LIPO pouch - best available
 

What's best available?

After seeing a racer's injuries today, certainly reminds me how dangerous they are.

I have a lipo pouch but it needs replacing

The new square shaped ORION ones are good!

To tell you the truth, all makes in the Uk do the same thing so you be fine with any large one,

Named or no named still do the same

you could double up pouches

Is there any official testing that is done to certify that brand X's lipo pouch/case is capable of containing a lipo fire?

I have not seen any official tests. I was sorry to hear and see what happened to Ed Kerry the night before the Rudebits GP where he has very bad burns on both hands as he tried to deal with a Lipo in a sack fire. Hope you get better soon Ed.

As we are on the subject of Lipos, do people store them in any sort of special container in their house when not using them? Currently I stick the Lipo into 'store' mode and pop it into the Lipo sack, but not sure whether I need something a little sturdier to keep them in.

At home I keep all my batteries in an ammo box :lol: The advantages:
1. It costs next to nothing - I got a nice one for 3 euros (2.5GBP).
2. It will protect the batteries from puncture, excessive pressure or damage to the wiring.
3. It's airtight, so if a fire does start at least it's cut off from a good supply of oxygen (though a Lithium fire may also require heat absorption to extinguish it properly).
4. It's watertight, so it's protected from changes in humidity or water leakage/spillage.
5. An ammo box looks so much cooler than a LiPo sack! :p

The only disadvantage I found is that I can't find one that has a compact size for storing 3-5 batteries - so I still have to put my batteries in a LiPo sack when I go to meetings.

Ammo box seems a good idea but my only concern would be having all my lipos in the one place. If one decides to go up, wouldn't it set the whole lot off in the one box? So I suppose I need multiple boxes for added safety?

To a degree: I currently store over 30000mAh in my Battery/Ammo Box, and I don't feel comfortable with it because there are a few iffy packs in there that need to be disposed of.

That said, if you know none of your packs have a questionable history I see no problem. To be fair, the majority of the packs that do catch fire are kept in use in spite of signs that they shouldn't (charging and discharging beyond the assigned limits, permanently swollen cells, temperature issues, damaged/split cases, wear/age, etc).

Many consumer products use Lithium-based batteries these days (amongst which LiPo) and there are not many horror stories of those products spontaneously combusting because they protect the battery from being put in those situations in the first place. RC Cars don't have as many (or sometimes any) of these safety devices, and when racing we're already using the battery technology to it's limit. In other words, it's wise to monitor the batteries' condition and performance, and any signs of problems with a battery should be taken seriously.

One important note by the way on the Ammo Box: I have put some insulation on the bottom to make sure the batteries or connectors don't touch metal. I know it's painted, but I don't want to run the risk that the box itself becomes the cause of a LiPo fire :lol:

+1 on the ammo box plus it makes a good step gettin in an out a the van charge in a bag an store in the box I've seen charger wires melt a few times

I use mr33 one from tonisport , great bit of kit but I hope I never have need for its purpose

I think this is something the BRCA should be looking at I feel. The mAh of Lipo's are getting bigger and bigger meaning we are charging at higher and higher amps. Some kind of testing should be done on these so called "safe" charging/storage bags. I doubt that any of the current sacks would be much use in the event of a fire.

at least one section recommend the pouches over the box type!

I read that ed tried to get the pouch outside.

what should happen is a large bucket of sand (kiln dried preferably) should be available and it should ALL be dumped on the bag/fire etc and LEFT, one the fire is out then the pouch should be removed.
I witnessed this in operation at a 12th national and its is very effective, quick reactions and knowing what to do, resulted in very little damage.

ed was lucky as he was basically carrying a bomb. if the lipo is not fully in the pouch and the bag fully sealed there is no point in using a pouch, the first thing to fail is the Velcro if any heat gets directly onto it, sealed correctly the bag will vent as its designed to retaining the fire.

speedy recovery Ed!!

We have had two LiPo fires at our Nationals. As Safety Officer I have investigated both... as well as being next to both when they went up! Here is some advice from those experiences.

Check your charger. There are some on the market that default to the NiMh setting if they are shut off through loss of mains or battery power. Set up your charger charging a LiPo. Disconnect the main power supply. Disconnect the LiPo and reconnect the main power supply. See what settings come up on the charger. If it is NiMh then stick a ruddy great big label on the front of the charger that says "CHECK SETTINGS" so you don't forget every time you switch on.

LiPo containers. Make sure it is one that is woven from Kevlar. Wherever possible, check to see if the stitching is Kevlar too - most aren't. In the first fire the LiPos were in a 'box' and the fire came straight out between the gaps, melted the Velcro and the cotton stitching and the box sprung open. Cue hot debris spewing everywhere across the pit tables. All the box types I investigated were like this, so my recommendation is not to use a box-type LiPo sack at all.

The problem with boxes is the direct access the fire has to the stitching and the Velcro. The fire burns the stitching and Velcro away and the box flaps fall open.

In the second fire, the LiPo was just tucked into the pouch near the top and the Velcro was not fully closed. Again the fire melted the Velcro (not difficult, it is plastic!), the flap popped open and the fire chucked its hot debris across the pit table setting fire to a body shell. In this case the fire was directed off the flap and so at least went only in one direction.

Pouches don't seem to suffer from the stitching being burnt. On most the stitching 'clamps' the Kevlar pieces to each other closing off the stitching to the fire. In the second case there was no damage to the stitching.

When using a pouch, use short (preferably flush) connectors and push the LiPo as far to the bottom of the pouch as possible. Close the flap so that the Velcro is fully home and the gap at the top is the minimum you can get it. That way if the fire starts, the route for the hot debris is as tiny as possible, and it is prevented wherever possible from getting to the Velcro and melting it leading to the flap coming open.

As for dealing with a LiPo fire, sand is the best weapon by a large margin. Do not us water - the heat will liberate oxygen from the water making things worse - and do not use either foam or water extinguishers for the same reason.

Use dry sand, preferably kiln-dried sand, in a large metal bucket. Not wet sand, that water problem again. When alerted to a fire, dump enough sand onto the fire to smother it. Don't pay any attention at all to people's kit, the table or the pouch, just dump sand onto the pouch until the hot debris stops coming out. It takes quite a bit of sand to do that!

Once the fire is out (listen, it can be heard) leave it for 10 or 15 minutes. Disconnect the LiPo by unplugging the wires from the charger or cutting them. Then put all the sand, the LiPo and the pouch back into the bucket and take it outside. We left them for a couple of hours after which they were cool and we could dig out the charred remains and put them in the bin.

Never pick up a LiPo or its sack whilst it is ablaze, and not for at least 10 to 15 minutes afterwards. If the fire is in a car on a tarmac track, leave it to burn out or dump sand on it. If it is indoors, get sand on it ASAP and plenty of it. People always come first - get away from the fire. They are not replaceable whereas kit is always replaceable.

Home storage - in a pouch. As said above, providing they are good quality batteries and they are not fully charged accidents are not a common occurrence. The ammo box is also a good idea.

I have asked the Electric Board to discuss the issue of the Velcro and the stitching with the manufacturers and am awaiting a reply. At least three buckets of sand (two in the pit area and one near the rostrum for the track) are mandatory for 12th Nationals. Foam and water extinguishers are also required in case any of the solvents or cleaners we all use cause a fire. Smoking is not allowed in the pit area!

In summary - use a pouch not a box. Put the LiPo as far to the bottom of the pouch as possible and make sure the flap is closed fully down with a minimum gap for fire to access the Velcro. If anything happens get clear and dump sand on the fire until the hot debris no longer comes out. Once out, leave for 10 to 15 minutes, then carefully put all the sand and the LiPo/sack into the bucket and cover with more sand. Leave for a couple of hours before removing the charred remains, or dump the whole bucket of sand with the bits into a metal bin for collection.

I am very sorry to hear someone got hurt and wish them a speedy recovery. If you have any questions, please ask here.

Peter Winton
Safety Officer - BRCA 12th Section

I keep mine in golden syrup tins when not in use.

cheap, easily available and her indoors like's eating the contents.

Winner all round

:p

Good call. Metal container, proper lid that can't come off and plenty to enjoy to get the goods!! :thumbsup:

i was thinking one off those fire safes for home storage

This thread has made me buy an ammo box.

Thanks for all the good advice

Real sorry to hear of a fellow racers injuries and wish him a speedy recovery, i'm sure he was doing his best in panic to save others and kit around him as a lot of us would in that split second by removing the blaze.

How many clubs have sand buckets available or even extinguishers? especially indoor ones based in school halls and gyms etc?

It's a rare problem, seen one flare up in a car in last 4 years (Durango 4WD rear driveshaft pin puncturing case) but still a nasty potential so we all need to think a bit smarter and take care, especially when we all cram indoors pitting in bunches at busy winter meetings.

Just ordered a 50 Cal ammo box for home storage, should squeeze a few saddle packs in fine looking at dimensions.

Will be making up sand bags using dry sand and plastic freezer sacks or something similar to line it with under around and on top of lipos just for home storage.

Been semi retired for while but it does cross my mind having a few packs sat in separate lipo sacks in the house is not enough to prevent serious damage and expense or worse.

Can live with smoke mess and couple of hundred £'s of lipos going up and needing replacing but not with the potential worst... especially when we don't spend 24hrs a day guarding them when not in use.

Lipo sacks need homologating, controlled destruction testing, possibly using the lipo packs sent by distributors for homologation?

one school hall fire will wipe out cheap BRCA insurance for all of us!

These are on ebay 25cmx18cmx9cm

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Ex...item19c6eb6409

Their was a good thread on rc-tech about this a while back, alot of US racers are using ammo boxes or money tins to house their lipo during charging.

Obviously much safer than a pouch but as most clubs adhere to the BRCA guidelines stating pouches must be used that kind knocks the metal box idea on the head?

I think some of the posts are thinking about safe storage in their homes as well so an ammo box would be better than a sack.

Just been and bought an ammo box ! Very strong good seal etc.... but what insulation can I use in it that won't burn...? Would like to use sponge or something to protect the batteries...?

Do they?

i'll open the can of worms... it might be on entry forms and championship rules and in BRCA handbook but i've never been checked for using Lipo sacks or ever seen it enforced

most racers in my experience with offroad classes leave lipos bolted in the car when charging or have the spare set charging on the shiny branded pit mat/towel whilst another set are in the car... and that is the reality of it

I cannot comment for other sections, but I assure you that this is strictly enforced at the BRCA micro nationals

.....and so it should be!

Likewise - we strictly enforce the LiPo sack usage at BRCA 12th Nationals. I also ask people to make sure the pouches are closed. Those who were present during both our incidents are usually the ones making sure that is done - they've seen how much damage can be done to their other kit when an incident occurs!

Using sealed metal boxes there must be some vents in the box so that when the pressure builds ups the lid will not blow off - then you are back to square one. There must be some vents in the box to allow the expanding gases to escape, otherwise the lids will just come off. The vents need to be numerous and relatively large as there are a lot of gases given off.

Charging in a metal box is not the best plan. When these things do get into thermal runaway, they give off copious amounts of noxious gases. As the metal box has no access for sand to be tipped on the LiPo, the gases escape into the atmosphere. Not only do we have lithium in there, we also have the noxious fumes of the plastic box and the silicone wires. This goes on for quite a time. In an enclosed space like a sports hall it might mean having to get everyone out and then trying to clear the hall of the gases.

With the LiPo sack you can take immediate action to cut off the gases at source as quickly as possible. Once smothered, the source of any gas is stopped. The incident is well-contained and can be cleared up afterwards.

Please let's not scaremonger about clubs and insurance and events that we know nothing about. The precautions are simple and not costly. Just get three large buckets of kilne-dried sand, position them where everyone at the meeting knows their location and then dump the contents promptly on any incident that occurs. It might cost the driver a few quid in new kit, and the club a table to replace and some clearing up (sand gets everywhere!) but that's it in our experience - LiPo sacks and sand.

Linings for metal boxes - try a shop that sells wood-buring stoves. Micalite board and vemiculite bricks come in thicknesses from 25mm upwards and are usually rated above 800C. I am not sure how you cut them but will guess they are a bit like tiles - score and tap. They will be more than enough for a LiPo container. My Dad used to buy asbestos boards and cut them up for his fire safe, and he lived to be 94! Those were the days...

I'm glad to see some sections/clubs enforcing it... as it should be!

For indoor racing it is vital when the buildings etc we use for the hobby are just rented and big expensive halls with nice floors etc

I agree with scaremongering, but common sense and the facts are that any of these incidents could start major fires, harm people/property and if it was to be flung into public eye through media etc if a school was damaged it would be a massive blow for the hobby... clubs will soon find problems sourcing venues willing to allow them use or insurance willing to cover without unaffordable premiums.

It is all our responsibilities as individuals to be safe, our hobby and BRCA is run by same likeminded enthusiasts and we shouldn't wait for these incidents to take preventative measures or argue/flaunt the rules in the name of mostly small costs compared to our race kit and bravado.

I can't see a lot of racers wanting to use ammo boxes unless they have fancy paint jobs and brand logos sprayed on them to look 'cool' but as a storage solution at home outside the sport they are a good idea.

it seems to be these incidents are commonly caused by charging issues, personally chargers should be designed to do one job i/e just charge lipos and seperate chargers for Nimh's etc but that is too late to even entertain. It is user error if a charger changes settings with a reset and doesn't check before hitting the go button.

have any of these incidents been down to faulty good condition homologated lipos charged at 1c as recommended?

why are we allowing swollen lipos to be used at meetings?

why haven't we got a list of 'safe' lipo charging sacks?

why are distributors/shops allowed to sell us the sacks that are not up to the job or do not contain any fire suitably and just delaying or making the incident worse?

it seems to be these incidents are commonly caused by charging issues, personally chargers should be designed to do one job i/e just charge lipos and seperate chargers for Nimh's etc but that is too late to even entertain. It is user error if a charger changes settings with a reset and doesn't check before hitting the go button.

have any of these incidents been down to faulty good condition homologated lipos charged at 1c as recommended?

yes,as ed`s dad i know what went on with his fire, all we want is that racers charge there li-po`s in a sack so that if anything goes wrong you can deal with it.
for the record, the charger was a high end li-po charger, with near new cells, charged at 6 amps, with-in the 1c
all the talk about li-po sacks not doing there job is incorrect, the heat produced is very high, with-out the pouch, at best they would be looking for a new home, at worst lets not go there,
we are still trying to find out what caused this fire, if we can but lets be honest we have all charged out of the sack, in the home and at the track, why does it have to be enforced , we should all take the safety of our selves and others and not have to watch as others walk round and check.
we certainly will and if this thread does anything it will open racers eyes as to what can happen
xtreme

I think the major point is that there are different brands/types of containers sold on market as safety charging holders and from what has been said some of them will lose threads or velcro seals quickly in event of a fire inside and not contain the fire as well or could cause further issues by spreading burning debris.

In my eyes what this really means is that we need testing done to separate the best containment sacks/boxes from the weaker types/models/brands and then make sure our hobby community know that buying and using sack X is more sensible/safer than buying sack Y

We can pretty much assume that all the containers will be manufactured in China and just have various brands stuck on them for the resale companies but they need testing

I'd like to think the distributors and importers etc would actually be human enough to accept this and any results from destruction testing... if a safety product is weaker then they shouldn't be selling them

Your points are interesting, Freckly, but the issue here is personal responsibility as Ed's Dad has so carefully said. There are lots of products on the market that are tested to within an inch of their lives. Everything from aircraft to the humble toaster is tested, yet things still go wrong. The issue is what are you doing to make sure that risks are mitigated or avoided, not what someone else is doing.

If you are worried about using LiPos and 'untested' products then I suggest you find another hobby. Distributors and importers state on their products exactly what they will and will not do, so none of this should come as a surprise to anyone. Never, anywhere has anyone claimed that LiPo sacks will contain the fire absolutely. As Ed's Dad says, without the sack the risks were higher.

May I point out the error of fact in your last posts? LiPo sacks do not claim to contain debris or to spread debris. They simply claim to be able to hold a LiPo during charging and that doing so reduces risks. This is true for both types in the fires we have. Our experience is that one type does it better than the other. Since no degree of containment is claimed, no degree of performance can be deduced from the manufacturer's description. Please state your evidence that these all these containers are made in China - I have not found anything to support that.

There is no evidence that these incidents were caused by charging issues or charging above 1C. The problem is that once the incident occurs, one of the first casualties is the charger and the second thing is that it is usually disconnected by someone in the false belief that this will stop the fire. Once the incident is over, the information the charger might give us is lost from one of these two causes.

(Another tip - don't waste any time disconnecting the charger. A LiPo fire is a thermal runaway caused by the burning of the lithium. When it starts a short circuit inside the battery is inevitable at which point the charger is doing nothing to help or hinder the incident. In some case that sort circuit might blow a fuse in the charger, or damage its internal circuits. Lithium reacts with oxygen, so once started the fire is self-fulfilling. Until all the lithium is consumed, or the oxygen supply cut off (hence the sand) the fire will not go out on its own.)

If you would like to set up a qualified testing regime please go ahead. Otherwise we cannot reasonably test these products since we do not have a qualified set of circumstances that they are supposed to be tested against. I am sure that distributors and manufacturers would be pleased to accept your results providing they were scientifically researched and carried out.

I appreciate what you are trying to achieve here, but your posts are not in the least helpful to those of us trying to get the right advice to racers. Assumptions are useless and most unhelpful, bad facts even worse. It is not the manufacturers, distributors, retailers or BRCAs problem, it is our problem and we as users have to deal with it ourselves as best we can.

Xtreme - like you we have no evidence that leads to the root cause of the fires we saw. Like you both were using chargers that were not at the bottom end of the market, and like you the cells were of good specification from known manufacturers/ distributors. As stated above, any help from charger settings were lost when the incidents (and not a small quantity of sand!) wrecked the chargers.

My only clue to what might be happening was unearthed during the Sony/Dell/Apple computer fires of 2006. During that investigation it was revealed that the manufacturing process cannot prevent tiny metal fragments being in the lithium/polymers. It was speculated that if these migrate when the batteries get warm, they can puncture the separators and short circuit.

I stress I have no evidence for this but it does fit with the random nature of these incidents. We are pushing things way beyond a simple domestic-usage cell. Even at 1C we are charging modern cells at 6A to 7A!

We still cannot say what causes these incidents, so we have to mitigate the risks. LiPo pouches are the best means we know at present for charging at the races. Storing in a ventilated tin at home helps with any storage concerns. Making sure your charger is on a LiPo program with the right cell count and charge rate before you start charging, as well as closing the pouch as well as possible, all reduce risk. Finally, make sure you know where the sand bucket is.

I hope Ed gets better soon and is not put off our sport. If you do find out anything more about your incident I would be grateful if you could share information.

here is pete's favourite product, watch the video. lots of smoke yes, but seems to be no flames


http://www.oople.com/forums/showthre...ht=lipo+bunker


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...unker-main.jpg

Yup, don't want to be in a room when that goes off!! Note the vents, and imagine what might happen if your cells are in a sealed metal box...

because there are no fumes with a sack?!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw8jb1KmAG8

Nope, plenty of fumes with a sack. Because you cannot get to the source of the fumes and put out the fire that creates them. As Mark testified above, our LiPo fires were out way before they would have naturally gone out because we could get to them and stop them. With a metal bunker you can't get to the source. The fumes on that video go on for over 35 seconds, ours were out within ten.

In both our cases the remains of the LiPos were substantially intact. When you open the bunker all you have is 'ashes'. What we did was to stop the fumes at source as fast as possible, something you cannot do when the source is isolated in the metal box.

but al least there is no way velcro can melt, smoke is vented up and more controlled than a bag, and you aint going to loose ur house to smoke, but fire you could easy do.

sorry pete but im going to pick up on something here
if there in a sealed bag, how did you get to the source?
your own admission says the bag was NOT sealed and flames shot out!

there is as much chance of smothering the "bunker" than a sealed correctly bag!

as i said before, an ammo box with the charge cables routed in through a intumescant stuffing gland is way superior to a lipo sack for charging in and also for storage. i will probably get slated for saying this again by the person who called me a cock for suggesting it before but charging in a fireproof container superior to a lipo sack should be legal in brca rules. oh and without having to pay an extra £50 for a brca approved one...... ammo boxes are superb for storing, just add some hard foam cut to size and with cutouts for your cells and you wont beat it.

If that's a concern: poke two holes in the sealed metal box and seal the holes with something that melts or burns away in contact with smoke or heat (Polystyrene/PS, Silicon Sealant, Polycaprolactone/PCL (thermoplastic that melts around 60 degrees, so it's easy to apply/seal). That way smoke can escape instead of pressure building up.

To be honest though, I think the seals of an ammo box will not hold off overpressures a burning LiPo pack might create when burning. It would need testing, and I would say to prevent any risks, it would be best to make a it possible to open the box remotely (you never know what happens when a fresh air supply enters the equation).

As for someone's question about flame-retardant insulation: When a battery goes, they'll all go - I'd say it's only to prevent electrical conductivity with the box itself. Any insulation (no matter how flammable) will not add much to the intensity of the fire I'd say :lol: