why hi viz?
 

I've been racing for a number of years now. I'm also quite aware of the dangers that life can throw at you.

So here's the thing, it might have some you mollycoddled types up in arms that I'm even asking so be warned.

Why is there an increasing number of places at a track where you need to wear a hi viz vest?

Lets look at it like this, a hi viz vest is usually used by a person in a hazardous place where other people may not know that they are there etc etc. So, with that in mind, when at an RC track, we KNOW there are marshals, we KNOW there are people in the pitlane.

As for marshals, are they not big enough to see? everyone gets a clout on the foot now and again, but if you need a visual aid to tell you there is a 5ft+ mound of moving mammal next to the track, maybe you shouldn't be driving a fast moving 18" or less object from a distance away...just saying.

As for pit "bitches", why? They are stood usually away from the action, behind a large wooden ramp, beneath you at most times, you know they are there, the marshals know they are there, as does the race director, and any spectating public. Are they afraid they will not be seen? Pretty damn hard considering how busy pitlanes can get, how can you not "see" someone there.

I suspect it's just H&S gone mad, and politics, and bureaucracy. Most of you who know me know I don't buy into such tripe, as I like to think for myself (I can feel a Denis Leary rant coming on :lol: )

Anyway, answers on a postcard please, or, for convenience, just reply to the post.

Because we're bat shit crazy for health and safety in the UK :thumbdown:

when clubs think one size fits all from kids to big lads:p

It's not health and safety gone mad, it's health and safety badly applied.
The risk assessment for a marshall (in the line of fire) should be completely different to that of pit crew. But it's easier to lump them all in as one category and say "they need hi viz"

TBH there are bigger issues around badly fitting hi viz than there are around being trackside. (You seen how fast a mini pin will grip, rip and snag on one of those airtex hi viz tops?) but hi viz is one of the first things a badly trained HSE bod will ask about. They are unlikely to actually read the risk assessment, or understand it.

Not to mention that the drivers are looking at the floor, not 1-2m above it. We really need hi viz trousers to be safe.

I think you will find this has been raised by the amount of accidents that has ocured over the last few years .Yes I KNOW what you are going to say so what are the HI VIZ VESTS going to prove well in my opinion bugger all but at least the clubs are insured and covered if they are running to the rules of BRCA;

Marshalling HI VIS VESTS i can understand as this has been out for many years but pit bitches well that is another story tbh with you as some of the pit bitches do not even have a valid BRCA Licence so insurance would be voided anyway if they got hurt but it is like all things i persume same shit different day :p :thumbsup:

At BRCA events you need to know whether a marshal has been relieved or not (ooh err) as a penalty ensues if not, so it helps identify that. Also only appointed marshals are allowed to rescue/interfere with cars at BRCA/EFRA events so helps distinguish that too. Plus if standing out bby using a bright colour more reduces your or some youngsters chance of getting hit by even a small amount is the chore of taking 30 seconds to put a hi-vis on really that much of an issue? Its just duty of care to do what you can to look after your racers.
I don't know about the pit man thing.. Seems sensible to only allow relevant personnel on the track though, and if you've ever run a race meeting then being able to identify marshals, pit people very in the 2 minutes between races quickly is a lot easier when you just have to look for a hi-vis.

It is so the Race Director can determin who is marshalling and who isn't.

I agree with you on pit crew. I disagree on marshals.

Where marshals are concerned, while you know they are about on the track, it is easier to identify and locate a marshall and take avoiding action if needs be when a marshal is wearing a vest and in the line of fire. Now you might say "but I shouldn't have to...." or "the marshal should be paying attention" or something similar but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and if the risk of injury are lessened slightly by something as simple as wearing a high-viz vest then so be it. Its not exactly a hardship wearing one.

A chap I know has a massive lump on his shin from getting hit at the IBR 1/8th meeting at Padova. The IBR doesn't really enforce any message to marshalls other than "don't get hit" and no vests are supplied. Obviously we can't know if he'd had got hit had he been wearing one anyway but I can't help but think its less likely. Getting a Rallycross car in the head at any speed really doesn't bear thinking about.

Just wear the vest... :rolleyes:

I was not allowed to photo from many points that were safe at 8th nationals - but the marshalls behind a bit of chicken wire - sometimes there were marshall points there is NO WAY I would want to sit at. Getting hit is one thing - taking a 3.5kg missile to the face is surely no fun.

People get hit because people get it wrong - I almost got decapitated at neo stood at my marshall point. Just got my arm up in time to take the force. Doesn't matter if I was lit up like a xmas tree if someone drives like a nob.
At the neo - I never saw anyone slowing down when I was marshalling in THE PIT OF DEATH.

Breath testing 2013 - helmets 2014? - Mandatory ejaculation before racing 2015? Everyone tokes on a joint during each warmup 2016?

I would vote for this :)

As James said, it is a very simple way for the Race Director to identify Marshall's as opposed to those not allowed trackside.. Good idea..! :thumbsup:

Haha...nice work Jimmy!

