When is a 2wd not a 2wd
 

having watched some recent racing in 2wd there seems to be a trend towards running a 4wd car with just the driveshafts removed but the rest of the drive train left in tact. this seems to be a distinct advantage in high grip situations especially when the diff is still in place as you can see the car fly and dip like a 4wd as well as being far smoother into the turn. imho it would work in a gyro style (but could be wrong). what is everyones take on this and should the brca ban it. if so then how ???

minimal
 

as long as only 2 wheels are driving then I don't see a problem.

A 4wd running as a 2wd has disadvantages as well like kick up at the front and weight issues etc etc etc.

If you ban a 4wd with shafts removed, then you would need to ban all conversions like the DB1 as that's similar. then if you ban conversions would that mean vega centro etc come in to a ban..??

Personally a 2wd is a car that has 2 wheels driven regardless of the drive train.

simple.:D

You can't use the DB1 as an example of a 4wd!! It's simply a '2wd' car as it has NO front drive at all or even a front gear housing, it's a conversion like all others.

I think in another section a rule was changed to say a 2wd car can only have one gear housing, but I may be wrong :confused:

+1
 

Damn right dude 2wd is 2wd
It's driver skill not technology that creates winners
Don't need more rules
You just need more skill

Does that mean if you break a 4wd drive shaft you have to pull off as its no longer 4wd?

What about running 2wd in a 4wd race? Break a center drive shaft and you have a 2wd.

People do run 2wd's in the 4wd class at 1/10th nationals...certainly not the norm, or frequently, more likely when circumstances have lead them there so they can at least keep racing on the day....and the only rule that comes in to play then (to my knowledge) is the minimum weight rule!

Clearly there is a potential disadvantage to it, particularly in low grip scenarios, so it's far less desirable! But the gap between 2wd and 4wd performance is not what it used to be when the grip is good...

Interestingly, or not maybe, the micro section had a season where 4wd's with front drive shafts or front diff/front centre drive shaft removed became dominant in their 2wd class. The rules were subsequently written to state that only a stacked gearbox transmission was allowed in the 2wd class.

The argument here was that the disconnected front end of the transmission did give an advantage, and in fact I think at one point the rumours were that a one way diff was fitted backwards to give some sort of braking advantage or something (although I might have made that up completely from snippets of many random trackside chats that happened at that time about it) but you get the point!

I'm not sure that rule stills stands entirely, but for me there were/are other factors at play there....

The 2wd class in the micro section was, and still is, lacking in production race cars to fit into the class...so the rule book is being developed all the time in the hope it promotes the class and generates enough industry interest for manufacturers to take it up properly and create a fair class of 2wd micro racing...

At that point, the 4wd class had some reasonably well developed race cars competing...they maxed the cars out on wheelbase and track width, and were competing very closely as it was, and still is the main micro class.

The 2wd class at that time had no 2wd 'race' cars...only a few randomly built/converted 'toy' cars that happened to fit very loosely into the scrutineering box. Pretty sure Chunk (the first proper BRCA rule designed 2wd micro race car) didn't quite exist at that point.

Those 2wd 4wd cars with their developed design/proportions wiped the floor with the other 2wd's...so it was deemed unfair. The result was the Chunk coming to the front of it, and hopefully a more serious class that manufacturers can design properly for now...if they can find a market to sell them to!

You cant group the DB1, Vega or Centro into this as they are a dedicated 2wd. They have no front gearbox, no front shafts etc.

When is a 2wd not a 2wd - Poll
 

Lets have a vote....

I voted no - I am a traditionalist and dont want to see the death of the 2wd designed car.

T

Bandwagon.com

Until the BRCA state 'Only cars marketed and sold as 2wd maybe used' then that's the way it will be.

Might as well open your debate (?) up to using a 2wd in a 4wd class providing the weight is right. Haven't got a 4wd?, don't race in that class....

Two sides to every story.

BTW the Xb4 in 2wd rocks! :thumbsup::thumbsup: (as do the K1's and the B44.2!)

Correct, all those a hybrid but pure 2wd based.

Will there be a follow up poll asking "should mid motor cars be allowed in 2wd?" :lol:

ha ha ha ha I was waiting for that :woot:

Having said all this not everyone has the money to spend on 4wd. I personally don't want to see 2wd go it's a good class aswell for new comers to start.

The simple answer is to amend the rules to limit the distance the motor is allowed to be from the axel line (ie where the driveshafts and diff are).
You would not affect the postion of the motor ie mid or rear engined but would stop extreme front mid engined 2wd's.

The only problem with this is it limits innovation, but innovation does increase costs, not a simple question if you look at it in a bit of detail. Could maybe have a differant weight or limint tyre sizes, but this usually added cost too.

jK

Or, 'lud, you could counter with a great car that can be used as a 2wd and a 4wd competitively, reducing the need to for two cars?.

This is the XB4, K1 and the B44.2.... maybe others.

I don't get this at all. I may of read this wrong but is a purpose designed 4wd buggy with the front drive removed faster than a purpose designed 2wd buggy running as designed. ?.

If people would convert Touring cars and race them against 1/12 scales it would cause an upset to some my view on this would be im sure we would like to see no class getting messed about just have a nice time racing

Or simply keep each class completely seperate as they were always intended to be.
What we have now is not far from being an open class. Surely not what was ever intended.

Threads merged. Some posts which no longer make sense have been deleted.

Interesting Thread,
Especially coming back from the National where many of the Top teams and racers in the country was racing 4wd cars with the front drive removed!!! Still it was 1 and 2 for proper 2wd cars.
It was also funny to see 4wd cars on Sunday running 2wd wheels. I think 8 out of 10 A finalist ran this way!!!
Will we go back to the old days where there was only one class of racing?

I do agree Brian, truly do but until/if/when the rule changes, it will carry on. Looking like the Schumacher team drivers are using the K1 in 2wd now. Surely this means 2wd cars have not been designed right.

Even though I have an XB4 I needed to get one as my fellow club drivers were leaving me behind track wise....

See you Sunday for a chat!!!

Neil

Anyway, it's all Glenn Westwood's fault... :woot:

Was this a specific Stoffold thing, or something we will see more of at Nationals.

I didnt notice this at the Southport National so why the change??

I admire your honesty Neil. While the rules allow it then the choice is there. Glen's fault?. He is faster than me with wheels bolted to the kit box.
See you Sunday.

Personally the poll dosent go far enough as long as there is no diff in the front and no drive belt or shaft going forwards from the spur gear it should be ok .otherwise manufacturers will bring purpose built kits out with 4wd geometry then it becomes more expensive for the racer
Trekkker

When other club guys got the XB4 my normal 'position' within was challenged, ie people below me caught and over took my times with easy, and ones I could race with, got a lap quicker. So needed to change as well.

Of course SHRCCC is high grip Astro, all clubs will differ.

Glenn started it all, burn the witch! :woot:

nationals wise it started at broxtowe and 2-3 were in the A straight away think it was 5-5 at stotfold.

definitely something the brca needs to sort one way or the other as can carry a lot of extra pace over a conventional 2wd. if we are allowed then we will all start to do it on the higher grip tracks or ban it straight away (not sure how but do like the only 1 gearbox casing or even one mount (in dex410 case) for a gearbox allowed) of only cars designed as a 2wd can be used.

i do know this has put the brca in a none nice position as to how to rule this which i know i wouldnt want to have to rule on

Sorry all, can someone clarify what exactly this is about.

Is it that people are running front driveshafts and diff, and just no center shaft/belt, so they get a front diff action but no drive?

Or is a 4wd simply running without any front drivetrain actually quicker?

I am not sure i am against it anyway to be honest, nationals aren't full, rc costs a fortune, maybe having one car do both classes is no bad thing!?

Or is the worry that next some clever soul will produce a 2wd only car but with front diff etc?

If the rule needs changing, I'd keep it simple, front wheels must freely move independently of each other and the rear, both forwards and backwards.

4wd cars without front drive shafts, with or without centre train and/or diff.

Seem to be removing the driveshafts at the front and leaving the rest..

Anyone say how there better? More weight? More weight over the front? Geometry?

personally i think its a massive loop hole and effectively a legal way of cheating.

That said, if others are doing it and it meant i wasn't competitive then i would do it myself too

I'd say it's actually more 50/50 for those leaving in/not leaving in the front diff

Personally cant see the issue here I use an xb4 as a 2wd I use none of the front drive train components so its a 2wd only the rear wheels drive. Would this poll be on here if people were running front wheel drive? Get over it move with the times the brca has no grounds to ban it the rules are not being broken

The thing is it only really works on very high grip, any moisture on the track and they are useless. So now if you want all the options for the different conditions you need a 4wd, a traditional mid motor 4 gear AND and 2/4wd hybrid. So for most people that's going to cost even more, especially if you have another set of electrics in the hybrid so you can easily throw the mid-4 down if it rains before your heat.

People at the weekend were talking about the front diff acting 'like a gyro' or something similar, personally I can't see how that is the case with all the heavy bits of the diff being so close to it's centre. Maybe if the front diff was geared up to spin at crazy high RPM, IMO it's just the same as having a big chunk of dead weight on the front of the car.

I can't see any reason why it should be banned really, as technically you're not breaking any rules by doing it. It just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the rules/sport to me.

Mr Lucas straight in with a moody one :lol::lol::lol:

Well mr dudman I think you'll find all the people complaining are just annoyed that they have been beaten by something that shouldn't really work

Probably less weight shift, mid 4 gear cars get a lot of torque reaction from the motor. Going to shaft drive puts that across the car which seems less noticeable (maybe the prop shaft helps cancel the reaction). I think the K1 runs the motor the opposite way to a 4 gear car, so against the direction of the wheels meaning less overall torque reaction.

I'm not sure trying to ban '4wd designed' cars from 2wd will work, surely if they work then dedicated 2wd versions will be on their way e.g. TM2.

Personally I don't really like the feel of the large torque reaction from mid 4 gear cars anyway and I think if anything the 'less weight shift' mid motor cars feel slightly closer to good old rear motor.

Agreed.

It actually nearly rained just before the last leg of the A final at Stotfold - that would have been intresting.

Can't see Losi, Schumacher, Yokomo, X ray, Associated and the rest allowing this. Its a whole seperate market for them