was a new thing and only ONE round counted which I really liked. I like the FTD system too because it is not as demanding of consistency. So one round to count RBR is the happy medium for me. It worked fine. There would obviously be a lot of drivers on the same scores at the end of qualifying and so in that event your relative position to them went on your best backup round score. I remember I was at a national where my best round finish was a 9th. There was two other drivers who had 9s as their best but my backup round of about 12th or something was just good enough to keep me in the B final. My first ever national B. It kills both birds at once for me. You can guarantees good qualifying result in the first round and your not dead even if you have had a bad day all day and need a banzai last run.. I miss those days...

Danny you say that, but with your consistency and recent reliability issues you would most certainly be qualifying higher under FTD. You tend to get one or two fast times in a meeting and the others are slower, either due to problems, takeouts or your own mistakes. At any of the bigger meetings, if they were FTD you would certainly be higher up the grid come finals. Under RBR your bad runs bring you down.
At a club we race at that does run FTD, you are consistently TQ, but you wouldn't be if it were under RBR.

Just sayin' ;-)

Er hang on which is it? in the top post you said this:
I do personally prefer FTD as ultimately I'd get further up the finals grid with one faster run, but I enjoy racing with whatever the club runs. If it was a problem I wouldn't come. The biggest issues to qualifying performance currently indoors is the moving track, bad marshalling, and take-outs.

The bit about wet and dry was supposed to be quoting Danny..!

For all the reasons you said I have and do always prefer FTD....
it would be very unlucky to have 4 bad rounds, but quite possible to have 2 or 3 for various reasons, setup ,tyres, accident etc. but one good clear run could still give a good final position... I think most drivers would prefer that one good run , their maximum potential, to count for final position.
Seems though I may be wrong...:confused:

Even in RBR, your FTD makes a difference.
Take for example last week when I gave the 4wd a rare run. I had a 4th and 2 5th's in round, pretty respectable I thought. Imagine my surprise to be if I remember correctly 3rd in the B final :bored:
Several drivers were tied on 9 points, and despite the fact I could turn out several decent runs, ultimately my fastest time was the slowest, so I was placed at the bottom of those on the same points....

ftd you only have to have 1 good run out of 4
rbr you still only need 2 good runs out of 4

its hardly a massive difference but does help equalise the inconsistencies of a days racing, track moving weather changes surface changes etc.
it is ultimately the fairest way to score a meeting.
it teaches us to race conservatively rewarding consistency, which in turn teaches us to drive faster without crashing. all ftd encourages is balls out runs where if you crash it doesn't matter. as you can try again next run, but this also encourages people trying to drive faster than their skill, this can lead to them crashing and either wrecking the track or binning someone else off the track.

these are the reasons the brca off road section and the oople series use rbr

But the wet round scores would count so in this situation Danny is right as its your best 2 from 4 in RBR and if its dry in the last round you have only one chance with FTD.

Therein lies my confusion.....:lol:
Were there two heats of 4wd..say 16 /17 drivers...? If I understand the system (quoted above) points should be awarded per class (not heat)... Therefore each round points should have been 0...16 ......! So for best two rounds 0....32 points
The odds of several drivers tying on 9 points are very extreme...... 4 +5 yourself
0+9. 1+8..2+7. 3+6 so a maximum of 5 on the same 9 points Possible but highly unlikely..
That is why I'm sure the system is not quite right as it stands.... No criticism of anybody intended here I just feel something is wrong with the program..

Not a maximum of five. Let's say oscar got his 4 and 5 in rounds 1 and 2 of qualifying and then didn't score higher in the last two rounds of qualifying, I could get a 4 and 5 in rounds 3 and 4 of qualifying. That could also happen with the other score combinations you posted which ten people could have the same points.

When I explain round by round qualifying I always tell people to think that each round of qualifying is a separate race meeting. So it would be a four meeting championship with your best two rounds of the championship to count. Final standings in the championship is where you qualify in the finals. Usually people understand that.

