Drivers frustration!!!
 

Guys I have added a few points to be noted, all additions are in Blue so it is clear what I have added
Firstly I am not having a pop at the A finalist!
I am just asking for all to be treated EQUALLY!

Don't get me wrong I appreciate that A Finalists have worked VERY hard for years to get to where you are and your acheivments and others are striving to follow.

I have ran a club and if any of you attended you will have seen that it was run well judging by the feedback I have always had, and so believe you me i know the effort it takes to pull a meeting of this size off.




Hi guys & fellow racers:thumbsup:
I am using the term 'A' finalist loosely as the higher level drivers and nothing is aimed directly at any single individual

I think we all know what I'm asking, if not I will spell it out.
A question for all

We all travel to race meetings, some further than others
We all pay the same fee's to race
We all make the same effort to win our races

So WHY are 'A' finalists treated like royalty?
And the lower finalists treated like second rate citizens?

Why are the 'A' finals commentated on start to finish, all drivers know from start to finish what is going on! who is leading, who is lapping, who is the back marker....

On the other hand the lesser finalists are less commentated on so they are left to their own guessing devices on who is lapping, leading or loosing, where I feel they should have more clarity in spelling out who is the leader and the back marker etc as they have less experience.

'A' Finalists get marshaled in seconds or its curtains for the marshal in question :( but on the other hand the lower heat drivers get strolled over to when stranded:mad::cry:

Attitudes on the rostrum?
I have had my sons penalized for calling a marshal when their car has been stranded for 10seconds or more and no marshal has arrived to help them, on the other hand there are 'A' finalists shouting on the rostrum and using abusive language and nobody bats an eyelid!!!:mad: or even worse turns the other way:thumbdown:

The way I see it is if you are unable or to busy running a race meeting to commentate on the lower finals then you should treat ALL other finalist THE SAME!

If you are too busy to pay attention to rostrum etiquette then there should be a referee

Why aren't ALL competitors treated equally?
Why is there 'NO LEVEL PLAYING FIELD???'

Please don't get me wrong but there are some top drivers who put in a great effort to marshall to their best etc, but unfortunately they are in a minority.

If anybody knows me or have met me will know that I love to promote and help the lesser drivers or especially younger drivers, I will push hard and support anybody promoting youngsters in the sport as they are the future of the sport.

They are tomorrows 'A' finalists, but if we treat them like second rate citizens then they will soon walk away from the sport in frustration.
NOBODY was born in the 'A' final !!!
We all started the same way, on our roofs:woot:

If they see 'A' finalists now on the rostrum shouting abuse or even just shouting they will follow by example, which I hope ALL will agree we don't want to happen in this great sport.

Guys please leave your views and replies on this post so the powers at be take heed.

Sam Mughal

Sam, I understand your frustration and it goes from A-Z in our hobby/sport sometimes believe me.

There are set rules at all clubs regarding behaviour on the rostrum and I believe most top drivers to be awesome marshals!

As far as commentary goes, at Stone we try out best to commentate on all races (we do all finals), however, the main reason we focus on higher heats/A final is that the majority are watching and want to know. Sorry if that offends, pal.

Finally, the 'Ref' comment is extremely hard to comment on. We had a ref at all our winter series and not everyone will agree with the decisions made even against our own. Unfortunately due to comments face to face and behind backs this is the hardest position to find volunteers to fill!!!

Matt

If ONLY
 

Quote
As far as commentary goes, at Stone we try out best to commentate on all races (we do all finals), however, the main reason we focus on higher heats/A final is that the majority are watching and want to know. Sorry if that offends, pal.

Hope your in the sun with your controller in one hand and a cold one in the other:woot:

Firstly, sorry Darren for today. Was on holiday and only got back yesterday and didn't want to disturb you. I accept the penalty and will sort the relevant penalty.

Sam,

It is quite disturbing that foul language etc is being used at any meeting!! You are correct that a finalist's should be more etiquette. But this also answers one of your questions why the a finalists receive slightly more attention. (Its the race most people want to see)

Marshalling is something that has become pretty poor in most meetings over the years, this is from all abilities and not just the top 10 etc. maybe marshal penalties is one way of looking at this?? But the main fact to anyone should be 'marshal how you would like to be marshalled' if you can't do any better then no need to comment.

Commentary is another chore for the race organisers, yes everyone would like to hear it but it is not always possible. But, I am sure if people out there are willing to have a go then speak to the race organisers and I am pretty sure they would let you do it.

If you are not happy with the language used at some meetings then first point of call is the race director. This should not be tolerated, but if they are not aware nothing can be done.

Hope this has helped with your thoughts and be assured its not all about the top 10.

John

Won't comment on today's individual race meeting issues as that's down to the race director.

However some need to realise its toy cars, not life and death. You had Streeter, Westwood and Sadler in the A final all good mates but Rubin' n Racing hard, all fair and equal. Few strops today and its tough to call for the RD with out help.... However funny to us mere mortals :woot:

Roger M came up with a great idea a few weeks back, reward the winner of the H final with zero marshalling but they stay on the rostrum to call lapping cars / address contact etc so the commentator can commentate. Seems sensible to me. This would follow on through all finals.

Should there be a regional referee at each and every round? Hard to choose, let along judge. Perhaps it could be a paid position? I'd pay an extra 50p on a race fee!

However my personal final (D) was very well commentated and ruled upon, but it was very clean with some great drivers, for that matter so was heat 6 so well done to everyone I raced against today :thumbsup:

Personally I love commentating on the lower finals, it's where the fun and action is and also a bit of banter :thumbsup: and I think the commentating today was very good (Darren :thumbsup:).

Ouch
 

Yes I would have to agree but that goes on at a few clubs , I was a little frustrated that nobody was pulling over for faster drivers in the heats ( not sure if theres a rule for that but at shrcc we are told by race controll when faster drivers are coming throo so we can let them pass)
This was my first regional so I have no comparisons and I had a great day, I enjoyed the track and the racing :thumbsup:and I will get the hobbit back for nocking me off the track in my final, or should I call him the poison dwarf now :p:

Please understand
 

They don't get long enough to get warm! :thumbsup:

Seriously Sam, I wasn't attempting to 'big up' stone, I merely wanted you to understand how hard it is. We have a LARGE team behind us.

You've obviously posted about today because of the section you're in. Let me tell you that DMS (DARREN BOYLE) give 110% to running meeting and in fact the actual Regional Series that sooooooo many take for granted (not you!). Please speak with the club and say your thoughts to them as you know all to well the hard work it takes and is so easily undone! :(

Want me to smack his bottom on Thursday and get Keith to end him to bed with no tea Duncan? :D

Totally agree with Spener

'marshal how you would like to be marshalled'

Its a shame there are few that take that attitude
As Matt said there are some top drivers who are awsome marshals

Its all about 'A LEVEL PLAYING FEILD'

I like this suggestion
reward the winner of the H final with zero marshaling but they stay on the rostrum to call lapping cars / address contact etc so the commentator can commentate. Seems sensible to me. This would follow on through all finals.

The only hinderence may be their experience to keep an keen eye on who is where

Evening all

Just wanted to say thanks to Darren and team.. for the great meeting today. Well Kev Hunt for well deserved win :thumbsup:

Sam in reference to your comments i understand your points and believe there is always the opportunity to improve meetings at any club, myself as chairman of Torch, im always trying to give the best possible experience for racers, but I can never make everyone happy, the pressures on running meetings and getting everything right is impossible, also being a racèr this also adds to the demands on running meetings,

I was pitting near the race control today and not once did I see Darren have the chance to work on his car and enjoy meeting. The job of Race Director is not rewarding...

A "suggestion" that would support Race Directors and the atmospere at the regionals going forwards is a selected group of commentators will cover all finals going forwards. A selection of confident and experienced racers to commentate, as per national standard. This would be expected at all regionals anyone could support....

Great "suggestion"! :thumbsup:

Got my vote buddy ;)

Yes please :lol:

I commentated on EVERY SINGLE final (and heats) today from A to I (inc the open) treating all exactly the same (with the exception of annoucing the ten A finalists onto the rostrum for leg one) and then come home to this from a dad with a beef because his son came of worse in a "race tussle" (no not a back marker - I have since seen a video of the race taken by someone else and it was 1st and 2nd that came together). Then when I did not wish to enter into heated debate about it since I had the "rest" of the meeting to run gets the hump about it all and vents his anger on a public forum like a true keyboard warrior. To be accused of not treating all finals the same and not commentating on the lower finals is nothing short of insulting to be honest esp[ecially coming form a club member who was asked to do one job all day and he got that wrong....

As for the shouting/swearing from the rostrum, several instances have been reported to me and all info will be passed on to the regional rep to deal with as he sees fit. All I can add is that with the volume of the PA (of which one of the speakers was a foot away from me) much of the other noise was drowned out by the commentary, if I had of heard any shouting myself personally I WOULD have penalised it, fact is I didnt.

As for marshals being penalised, NO MARSHAL was penalised all day, only four instances of either bad driving or track cutting which all incurred penalties of either 10 seconds or a stop go were applied.

Now if only the rest of our club members who attended today had only put as much effort into helping the few (5) who did stay behind to pack all the track away on their own until nearly 8pm, maybe we would not have somthing to REALLY moan about...

I would also like to thank Darren and his Team for a very enjoyable meeting. Ta.

My two penny worth. I have been running in this region for a number of years, and in all those years there has never been a need for Ref's, and the marshal police. It seems that only in the past couple of years, that in both these areas the level has dropped...... Personally I think all the clubs involved in the region should be policing these area's more, because fundamentally those drivers who are bad marshals/using foul language, this all reflects back on that club, and come the end of the year when we all sit down and pick regional venues, this could be a deciding factor.....

P

regional
 

Sam dont get me wrong here m8 as i dont want to fall out with anybody here but i have to say i think its a bit out of order to put this in a public forum for all to see i understand how you feel as ive been there and have seen many similar instances over the years.

as for all the other bitching and backbiting ive heard and seen today i find it childish and quite frankley pathetic what these people/idiots seem to forget is that we worked bloody hard throughout the weekend to get this event up & running and when you get nothing but critisism for the venue/club/track its a bit of a kick in the teeth and i take it as a bit of a personal insult . This minority of people would do well to remember that if it was not for people like Darren and the dms members giving up their time to run these events they would not have a regional series to compete in.:mad:

Well, I will say, that having to marshal more than my share of races - no offense intended here - but there's but only so much energy I'm going to put into a lower finals, where I often can't keep track of the number of times a driver crashes per lap in comparison to the a-finals in which I can count the total number of crashes in the entire race by the entire field on one hand. I'm sorry, but the lower finals wear out their welcome with the marshals by the midway point of the race.

Yes, we all get frustrated with marshals - but the best advice I ever heard given was, "If you don't crash, you won't need marshaling."


And, if you want credit on the rostrum prior to the race - MAKE THE A-FINAL.
Nobody in the crowd cares who's in the F-final (except the F-finalists and their parents). Getting "announced" is a privilege, a privilege earned. This ain't kiddie football, where everyone on the last place team gets a trophy.

As for the 'Keyboard Warrior' comment don't make this personnel Darren!
And the comment 'esp[ecially coming form a club member who was asked to do one job all day and he got that wrong.... '

I was asked to start the practice run, I announced the start order and clicked the button. ANYTHING WRONG?
I saw a rouge PT, I spotted who's it was and assigned it to their car. ANYTHING WRONG?
At the end of that practice I confirmed with the driver that it was the correct PT and he confirmed it. ANYTHING WRONG?
I informed the race director at the end of the race that I had done this, but he probably didn't hear me as he was busy having a go at me complaining that I didn't call the driver names as the bleeps went, but I had already announced the start order. ANYTHING WRONG?
I would urge the driver concerned to reply to this post and the situation as it happened.

I spent my saturday with my sons helping to build the track and was looking forward to the race meeting only to be abused after it, and you expected me to stay behind and help at the end????

Quote Darren Boyle
'Then when I did not wish to enter into heated debate about it since I had the "rest" of the meeting to run gets the hump about it all and vents his anger on a public forum

As for the comment 'dad with a beef' watch the video it was the car 2nd from last and not second in the race as per the little commentary you did do!!!'

All I did at the end of the race is SUGGESTED to Darren that he comment more during the racing so drivers know the situation ON ALL FINALS, I got a very blunt answer. I have the video and can post it for all to watch so the situation can be SEEN & HEARD.
There was nothing heated about the situation, I made a suggestion

This post wasn't about this but it is where it has been taken:mad:

I didn't want this personnel Darren but its the way you have taken it.

My sincere apologies to others to have to read this but I won't be insulted at a meeting or on a forum.
I will clarify the situation for all to see as per this comment.

Sam, you have come onto a public forum, posted in the section "DMS Model Car Club" (not a general section to summarize all meetings/clubs), you have slated the race controller for being biased toward the A finalists and doing a bad job and that is me and me only and you then tell ME not to make it personal., please do me a favour!!

As for the "anything wrong" comments, at every single practice and qualifier yesterday every car was called off one by one (by name) to start each and every race, the one race you stepped in and did was not and hence no-one knew when to go, we dont use the automated voice for numbers for that reason, you hit the button and that was it. You had 10 drivers all confused as to what was going on and yes it was wrong, hence why I did not ask you to do anymore all day long. As for the PT issue for James I was not even referring to that, but you brought it up and yes it cost the guy his round 1 time as a result of undoing the work I had already done unbeknown to me by changing hsi PT number.....

Yes you did help on saturday as did around 20 others from the club (as it should be at a CLUB) but sadly along with around 14 others they were nowhere to be seen when all the leg work needed doing. Who do you think you are helpoing, me? NO you are helping the CLUB and your fellow club mates and they were all let down yesterday by MANY people who simply could not be bothered to give 20-30 mins to help out.

You say you suggest I commentate more, I did EVERY race, ask anyone who was there yesterday, some clubs dont do half the amount of races that I covered yesterday, yet you still moan, what on earth are you going on about?? Then you wonder why the answer was blunt (as I needed to start the next final).

With all due respect running a club night race in a village hall for 30-40 racers is not on the same level as an all day regional event with almost 100 racers present and it is not like I have being doing it for just a short while as you did, we have run meetings of this size for almost 18 years now.

Your son came of worse in a racing incident (and it was with 2nd place as I have already said and not second last) and you did not like it, so you take it out on race control like so many do.... I did a 12 hour day yesterday and very little of it was pleasure for me, to be honest sat at race control constant all day taking the abuse and moans that you get in that position is no fun and with the numbers we ended up with owing to the lovely weather outside I even had to put a few quid in out of my own pocket to ensure all the costs for the day were covered, so no that is not my idea of fun and commnets like these and the actions of the club members who all buggered off as soon as they raced make you wonder whether it is all worth it. If people did more to help and did less moaning maybe meetings would run better and everyone could get to enjoy them more, but same old story, we all like a moan but no-one likes to chip in when it is REALLY needed!!!

You know where to find me or how to contact me if you wish to take it up further.....

posting
 

If you care to look it was posted in the general section and was removed by gainsy, but he chose not to remove it from the dms section

At the end of the day you have posted it in the DMS section, and that is aimed at me personally and that is the thread where all the replies have been posted in. If you have or have not posted it elsewhere that is irrelavent. If you can do better Sam please be my guest you are most welcome to it...........

I do think something needs to be done about the abuse marshals get from some racers. Although i didn't attend yesterday I got a right mouthful off a racer at the last 4wd regional. Even if i'd been the worse marshall ever ( which i wasn't) i wouldn't expect to be spoken to like that. The problem always seems to be that race control doesn't hear or see these events so nothing can be done. I don't want to name names, but I suspect it is a small minority of racers that hurl abuse from the rostrum. Question is how can we stop these people ruining it for the rest of us?

With all due respect-and i'm not looking to start any wars here- I think the commentry was one of the better things on the day. At the end of the day Scotty Ernst wasnt available for our regional unfortunately but I thought Darren's was of a consistant high standard all day throughout all heats and Finals. On the handful of occassions Darren wasnt able to run race control and commentry, those he asked to assist also did the job well I thought. Ok, there was the slight mishap here and there, but steps were taken to rectify. no ones perfect (#halo)

There were alot of "issues" shall we say brought to race control yesterday, some relating to safety, some relating to racing. etc etc etc. Darren and the club team put effort into addressing these issues where possible regardless how big or small thay might have appeared. If the other racers could raise these issues then could this not have been a little less public? Respectfully I know you mentioned it to him after the run, but could this not have been raised again later in the day? there's a pm function here too! or we have a regional rep!:)

My point being is that we all take time out-away from our families and various obligations to race (indoors on a sunny day I might add!!!!!? whats that about!!! Typical blighty weather!). Dont get me wrong we're gonna get upset, heated and frustrated-we want to do well-kinda comes with the territory, but we all want to make our great hobby/sport/livelihood in some cases-better. All it takes is a little "contrustive" critisism, offered in the right manner to do that! :thumbsup:

I agree fully, to be clear though the majority of the abuse yesterday was from racer to racer along the rostrum (apart form the B final which was driver to marshal, I know this as I was in the race) but it was drivers taking each other out and then shouting at each other that caused the friction I was made aware of (A final and heat 10).

I have heard several versions of what happened and all info is being passed to the regional rep as we are asked to do.

Quite shocked to read all this this morning having had a great day out with my son yesterday at an extremely well organised and run meeting.

Sam, I truly understand you getting upset if you feel your sons have been treated unfairly but not sure this was the way to go about it on an open forum. Maybe next time give it 24 hours to cool off before you reach for the keyboard or give Darren a call or just have a chat next time you see him about how you can help?

I am sure Darren had a lot of help in the lead up to the meeting and saw others scrutineering, organising the drivers for practice and running the odd heat when Darren was racing but from what I saw he spent getting on for 10 hours solid running the meeting. To come home to this must truly be a kick in the teeth.

As for the marshalling point I see very little correlation between the performances of people’s marshalling and the final they qualify for. Seen plenty of kids in the lower finals sulking or gazing into space and missing crashed cars after their final goes badly just as I have seen some of the A finalists racing each other to crashed cars to marshal them as quickly as possible. Also seen the complete opposite.

I’m pretty sure all the finals yesterday had commentary which has not happened at all the regional rounds so far. It is however a really hard job to keep an eye on the whole track especially if you are also trying to run race control as well. This does however seem to be a consistent comment from drivers that they would like more of so I think it is upto each club to think how they can do better. I don’t think it can fall to the race controller to do it effectively – something along the lines of one person from the previous final doing it instead of marshalling might be the way ahead. I don’t think many of us really enjoy the sound of our own voices but I’d give it a go and hope to improve with practice. First person to complain about the commentary automatically gets put to the top of the list to do the job next:woot:


Real shame such a negative thread starts after such a good meeting:(


Rob

Your points hear are exactly what sam is unhappy about and proves the discrimination between the lower and upper heats that goes on in most clubs from drivers like you, maybee if your not fit enough to marshall one race all the way throo you should see a doctor.:p

I'm so glad I don't race where u do, sounds like a crap place, most people make the "F" final are kids an they're the future of this, if they start feeling left out an not appreciated u have to think are they gonna come back. Everyone gets treated the same, if u don't Marshall quick for someone why the hell should they for u!!!!!!!!!!!

Rob, thank you for the support and kind words and you echo how I feel EXACTLY.

Darren

Firstly, can I just say a massive thanks to Darren and the DMS club members who put on such a good meeting yesterday, well done to you all.

Secondly, this perception of 'discrimination' is a bit far-fetched. I saw young Joe Renton marshalling brilliantly at point 6 in the lower heats, and I also saw the guys in the top heat marshalling really quicky. If anything, the guys in the top heat are often, generally, better marshals as they observe the car better and can see when it's going to roll/tip etc, often before it happens and so they anticipate the crash and marshal quicker because of this.

I definitely felt like I got very good value from my £10 entry fee yesterday; I got a good amount of track time, and Darren and the club members kept me scrutineered and commentated on through the the day (heats as well as finals). The finals commentary (mine was the D Final) was particularly good as I was able to manage the gap I had to 2nd place. To say that the lower finalists are treated like second-rate citizens is quite frankly a slur on the efforts of the club yesterday.

Well done DMS, that was a fine meeting yesterday and I hope to be there next year for more good racing! :)

Completely agree on the comment "If you don't crash, you won't need marshaling."

However the rest of your post stinks to high heaven and I'm glad we do not race at a club you are at. Hobby is better off without the likes of you I'm affraid.

That's just the silly talk of people today that think their lads should get a trophy for their football team finishing in last place. It's ridiculous.
Sure they're "the future" - and when they make the A-finals, in the future, then they'll have their time in the spotlight. But let 'em earn it. Jeesh. :rolleyes:

Like I said before, if you want marshaled quick it's pretty simple DON'T CRASH so much and you won't need marshaling. It just seems that those that do the most complaining about marshaling are the ones doing the most crashing. How many times is a marshal to be expected to rush and hurry to marshal the same car in the same corner lap after lap?


I'm sorry, these threads where people complain about the race directors not doing what they perceive as "their job" are just ridiculous. As I used to tell new racers that thought they knew how it should be done, "If you think it so easy, then you're more then welcome to come up and show us how to do it." Volunteer to help out chaps, get in the trenches and see what it's like, or quit your complaining. Otherwise, show Darren some common courtesy and talk to him directly if you have a problem, but calling him out on a public forum just ain't cool.

As many times as necessary in 5 minutes plus warm up? I marshalled a few finals other than my own yesterday too, no big deal, but I didn't go any faster or slower because of who was on the rostrum.

Having Read this I think its a little unfair as I said to you yesterday Sam. You Cant pin it all on Darren.

However... If at every regional it was said that "not letting faster cars through" "Bad/Slow Marshalling" will come with a penalty then I guarantee things will improve!!

In my opinion yesterdays venue was not upto Regional standards as the track with 10 cars on was too busy and unsafe. I was hit by 4 cars at table height whilst sitting in the Pits.. If it were a small child that would have been face/head height and would have cause great damage to them. (my Iphone screen was damaged )

I think at regional level we need race referee's but commentary for the A final is all that is needed.

THIS IS MY 2P before I get slated

Who said anything about getting a trophy? They should get marshalled all the same, does everyone where u race have this same attitude?

Well jay regards to things being unsafe is a little silly really you chose to pit were you did an did nothing but moan about all day, but on the other hand people that live glass house shouldn't throw stone an look at there own behaviour first, regards to marshalling as a top driver if you didn't crash you wouldn't need marshalling mate.

Nasty
 

please inform us of your local tack so I can avoid it like the plague

Sorry Dmjp but your wrong here. It does not matter where anyone sits at an event like this as it should be safe. It is in fact your "duty to care" to ensure the safety of your patrons. We were all in the pitting area, an area that should be safe. At the first instance of this happening it should have been looked at and rectified. If there was an accident in this area after the first time it happens than you have shown negligence and quite probably liable for prosecution.

Now don't get me wrong I actually enjoyed the event, the commentary was good, I was also in the F final and I'm not a kid, I'm 41, so mr Robbo can to be polite "jog on sonny".

As with events like this we all as a group of RC racers, all need to learn from it and make the improvements for next year to make them better and ultimately safer (where reasonable practicable) ;):thumbsup:

My Sons
 

Guys if you have read any of the posts that I have written there is no mention of my kids been ill treated or unfairly treated, I have not mentioned any names or pointed any fingers, Darren has decided to direct it all at himself and mention names etc at his own free will(at which point I have replied).
If any body knows me and has seen me with my kids at a race meeting they will know I am the first to penalize them if they are in the wrong. However if they are not wrong I will do what I hope all of you who are parents out there would, that is to support my kids

I would appreciate if my sons are left out of this as I made the comments not them!:mad: and I stand by every word.

Once again the post is about
A LEVEL PLAYING FEILD!

And NOTHING ELSE!
If others wish to make assumptions and accusations feel free to do so

That's a really silly reply ! Tbh I chose the spot where we pitted without thinking cars would leave the track like they did . ( my mistake !) just aswell we pitted there instead of a kid ! As I've said to Darren I enjoyed the day but this comment has annoyed me ! Regards Glenn Westwood

That's the way you're acting.
If you want to get marshaled the same, DON'T CRASH SO MUCH! :woot:

I don't lol I hope the people at your club read this an see your attitude towards other people that aren't as good you as unfortunately its people like you that don't help the sport and its future, where is your local track by the way?