As James has already posted...the high viz thing is more about race control being able to see there are marshalls in place, and not about racers being able to see them, or them providing any extra safety protection.

I'm not convinced it's that big a deal though...they don't do any harm to anything or anyone, and they are hardly an inconvenience. so what's the problem if the race organisers that enforce them find them useful for something? Why worry about it?

BIG vests on little people is probably more of a hazard though!!! Wouldn't be surprised to see that causes a trip or fall in extreme cases!

And if your a big chap with a little vest, you could have some hulk rippage going on!! :thumbsup:

Ah, there we go. A sensible non ranting answer to my question, Cheers.:thumbsup:

As opposed to....

Whoa there nelly.

Thank you for all your answers. The winner is DCM though.



...but I bet all drivers on the rostrum are wearing them by 2017 and no one questions why.

:lol:

Taken out by DCM...not for the first time either :woot:

Love you Steve :wub

its mainly brca and insurance.
its deemed that anyone within the track perimeter is at risk. marshals pit crew etc
if some one gets hit and tries to make a claim the club has to prove they did everything possible to protect that person. How ever, as soon as you leave your marshall point you are on your own, and have no insurance cover, as you have been deemed to decide its safe to run across the track.

it is mainly for h and s gone mad, though it does also help id marshals missing

jim spencer is the man for the officials answer!

Ive been all over one of these for a long time now jimbob

And why has H&S gone mad? Because we have gone mad! At the slightest hint of anything happening to anyone, they sue. Sod Margaret bloody Thatcher and her 'no win no fee' idea, it's turned us all into the sort of people who want to be victims, and not to take responsibility.

If you got hit by a an RC car and someone said they could get you a few grand from someone else for nothing, would you say no? History says you wouldn't. So, the lawyer goes to court and points out to the judge that things that could have been done have not been done and before you can "payout" you are staring a mortgage in the face to pay the claimant.

If it cost the right amount of money to sue where there has been negligence or wilful recklessness then people would go after those who deliberately put us in the way of harm. As it is that change of Law means anyone can set up as a claims advisor and act on your behalf - it costs you nothing to get tax-free money. Surprise, surprise - people sue for anything because they have no skin in the game and it costs them nothing.

So, when the court says that not being easily visible is a contributory cause to the 'accident' then what happens? Everyone ends up in a hi-vis. Don't rail against the nanny state and the H&S madness because we, the general public, caused it.

On a more practical note, they do make it easier to see someone on the track out of the corner of your eye when they contrast against the background. As for the 'counting the marshals' bit - sorry, don't buy it. Before the hi-viz craze Race Directors counted bodies and marshal positions were marked. If there were nine in the last heat and you could only count eight people at the marked positions you were one missing!

When doing risk assessments against court decisions in previous cases, being 'invisible' comes out as a contributory cause of accidents. Result? - we get people to wear hi-viz jackets. Suck it up. The reverse of acting on court decisions is that if you don't you will not have a claim, however wilful or negligent the 'offender'. Don't wear a hi-viz and you have no leg to stand on making a claim if you are injured. And that is the real harm of all this - make one mistake in following the requirements and people will, one day, get away with murder.

Hi All

Been pointed at this thread and asked to comment.

But realistically you've got it covered - "It's the world we live in"
Fix that and you've achieved something :D

However I'll have a go

Before you jump up and down on the Association, please do this:-
Read the General Rules - you would be surprised, judging by the above, what's not actually there.

Secondly - think what a 'Race Track' is to the average bloke in the street, i.e. the bloke YOU might have to convince that YOU did everything possible to avoid that accident when it goes pear shaped - who's never seen model car racing, but has seen Brands Hatch on the telly..

Sometimes we are required to go slightly OTT (For Our Sport) to make sure that Mr Averages expectations are covered (which is essentially what the UK legal system is based around) you may or may not like that - but
"It's the world we live in"
And we as the BRCA can't fix that..

So DO what your race director has deemed necessary, or simply offer to do his job for him, once you're doing it though be prepared for loads of flak of your mates as you'll probably come to the same conclusion on safety as he did ;)

Last bit - if you think it's not safe you MUST say so to race control - that IS in the rules.

:confused:Would i not be right in saying that we have BRCA for insurance reasons? If so why are we not insured when doing marshalling duties,I.E running out into the track and retrieveing someones rolled car, for what i understand if a marshall gets hit by a car he/she will not be covered, if this is correct doesn't it make a mockery of our £17 a year membership?

I think I am right in saying that you are covered whilst at your marshalling point, it is then your decision and judgement to run out on the track at a safe time.

Taken from 2013 BRCA Handbook;


Marshalling
At all the above meetings (apart from the fun user of course)
Marshalling is an accepted part of our sport, we race and then we marshal is the built in ethos,
though of course ability and age are sometimes taken into consideration.
24


It is also accepted that racing tracks, of all sizes, are dangerous places to be, however
somebody will determine a safe place to marshal from (it may be self determined at a club or
by an official at a National – it doesn’t matter) while you are at your marshal post/point the
insurance cover applies. But when YOU decide to leave that post and retrieve a car then do be
aware that YOU have made that decision – it’s then your responsibility to keep yourself safe.
You cannot blame and therefore claim off yourself, when you get it wrong.
If you read nothing else in the Handbook, read the General Rules (pages 14/15 2009 editio

Exactly as Stuart says.

You shouldn't be running out in to on coming traffic anyway as you are likely to ruin somebody else's race let alone get injured yourself.

Totally agree with the above, marshalling should be done safley, but what happens when you get hit by a flying car that has nothing to do with the original crash, how do we stand then? It can become a big grey area in my understanding?

If you are hit at your marshal point then you are covered, if on the track you are not.

Well i would say if you are on your valid marshalling point you could put a claim in but for example if your went out marshalling when you YOURSELF deemed it was safe and another car has a run away and breaks your leg i would say tough shit as you were not on your marshaling point thats how it seems to me when you are covered but i could be totally wrong

No gray area if your at your marshal point and get hit by a stray car, your covered,if YOU have left your Marshall point and get hit by a stray car you are not covered.
It states that clearly in the manual and is quoted above.

If you want to be covered for any situation, the YOU need to take out your own personal insurance. BRCA offered to do this one year but it was around £30 per member with no option to opt out. It failed to be passed. So we have what we have now.

Just a thought then, maybe everyone should do their duty, but when a car crashes no one goes to recover it!!! I think it makes a farce out of your membership, we get told we need it too race, but when we marshall the poor buggers arnt covered for doing their job!!!!!:thumbdown:

Thats only my opinion, i will carry on marshalling because we have too do it, but god what a risk. I always thought we were covered no matter what.:confused:

The main reason you have cover Via brca is to protect you against claims. it is not personal protection cover

This.

It is Public Liability Insurance - NOT personal accident.

It is designed to cover you as an individual, either as a driver of an RC car or as an organiser (as we nearly all race at clubs, we're nearly all 'organisers' at some point) from claims made against you.

If somebody hits you, while spectating for example, you don't claim off 'your' cover, you would effectivly be claiming against the driver &/or the organiser as either the former did something stupid or the latter didn't make the safety fence good enough.

Without PL cover in place nobody in their right mind would organise the race meetings (be it a small club or anything larger) as the costs involved if anything goes pear shaped are horrific.

BTW most actions arn't brought by individuals, they tend to arrise from employers insurance companies - as they former have insured against long term sick pay claims.. can all get very messy and very complicated.


Got one action going on currently, heaven knows how much paperwork it's generated so far..


I've dealt with one action where the defendant (A club committee) didn't have PL cover in place (they wern't affiliated, individual members or sourced it elsewhere) and I don't want to see it again as the results weren't pretty.
So if you race / use RC cars then you need PL cover from somewhere.
If for whatever reason you don't want to be a BRCA member then please make sure you get it from somewhere else.

Jim, I do believe that someone above had a valid concern. If they have ensured that moving from their marshal point is safe, and in the process, a car has lost control from another part of the track and hit them, where do they lie, claim wise?

answer is in the handbook

But when YOU decide to leave that post and retrieve a car then do be
aware that YOU have made that decision – it’s then your responsibility to keep yourself safe.
You cannot blame and therefore claim off yourself, when you get it wrong.

I think it should be in the rules that if its a windy day, you dont have to wear them....because those little buggers are a shit to put on in the wind!!!:p


....wind and rain?...thats a whole new ball game!!:woot:

Mark, hence the grey area. If you look, check and assess that it is safe (and it really is), and you leave your marshal point to retrieve a car, then at that point an incident happens elsewhere and you get hurt. You have served due dilligence to ensure your safety, but factors beyond your control happens. Like going to pull out of a junction on a blind corner, you check as far as you can see, jump on the brakes as a car comes round the corner and the car behind you rear ends you.

We can discuss this until the cows come home but basically why bother ???

If you move of your marshall point and you get hit by a car.,slip,or fall you are not covered so pretty simple;

So where are we insured for pit lane rostrum???

I can fully understand people asking why, but then why not, it doesnt hurt you, doesnt cost you anything, and it MIGHT mean that you dont get hit by a car while on track?? more chance of being seen by a driver with it than without it

I know that the rules are you go when its safe, but lets be honest, we all try and recover any cars asap, just how you would like to be marshalled, sometimes that ends in doing the dance of a thousand fairies at the end of the sraight as cars hurtle through, round and under you.

I was at a 1/5th meeting years back, got smashed in the shin by 11kg+ of rc lorry, that made a right mess, flesh bone blood etc, put me out of work for a while, my car with all the RC gear in it was a long way from home.

I was in the pitlane wearing Hi viz jacket.

I have 2 accidents in the last few years 1 was out of hours from the day of racing even though it was a accident that occured to do with a receiver pack,2nd accident serious soft tissue injury,ligement damage and in plaster for 4 months so that was also a very long haul.2nd accident wearing a high viz vest at the time

No grey area, YOU moved from YOUR designated safe area, YOU put yourself in the situation.