Quote". Not a maximum of five. Let's say oscar got his 4 and 5 in rounds 1 and 2 of qualifying and then didn't score higher in the last two rounds of qualifying, I could get a 4 and 5 in rounds 3 and 4 of qualifying. That could also happen with the other score combinations you posted which ten people could have the same points. "

I know I am being pedantic but.... If , as you point out, 10 drivers could end up with the same points (you were right about that, my error..!) then their final position is decided by ..... FTD.... :lol:

With what John has raised here hits one of the nails on the head :)

With changing track conditions aside, another major plus is that when it comes to the final qualifying positions it seeds the drivers who have driven quickly AND consistently throughout the day.

This is the extract from BRCA. rules..again... Quote....The Round by Round qualifying method awards points for each competitor’s position in each qualifying round individually. Highest qualifying position in each Round will score zero (0) points, second place will score two (2) points, third place three (3) points and so on. (Regional events can amend this points system subject to software compatibility). Weather/external circumstances may prevent all scheduled qualifying rounds being completed, therefore points from each driver’s best qualifying rounds are added together to determine a final qualifying position as follows :-..end Quote...

I understand this, as at the end of a Round, drivers are awarded points based on their time.. ie fastest driver gets 0 points slowest driver..IN THE ROUND.....NOT HEAT...gets ( if say 35 drivers. ) 34 points..,! Etc. etc..
Our system seems to allocate points PER HEAT... so that the third driver in Heat A gets 3 points, and the third driver in Heat B also gets 3 points..whereas he/she should get say 11 points if 8 drivers per Heat..
That was my point about something wrong in the computer program...

I do understand the merits of RBR if it works as per the BRCA... ;)

Not necessarily. In the occasion of a tie, the time taken into account comes from your best scoring round. So lets say both peoples highest round score is a 4, driver A gets 4th in the round on a slightly damp track in round 1 and scores 13 laps, Driver B comes 5th. Driver B gets a 4th in round 2 on a slightly drier track goes quicker again on 13 laps. Driver A comes 5th in round 2. Neither drivers do very well in round 3.

Now lets say that round 4 of qualifying the sun has come out and the track is now the perfect conditions, Driver A goes out has a stormer and does 16 laps, driver B breaks it and doesn't improve. Unfortunatley for driver 1 everybody else has had a good round as well and so he has to settle for 8th in the round.

Driver B would win the tie break because of his slightly faster time on his highest scoring round. But if it was based on FTD then Driver A would have easily out qualified driver B.

Also remember that A higher round score will be taken into account before a tied point score. So if driver A scored a 1 and a 4 and driver B scored a 2 and a 3 then although they are both tied on points, driver A would out qualify driver B because of his 1 score over driver B's highest 2 score.

I have always loved RBR ever since it came in. I have never had massive amounts of raw pace and consistency has always been key for me to do well so RBR suits me better.

With FTD I always hated the last round dash. The disappointment of being knocked out of the A by that person who got lucky in the last round despite the fact you had out qualified them all day until that point. The breaking your car in the first round only for it to lightly drizzle in the last three rounds of qualifying ruining any chance of progressing up the qualifying standings.

RBR rules!
:D

Cripes ...! Got a headache now....must go and have a lie down..:confused:
You have just given the best reason for FTD....simple to understand for a very simple minded person (me)....
RBR must have been designed by a committee....:lol:

I'm afraid your understanding is incorrect, points are definitely allocated by round on our system.
The only thing I might add in case it is the source of confusion, is that each class has its own separate points score. So at Batley that would be 2wd, 4wd and U13
Feel free to grab me at the next meeting if anything is still confusing :)

Thanks John..... I would like to do that.....:thumbsup:
Perhaps scrutinising the print outs will enlighten me..! Cheers...

Well Alan you seem to have alot of luck in the round by round qualifying...

Still prefer the simplicity of FTD.... ! :)
However, finals are not so good when certain people run into and over a careful driver....no names mentioned Daniel and Sammy ....!! :thumbdown: